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screw the cops, let them try to verbalize you! 
Re: Can a Ferrari do this?
Quote:
andrea said:
beautiful pics RC. I'm sorry for your little daughter that couldn't have more joy from the 360* because of police.I'm surprised that 295/30 winter tires can have so much grip as you said.I'm also happy that the PCCB works well also in low temperatures.
Today when I brough my daughter to the Kindergarden, she asked me if we could drive to that parking lot... Well, the result: she started crying again because I didn't want trouble with the neighbors anymore.
Regarding the 295 winter tires: I'm surprised too, honestly. Maybe the limited slip differential plays it's role too. But the tires are really great: I somehow "overdid" a 100* turn at around 30 kph and the car started to slide on all four wheels, with a car coming on the other lane. I was sure I hit this car but the tires (no PSM action at all!!!) "stabilized" the car while I was turning the steering wheel very very smoothly. A more nervous steering wheel turning and braking foot and I would have hit this car for sure. Seems I have to get used to the idea of hidden ice below the snowy surface.
This is the start of the snow season here, I have to get used to it. 
But impressive winter tires, no doubt about it. Conti claims this is a new generation of winter tires with a mixed compound on the tire's contact surface. It works well indeed.
Here is the press information regarding this new generation of winter tires:
Following exhaustive testing of Continental`s new winter tire generation, sports car manufacturer Porsche has issued a release for the new ContiWinterContact TS 810 Sport. To guarantee that the `top performer` delivers excellent handling properties even during the colder months of the year, Continental has developed a novel production concept for working different rubber compounds into its winter tires. The inner side of the ContiWinterContact TS 810 Sport for Porsche has a soft winter tire compound for excellent grip on wintry roads, while the outer side of the tire is equipped with a handling-oriented, hard winter compound that supports sporty driving. Continental is the first winter tire manufacturer offering a combination of different tread compounds to specifically optimize the handling capability of winter sports tires.
A winter tire has to have a compound that remains flexible even at low temperatures if it is to adhere well to cold, wet roads. To achieve this, soft compounds have traditionally been preferred for winter tires. In the past this has had the effect of severely handicapped the winter driving handling of high-end sports car. With the new MCT process (MCT = Multi Component Tread), Continental`s tire developers have now resolved this problem. "The inner sides of the new ContiWinterContact TS 810 Sport for Porsche are given a soft compound for optimum adherence on ice and snow," explains Dr. Burkhard Wies, head of winter and summer tire development at Continental. "The tire's outer side, which transmits most of the forces occurring when cornering, is given a comparatively hard compound. This ensures sporty handling properties on a par with those offered by summer tires."
The tire tread pattern has a similarly intricate design: "With the new ContiWinterContact TS 810 Sport our range includes a high-tech winter tire whose extremely asymmetrical tread pattern can satisfy highest demands," reports Dr. Wies. "The outer side of the new ContiWinterContact TS 810 Sport is dominated by thin, curved CLS-Plus siping with top handling properties on dry roads. We have given the tire`s inner side thick sipes that ensure excellent grip on snow and ice."
The ContiWinterContact TS 810 Sport model for the Zuffenhausen sports car manufacturer bears the supplementary `N0` identification.
I usually don't trust press releases too much but the TS810 S really works well. Still have to evaluate it's capabilities on dry pavement though.
Dec 21, 2004 11:50:01 AM
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Ron (Houston)
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RC
Re: Can a Ferrari do this?
Quote:
RC said:
Guys, I'm not joking.
Well, did I tell you guys about the cop who followed me in a video surveillance car through half the city and charging me for driving 15 kph over the legal speed limit on a Autobahn-like inner city road? I'm not kidding. Seems that german cops have gone nuts too, up til now they really were a bit different. Bad economy = envy and bad mood everywhere. Sad.
You are right RC, Jealousy it is
. What a dumb cop.I hate it when they pull you over for crap like that
. I was pulled over few months ago for not having a front Lic. plate but the way the stupid looser cop was acting was as if he busted a drug dealer or something.
Dec 21, 2004 12:23:00 PM
- Flying_Dutchman
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- Loc: European Union BE BXL , Belgium
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Reply to:
Ron (Houston)
Re: Can a Ferrari do this?
RC,
I see you anticipate your daughter's proper drving education... At the age of 18 she'll know perfectly well how to take out Daddy's car to show off some boyfriends
!!
Other than that those are some great pictures of a super 997S. I doubt a Ferrari would be at ease in such conditions. The polyvalence of Porsche amazes me day after day (it's my daily driver).
