Crown

RC:

Last weekend, I drove over 340 km in my Performante and the fuel tank still had 5 litres left.  In the Taycan Turbo S, the fun would have stopped at 200-220 km with the same driving style.

1500kg car against 2200kg car...

GT Lover, Porsche fan

991.2 GT3 manual

Cayenne GTS 2014

That is some awesome consumption. Wow. The ‘you know what’ would have used about 16kwh for 100km. But driving styles can impact that a lot. Someone was having a lot of fun in that Porsche. I would not dismiss it based on that because if you need range you just back off a lot.  
Perhaps some models are not ready for prime time.  I still Iove my turbo but now I’m looking at pulling the motor to fix another coolant leak. Third time for this.  

it was our usual test drive with cars. Here ist the route in kurviger https://kurv.gr/5drpd

Our driving style is spirited to say at least ;) or full on someone would say and has nothing to do with real driving situations, but when we do our group drives we are not that far off so i expect to do arround 250km in the car (maybe less). Drove the route with may different cars. It has highway, small bends, uphill, downhill sections and is not very frequented so you get a good impression of the capabilities.

btw. when I do this driving style in a Tesla I am in 10-15 minutes in limp mode so....

hunterone:

it was our usual test drive with cars. Here ist the route in kurviger https://kurv.gr/5drpd

Our driving style is spirited to say at least ;) or full on someone would say and has nothing to do with real driving situations, but when we do our group drives we are not that far off so i expect to do arround 250km in the car (maybe less). Drove the route with may different cars. It has highway, small bends, uphill, downhill sections and is not very frequented so you get a good impression of the capabilities.

btw. when I do this driving style in a Tesla I am in 10-15 minutes in limp mode so....

 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

the-missile:

RC:

Last weekend, I drove over 340 km in my Performante and the fuel tank still had 5 litres left.  In the Taycan Turbo S, the fun would have stopped at 200-220 km with the same driving style.

1500kg car against 2200kg car...

OK, let`s take my GLC63 S then… 

Range is at least 300 km when I floor it...usually more in the 350 km region. Same thing here: 5 minutes and the fuel tank is full again. No difference.

I compared the Taycan Turbo S to the Performante because the Performante has a pretty high fuel consumption when driven hard.

I believe that EV performance cars will have a breakthrough once there will be a battery tech breakthrough but right now, paying 240k EUR (Taycan Turbo S) for a horrible range and one hour charging time? Nope.

This is why I am thinking about getting the Tesla 3 Performance as a daily driver instead. I do not make many kms in the car, maybe 20-50 km a day, I can charge it at home (preferably somewhere else with cheaper energy) and lease cost will be around 600 EUR per month, incl. VAT. I could get a fully loaded RS3 for the same money or even less but for my business, the Tesla is "better" (tax benefits are much much better for the Tesla).

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

hunterone:

it was our usual test drive with cars. Here ist the route in kurviger https://kurv.gr/5drpd

Our driving style is spirited to say at least ;) or full on someone would say and has nothing to do with real driving situations, but when we do our group drives we are not that far off so i expect to do arround 250km in the car (maybe less). Drove the route with may different cars. It has highway, small bends, uphill, downhill sections and is not very frequented so you get a good impression of the capabilities.

btw. when I do this driving style in a Tesla I am in 10-15 minutes in limp mode so....

 

Great write-up, thanks 

The range/autonomy was destroyed but you have to hand it to the Taycan, at least it didn't overhead like the Teslas, first EV that can handle this type of driving.

The range however is a consequence of the current state of EV tech that cannot yet offer adequate range for "spirited" driving, further compounded by the inability of EVs to re-fuel on the fly. Wonder how they are going to solve this for the future EV boxster...

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

the-missile:

Rossi:

I can only think of EVas an option for city cars.

That is primary goal. limit city centers to ''clean'' cars.

Yes, leave the dirt in the hinterlands:

1. toxic element mining
2. power production to produce electricity to charge
3. toxic battery production
4. toxic car to recycle in toxic dumps

The clean of EV is a lie.

watt:

Yes, leave the dirt in the hinterlands:

1. toxic element mining
2. power production to produce electricity to charge
3. toxic battery production
4. toxic car to recycle in toxic dumps

The clean of EV is a lie.