Since November my 996 runs on Conti TS 790V 18" wintertires. Last year I drove on summertires during winter and wouldn't recommend this anymore. The difference IS remarkable, even in rain and during dry winterdays.
I see you anticipate your daughter's proper drving education... At the age of 18 she'll know perfectly well how to take out Daddy's car to show off some boyfriends
!!Other than that those are some great pictures of a super 997S
. I doubt a Ferrari would be at ease in such conditions. The polyvalence of Porsche amazes me day after day (it's my daily driver).Since November my 996 runs on Conti TS 790V 18" wintertires. Last year I drove on summertires during winter and wouldn't recommend this anymore. The difference IS remarkable, even in rain and during dry winterdays.
Dec 21, 2004 1:30:35 PM
- palenimbus
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- Loc: Baden-Württemberg, Germany
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Re: Can a Ferrari do this?
Quote:
pierre said:
Do you mean this?
http://www.sw2.ch/pics/snowdrive/123-2386_MVI.AVI
http://www.sw2.ch/pics/snowdrive/124-2401_MVI.AVI
http://www.sw2.ch/pics/snowdrive/124-2404_MVI.AVI
BTW, the parking lot seen in the first video was immaculate when I arrived. I thought the employees of the company owning it would be glad to have a clean space on the next day...
--Pierre
Pierre, your car sounds fantastic, do you have PSE?
Re: Can a Ferrari do this?
Quote:
RC said:
The WORST thing which could have happened is that I destroy my rims by hitting a bigger stone/etc. under the snow.
Try it for yourself. There was NO way the cops would have suspended my license. For what? Speeding? Putting a third party in danger? Destroying something? It is a "political correctness" thing over here in Germany, you're "not supposed to do such a thing". I would never take my 4-year old to the track with me (unless she wants to watch me from the distance) but what I did yesterday is as harmful as playing with Barbies and this is why I was so upset. I was too nice to the cops, it was too late when I realized that I've actually haven't done anything wrong. The 360* turns were pretty smoothly, nothing to put too much stress on my girl's neck/etc.
The kids are much more in danger when they use a slide to go down a hill in winter time. Ours always wear a helmet but this doesn't prevent broken bones as seen in other families.
I'm sorry to say that but it seems that nowadays, everything seems to be forbidden or not "political correct" if not all people do it. I'm a conservative type of guy, I'm no "rebel" but sometimes everybody should have some fun. And if this doesn't put anybody in danger, what is wrong with that?
The cops the world over, as well as the governments in general, are becoming oppressors instead of the public paid servants they are.
There was nothing dangerous about that activity other than perhaps to your driveline. Like some others said screw the stasi. I would be more concerned that you make clear to your daughter that the two of you were having fun safely and that the cops were out of line.
Tom
Dec 21, 2004 5:26:13 PM
- pierre
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- Loc: there , Switzerland
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Re: Can a Ferrari do this?
Quote:
Gregor said:
BTW, how was that Porsche Camp4 in Finland and when did you attend? [...] I am still considering attending maybe next year.
I was there in January '02. Perfect organization, perfect track, etc. Wow! The only thing is that I didn't get enough track-time for my taste: 2 people per car switching sides every 10 minutes, a bit too many breaks (pauses), etc.
But I've noticed that since '05, there's the option of booking sort of an 'Advanced Camp4' for people who want to drive more and more seriously. Would definitely consider that!
Greetings,
--Pierre
Re: Can a Ferrari do this?
Quote:
Boyko23 said:Quote:
ben, lj said:
well of course a ferrari can. what car CAN'T do donuts in the snow?
But the Ferrari first has to reach the parking lot and eventually go back
And what's the difficulty in that? I think what's more likely is the Fcar owner has plenty of other more appropriate cars to do donuts in the snow with 4 year old children. The CGT is a Porsche, right? Suppose you'll see a lot of them out doing donuts in the snow? Nah, it's probably something you'll see in a more mass produced consumable Pcar like a 997. IOW, it doesn't much look like a "Porsche vs. Ferrari" deal to me.
Re: Can a Ferrari do this?
ben, a Ferrari CAN'T do donuts in snow and I explain why:
1. first at all, you can't get the car out of the garage without winter tires
2. you have to DRIVE through snow to find an empty parking lot to be able to do "donuts" which involves the problem from point number 1.
3. it is easy to make fun of the "mass" produced 997 when you drive a CGT. The "secret" is to learn to drive a 997 at it's limit before you jump on a CGT. Every heard of the oranges-apples comparison? You compare a car for half a million with a car which costs four times less money? Interesting. 
4. whenever you're in Germany, send me a mail. I know that people tend to think they know it all when they drove different kind of sports cars, especially expensive ones but I bet I have one or two surprises for you...in a 997 Carrera S.