Exactly.  If it's not near me, I don't care.  Most people are that way.

I am the same.  I like electric cars because the dirt of the petrol station never intrudes on my style.  My garage is better looking and has better people than the petrol station.  And, I don't have to waste time traveling to and from.

Perfect!

Mike

918 Spyder + Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S P100D AP2 + Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T

watt:

the-missile:

Rossi:

I can only think of EVas an option for city cars.

That is primary goal. limit city centers to ''clean'' cars.

Yes, leave the dirt in the hinterlands:

1. toxic element mining
2. power production to produce electricity to charge
3. toxic battery production
4. toxic car to recycle in toxic dumps

The clean of EV is a lie.

Cobalt free batteries are around the corner and batteries can be used as power walls after useful life in cars is done. After that there are companies who specialize in recycling the batteries. Not as bad as you think. It also depends on the source of the power. 
HunterOne- is your Tesla a model S?  My model 3 has never gone into limp home mode. 

watt:

the-missile:

Rossi:

I can only think of EVas an option for city cars.

That is primary goal. limit city centers to ''clean'' cars.

Yes, leave the dirt in the hinterlands:

1. toxic element mining
2. power production to produce electricity to charge
3. toxic battery production
4. toxic car to recycle in toxic dumps

The clean of EV is a lie.

Let’s not forget that electricity to power them is made from dirty coal central and so on...Yes, Clean EV is a joke but as others said it will be far from city centers and from the eyes of the beholder 

GT Lover, Porsche fan

991.2 GT3 manual

Cayenne GTS 2014

the-missile:

watt:

the-missile:

Rossi:

I can only think of EVas an option for city cars.

That is primary goal. limit city centers to ''clean'' cars.

Yes, leave the dirt in the hinterlands:

1. toxic element mining
2. power production to produce electricity to charge
3. toxic battery production
4. toxic car to recycle in toxic dumps

The clean of EV is a lie.

Let’s not forget that electricity to power them is made from dirty coal central and so on...Yes, Clean EV is a joke but as others said it will be far from city centers and from the eyes of the beholder 

Depends on where one lives.

Here all electricity is 100% hydro generated, so can't get any cleaner than that.

The other parts of a EV however is another story. We keep hearing about used Tesla batteries can be turned into power wall batteries but Tesla have yet to make such an announcement nor have they started a program to buy back those.

EVs are still in their infancy, no one is truly recycling them yet, it's all empty talks and vapourwares about how they can be 'recycled'.  There are plenty of totalled Teslas, but the battery packs in those wrecks, if they aren't damaged, are being bought up by parts guys to be resold. So they are being 'recycled' in a different sense. Same thing with the motors. Body panels are regular metal so not that hard to recycle. But the interior is a different story. Normal cars have leather and those are organic so will easily decomposed naturally, not so with the artificial material inside Teslas. 

We just have to wait another 20-30 years to see the outcome, there are things that can't be rushed. 

You guys probably know by now that I am always looking for the truth, I hate misleading stuff or even fake news. 

The truth is: I don't have a clue which "side" is right. Environmentalists here in Germany mostly claim that EVs are clean. Some of them say, they aren't clean(er). Others say that they are clean but the materials used for building EV batteries are harmful and/or are manufactured using child labor and whatnot. Then, there is the other side which claims that EVs have no environmental advantage over modern petrol cars, on the contrary.

I've read so much about this stuff and I am still baffled: While I currently kind of think that all sides are right (sounds weird, right?), I try to make more sense into this.

So in the end, I think generalizations are dangerous and false, it really depends on the product, the battery type, the countries the materials come from, the manufacturer's recycling offers and efficiency, which kind of energy (coal, nuclear, wind, water, etc.) is used for charging the cars and so on. 

Meaning: Yes, Nick...you are right. The next 20 years will show which way is the "right" one and I still believe that once there is a battery tech or at least charging tech revolution (not evolution!), EVs are a thing of the future. Right now, they aren't really (yet) but I also do not believe that hydrogen cars will be the future, maybe some sort of addition for certain types of vehicles or transport tech.