5. don't hang around with Nick too much, it might be contageous what he has. 
My point regarding this thread was actually to show how reliable and great Porsches are as a daily driver, even under extreme weather conditions (I bet Pierre can sing a song about it). And I can't hide the feeling that in one year from now, you're driving a F430 and no CGT anymore. Maybe we should start placing bets here on Rennteam.com. 
1. first at all, you can't get the car out of the garage without winter tires
2. you have to DRIVE through snow to find an empty parking lot to be able to do "donuts" which involves the problem from point number 1.
3. it is easy to make fun of the "mass" produced 997 when you drive a CGT. The "secret" is to learn to drive a 997 at it's limit before you jump on a CGT. Every heard of the oranges-apples comparison?
You compare a car for half a million with a car which costs four times less money? Interesting. 4. whenever you're in Germany, send me a mail. I know that people tend to think they know it all when they drove different kind of sports cars, especially expensive ones but I bet I have one or two surprises for you...in a 997 Carrera S.
5. don't hang around with Nick too much, it might be contageous what he has.
My point regarding this thread was actually to show how reliable and great Porsches are as a daily driver, even under extreme weather conditions (I bet Pierre can sing a song about it
). And I can't hide the feeling that in one year from now, you're driving a F430 and no CGT anymore. Maybe we should start placing bets here on Rennteam.com.
Re: Can a Ferrari do this?
Quote:
RC said:
ben, a Ferrari CAN'T do donuts in snow and I explain why:
1. first at all, you can't get the car out of the garage without winter tires
2. you have to DRIVE through snow to find an empty parking lot to be able to do "donuts" which involves the problem from point number 1.
3. it is easy to make fun of the "mass" produced 997 when you drive a CGT. The "secret" is to learn to drive a 997 at it's limit before you jump on a CGT. Every heard of the oranges-apples comparison?
4. whenever you're in Germany, send me a mail. I know that people tend to think they know it all when they drove different kind of sports cars, especially expensive ones but I bet I have one or two surprises for you...in a 997 Carrera S.
5. don't hang around with Nick too much, it might be contageous what he has.
My point regarding this thread was actually to show how reliable and great Porsches are as a daily driver, even under extreme weather conditions (I bet Pierre can sing a song about it
Well as usual, you proved nothing but comfortably stated everything as fact - it must be nice knowing it all. Just because you took a 911 out in the snow doesn't make your evidence absent statements about not being able to in a Ferrari valid. Neither car has jack schit for torque so I fail to see why either would be more difficult to drive in the snow than the other. Rather, it's just seems like more of the sophomoric "Ferrari is better than Porsche" or "Porsche is better than Ferrari" moronic game of closed minds. Hey whatever makes you feel good about what you purchase is fine by me. In the US, the closed minded rednecks have stickers showing Calvin pissing on whatever brandname the redneck isn't driving (ie: Chevy owner with sticker pissing on a Ford emblem and Ford owner with sticker pissing on a Chevy). Why don't you just get a redneck sticker pissing on Ferrari or is it more fun playing that game online?
FWIW, I'm very seriously considering selling the Stradale since it seems so very sluggish now that I'm used to the CGT speed. It still looks better, sounds better, feels better (braking, cabin, etc) and much smaller (despite it being the same width, and less than 6" shorter, but only 100 or so less lbs), but it's just too slow relative to the CGT. I have no idea what I'll be driving in a year. It could be the CGT, the F430, or something entirely different. My mind isn't so small that it has to be locked into one brand or another.
I'm sure I'd be very comfortable driving a 997 at the limit (about the only place it would get my blood flowing). However, donuts in the snow in a parking lot with my little girl isn't something I'd consider driving at the limit - or even intelligent.
"My point regarding this thread was actually to show how reliable and great Porsches are as a daily driver, even under extreme weather conditions"
I guess this is why you chose to call it "Can Ferrari do this?" because it was about Porsche reliability. You back this up with one of the few 997s that hasn't thus far been reported here and many other places to have bugs and troubles and can go out in the snow once and spin it's tires. Very impressive. If you think that's a good test of reliability, you ought to really love Subarus which are fantastic snow cars. Speaking of how reliable great Porsches are, isn't you Cayenne a Porsche? If so, some of your threads complaining about it's major shortcomings is interesting. Can a Ferrari do THAT?
Dec 23, 2004 7:10:03 AM
- Jeff (in SF)
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- Loc: SF, CA, USA , United States
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Re: Can a Ferrari do this? (semi long)
Quote:
ben, lj said:Quote:
RC said:
ben, a Ferrari CAN'T do donuts in snow and I explain why:
1. first at all, you can't get the car out of the garage without winter tires
2. you have to DRIVE through snow to find an empty parking lot to be able to do "donuts" which involves the problem from point number 1.
3. it is easy to make fun of the "mass" produced 997 when you drive a CGT. The "secret" is to learn to drive a 997 at it's limit before you jump on a CGT. Every heard of the oranges-apples comparison?
4. whenever you're in Germany, send me a mail. I know that people tend to think they know it all when they drove different kind of sports cars, especially expensive ones but I bet I have one or two surprises for you...in a 997 Carrera S.
5. don't hang around with Nick too much, it might be contageous what he has.
My point regarding this thread was actually to show how reliable and great Porsches are as a daily driver, even under extreme weather conditions (I bet Pierre can sing a song about it
Well as usual, you proved nothing but comfortably stated everything as fact - it must be nice knowing it all. Just because you took a 911 out in the snow doesn't make your evidence absent statements about not being able to in a Ferrari valid. Neither car has jack schit for torque so I fail to see why either would be more difficult to drive in the snow than the other. Rather, it's just seems like more of the sophomoric "Ferrari is better than Porsche" or "Porsche is better than Ferrari" moronic game of closed minds. Hey whatever makes you feel good about what you purchase is fine by me. In the US, the closed minded rednecks have stickers showing Calvin pissing on whatever brandname the redneck isn't driving (ie: Chevy owner with sticker pissing on a Ford emblem and Ford owner with sticker pissing on a Chevy). Why don't you just get a redneck sticker pissing on Ferrari or is it more fun playing that game online?
FWIW, I'm very seriously considering selling the Stradale since it seems so very sluggish now that I'm used to the CGT speed. It still looks better, sounds better, feels better (braking, cabin, etc) and much smaller (despite it being the same width, and less than 6" shorter, but only 100 or so less lbs), but it's just too slow relative to the CGT. I have no idea what I'll be driving in a year. It could be the CGT, the F430, or something entirely different. My mind isn't so small that it has to be locked into one brand or another.
I'm sure I'd be very comfortable driving a 997 at the limit (about the only place it would get my blood flowing). However, donuts in the snow in a parking lot with my little girl isn't something I'd consider driving at the limit - or even intelligent.
"My point regarding this thread was actually to show how reliable and great Porsches are as a daily driver, even under extreme weather conditions"
I guess this is why you chose to call it "Can Ferrari do this?" because it was about Porsche reliability. You back this up with one of the few 997s that hasn't thus far been reported here and many other places to have bugs and troubles and can go out in the snow once and spin it's tires. Very impressive. If you think that's a good test of reliability, you ought to really love Subarus which are fantastic snow cars. Speaking of how reliable great Porsches are, isn't you Cayenne a Porsche? If so, some of your threads complaining about it's major shortcomings is interesting. Can a Ferrari do THAT?
I started to follow you but then you lost me. Sorry.
It's interesting to me to read the internet bulletin boards. Invariably the longest and most read threads usually start out "M3 vs. 911" or "911 vs. Ferrari" or "Corvette vs. 911". I haven't seen any "M3 vs. Corvette vs. Ferrari" threads but they're probably out there somewhere. I hope this doesn't sound dogmatic but the facts seem to show that the 911 is the car most often compared to other sports/sporty cars and it both wins and loses those comparisons - usually depending on whether price is factored into the equation or not. Perhaps this has to do with the fact that it's been around almost the longest and is in the middle of the lower priced and higher priced sports cars so it gets included more than the other cars. And you can't argue that Porsche has built a fine car - the accolades of the 997 bear this out.
Ferrari has a policy of prohibiting car journalists from putting their cars into head-to-head comparisons because Ferrari isn't selling cars that are all about 0 to 60mph. Since Ferrari's PR department can't control how much emphasis the journalists put on intangibles (exclusivity, engine sound, sex appeal, blah blah) they aren't interested in catering to any articles that contribute to conversations that begin "Did you see the GM Rocketsled 1000 kicked the Ferrari's butt in the latest Road & Track comparison?". All of the F430 vs. Gallardo or Enzo vs. CGT vs. SLR comparisons you now see in print are courtesy of the journalists' relationships with anonymous Ferrari owners who are curious to see how their cars compare.
My humble opinion on all this is that the 911 is an icon and represents the hands down best car at its price class. Some would say that even at twice its price class, it's still the best car available. Car makers have generally avoided trying to create a car that competes directly with the 911. Aston Martin will be the first to compete relatively head-to-head with similar power, weight but at a slightly higher price point to justify its exclusivity. I'm anxious to see what they come up with and how it compares.