Petrol operated cars? Not the future but I can imagine some very advanced hybrid stuff mixed with some petrol engine tech, making the most out of efficiency, range and charging time.

Interesting times ahead, like in the computer and telecommunications sector in the last century. 

Lots of money to be made here, with innovative and revolutionary products. 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

RC:

Petrol operated cars? Not the future but I can imagine some very advanced hybrid stuff mixed with some petrol engine tech, making the most out of efficiency, range and charging time.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

 

Is this what Porsche are working on now for the coming 992 hybrid models? ;)

boytronic:

RC:

Petrol operated cars? Not the future but I can imagine some very advanced hybrid stuff mixed with some petrol engine tech, making the most out of efficiency, range and charging time.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

 

Is this what Porsche are working on now for the coming 992 hybrid models? ;)

All I heard is that Porsche plans some sorts of performance(!) enhancing hybrid tech for the 992.2 Turbo S. Of course it would make sense to offer this tech for all 992 models but since it increases weight and cost, I actually think that the 992 Carrera models will rather get some sort of mild hybrid tech (48V) than what I heard is planned for the 992.2 Turbo S. This is all speculation of course... 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIuRF_wOzyo

Spoiler failure over 300 kmh....

1992 964 Carrera 2 - 2016 Macan S Diesel - 2018 Mini JCW

Mikla:

Spoiler failure over 300 kmh....

Speaking of failure: When I had my 996 Turbo RS Tuning (tuned to over 550 hp), I did a high speed run on the Autobahn with a 996 GT2 factory car for comparison. Shortly before that run, I checked oil and filled up a little bit. 

After the high speed run (speedo reading was 334 kph at max, we had no GPS then with us but real speed was, according to some stop watch measurements at slightly lower speeds we made before, around 320-323 kph), we stopped at a parking lot and I noticed that the rear lid (engine) was open!  

There was no warning sign in the display, the extendable rear wing had worked as well as intended but the lid was open. Quite shocking, especially since the car was tuned and aerodynamics certainly weren't adapted to that kind of speed.

Here are two photos from that day...

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

RC:

Quite shocking, especially since the car was tuned and aerodynamics certainly weren't adapted to that kind of speed

One of the guys at the vmax events I used to do did 229mph / 368kph GPS in his 996 turbo with full factory 996GT2 body without issues so think you were pretty safe :)

997 GT2 2014 3.9 Mezger, 800PS @ 1.2 bar

2018 McLaren 720S 

993 Turbo, 2006 built 3.8, 577PS/797NM, 1440kg DIN sold to a worthy enthusiast.

TB993tt:

RC:

Quite shocking, especially since the car was tuned and aerodynamics certainly weren't adapted to that kind of speed

One of the guys at the vmax events I used to do did 229mph / 368kph GPS in his 996 turbo with full factory 996GT2 body without issues so think you were pretty safe :)

Sorry, I slightly corrected my above text, I think I didn't express myself too well.

Aerodynamics may seem to work (Alois Ruf told me that he once did over real 350 kph on the Autobahn in a tuned 996 Turbo) but can be tricky when you hit a bump and/or when there is wind from a certain direction. Not really tested for those speeds I'm afraid, it is a higher risk than many imagine. Especially with an open lid. 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

Yeah know what you are saying but your GT2 had decent downforce (unlike the turbo) with air pushing down on your lid, so whilst definitely a bit disconcerting to discover it unlatched it wasn't going anywhere because of the 40+kg of downforce the wing will have provided although like you say maybe a crosswind could've done something nasty.

TBH the 996 onwards 911s are extremely stable at very high speeds compared with the previous aircooled models, first time I took my 993 to 200mph/322kph it wandered around frighteningly and a slight side wind pushed it meters off line, thankfully this was on a wide airfield. I remember I asked RS tuning about this instability and they just grinned and said you should have felt the 993 "Red Rocket" they built when it was at 350kph - cars are much more stable at high speed now days which is good in one way but dangerous in another as one sees many drivers doing 200mph now at vmax events and I think they get a false sense of security... on the Autobahn of course it is potentially a lot more dangerous. 