Ferrari too has produced an icon at its price level - the 360/430 (The 575 and 456 are much less successful). Likewise, this model series hasn't really had much competition until the Gallardo and Ferrari has had to rise to the occasion and up its horsepower 25% to stay competitive. Other competitors to Ferrari's bread & butter model are on the way from BMW and Mercedes. Again, I'm anxious to see what they bring to market and fear that Ferrari's dealer tactics will help this competition get a stronghold because BMW/Mercedes/Aston/Ford/etc. dealers are all too willing to cater to customers spending almost $200K on a car. Let's hope Ferrari's competitive instincts cause them to take a closer look at the reality their customers face in the showrooms and get more competitive with the best dealer practices out there.
Is Ferrari better than Porsche or vice versa? It's a pointless argument because they don't really compete directly with each other given the large price discrepancy. But I will remind us all of the "law of diminishing returns". Is a 911S $35K better than a Corvette? To many it is. Is a F430 $100K+ better than a 911S? To some it is (there are fewer F430's available so it has to be 'some' vs. 'many'). As long as an owner is getting the car that fits the bill for the most criteria that are important to the him/her, who are we to argue with their choice? It's kind of like saying silver/black/grey/etc. is the best color choice. For some it is, but not for me and you'll never convince me otherwise.
Happy holidays.
Dec 23, 2004 7:25:13 AM
- ADias
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Re: Can a Ferrari do this? (semi long)
Jeff: well stated.
Re. RC's topic starter "Can Ferrari do this" the subject title was not really the issue. The issue was that RC's 997S did it w/ applomb. Can F360/CS do that? most probably, although in practice most 360/CS owners would not ever do it - and that justifies RC's subject line.
Re: Can a Ferrari do this? (semi long)
Quote:
ADias said:
Jeff: well stated.
Re. RC's topic starter "Can Ferrari do this" the subject title was not really the issue. The issue was that RC's 997S did it w/ applomb. Can F360/CS do that? most probably, although in practice most 360/CS owners would not ever do it - and that justifies RC's subject line.
Right.
And I never said a Porsche is better than a Ferrari or vice versa. I love Ferrari too, honestly. They build fine sports cars and if somebody asks me, there are only three sports car manufacturers left in my opinion who build REAL and fascinating sports cars which are still in a somehow "payable" price range: Ferrari, Lamborghini and Porsche. I would surely have all three brands in my garage if I could afford it. That's not the point. I'm not like Nick who tries to bash Porsche with every occasion, I'm really very enthusiastic about the new F430 and I bet it is the hell of a sports car. But people never do in a Ferrari what they do in a Porsche and this is a fact. I passed through many winters over here in Bavaria and never saw a Ferrari driving around on winter tires. Now people would probably say "so what, Ferrari drivers have a SUV or other cars in their garage for winter time". And here's exactly my point: I have a SUV too (two of them actually) but I enjoy driving my 997 in winter too. Am I crazy? Nope. It is fun and when the streets are somehow dry, it can be almost as much fun as in summer time.
And a few last points which should give people some food for thought:
1. did Ferrari extensive winter testing with the F355/F360/F430? I only saw pictures from Italy and Mexico.
2. what about crash testing, how many cars did they crash to improve the safety?
3. what about prototype testing, how many prototypes did they test before they introduced their cars?
4. why doesn't Ferrari easily offer their cars for head to head comparison with other sports cars?
5. why wasn't SPORT AUTO able to get an Enzo for track testing? REAL track testing? The editor-in-chief is also a very respected driver in the Ferrari (racing) world over here in Germany, just in case if people don't know.
6. how much time did Ferrari invest in tire development and have their tires been developped SPECIFICALLY for their cars?
I would have even more questions.
Again: Ferrari builds fascinating sports cars and I might get one myself sooner or later...if I win the lottery. But there are many questions I would like to be answered and I'm not sure Ferrari even likes me to ask these questions.A good friend gets a F430 Spider and owns a Porsche too.
Why a Spider? Well, the Porsche is for the hard part of having fun.
I think a Ferrari is like a precious jewel, you can wear it but most of the time, it is in a safety vault.
Re: Can a Ferrari do this? (semi long)
Quote:
WCH said:
"A good friend gets a F430 Spider and owns a Porsche too."
He's got that reversed! I have a Stradale and a C2 cab.
Love the snow photos, RC your car is beautiful.
His Porsche has "true" 600 HP and there is almost no car on earth which can outrun him.
The Challenge Stradale would have been the ONLY F360 model I would have bought, great choice.
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