997 GT2 2014 3.9 Mezger, 800PS @ 1.2 bar

2018 McLaren 720S 

993 Turbo, 2006 built 3.8, 577PS/797NM, 1440kg DIN sold to a worthy enthusiast.

TB993tt:

Yeah know what you are saying but your GT2 had decent downforce (unlike the turbo) with air pushing down on your lid, so whilst definitely a bit disconcerting to discover it unlatched it wasn't going anywhere because of the 40+kg of downforce the wing will have provided although like you say maybe a crosswind could've done something nasty.

The GT2 in the picture is a factory test car, my car is behind it. 

TBH the 996 onwards 911s are extremely stable at very high speeds compared with the previous aircooled models, first time I took my 993 to 200mph/322kph it wandered around frighteningly and a slight side wind pushed it meters off line, thankfully this was on a wide airfield. I remember I asked RS tuning about this instability and they just grinned and said you should have felt the 993 "Red Rocket" they built when it was at 350kph - cars are much more stable at high speed now days which is good in one way but dangerous in another as one sees many drivers doing 200mph now at vmax events and I think they get a false sense of security... on the Autobahn of course it is potentially a lot more dangerous. 

The 996 Turbo was pretty stable at higher speeds (not even comparable to the 997 Turbo S I had though) indeed but since the lid was open and the speed was "too high" (tuned car) anyway... 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

Ah I see, yes I thought I didn't remember you saying you had a GT2, you like the 4WD 

997 GT2 2014 3.9 Mezger, 800PS @ 1.2 bar

2018 McLaren 720S 

993 Turbo, 2006 built 3.8, 577PS/797NM, 1440kg DIN sold to a worthy enthusiast.

TB993tt:

Ah I see, yes I thought I didn't remember you saying you had a GT2, you like the 4WD  

 Porsche was crazy enough at that time to provide us with a GT2 test-car.    

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

RC:

TB993tt:

Ah I see, yes I thought I didn't remember you saying you had a GT2, you like the 4WD  

 Porsche was crazy enough at that time to provide us with a GT2 test-car.    

Fantastic, the 996GT2 without any nannies was probably the last widow maker GT2 

997 GT2 2014 3.9 Mezger, 800PS @ 1.2 bar

2018 McLaren 720S 

993 Turbo, 2006 built 3.8, 577PS/797NM, 1440kg DIN sold to a worthy enthusiast.

TB993tt:

RC:

TB993tt:

Ah I see, yes I thought I didn't remember you saying you had a GT2, you like the 4WD  

 Porsche was crazy enough at that time to provide us with a GT2 test-car.    

Fantastic, the 996GT2 without any nannies was probably the last widow maker GT2 

It was...many 996 Turbo customers were angry at Porsche because they claimed the 996 Turbo chassis setup was too neutral (and it was but I loved it), so many sold the 996 Turbo and went for the 996 GT2 instead.

Well, you can imagine what happened next... 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

Fantastic, the 996GT2 without any nannies was probably the last widow maker GT2 

I can;t forget how the 996 gt2 tram lined and hunted at 160 mph, what a handful but so fun.

I quit doing the Silver State high speed events in Nevada, after almost getting blown off a 30' high raised section of 2 lane at 170.  No guard rails.... adios.

and rule number one:  don't lift

rule number two:  squeeze the power on and off

 

watt:

Fantastic, the 996GT2 without any nannies was probably the last widow maker GT2 

I can;t forget how the 996 gt2 tram lined and hunted at 160 mph, what a handful but so fun.

I quit doing the Silver State high speed events in Nevada, after almost getting blown off a 30' high raised section of 2 lane at 170.  No guard rails.... adios.

and rule number one:  don't lift

rule number two:  squeeze the power on and off

 

I drove that section of the course before, in my 918 

The Silver State was one crazy event.

Watt, didn't you try to get me to participate? I wasn't having any of it.

When you're going through hell.....keep going.

Hi,

are there any ideas how much horsepower the 992 Turbo (without S) will have?
 

conner:

Hi,

are there any ideas how much horsepower the 992 Turbo (without S) will have?
 

620hp

GT Lover, Porsche fan

991.2 GT3 manual

Cayenne GTS 2014