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Dec 17, 2004 12:08:47 AM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: Interesting fact regarding Ferrari sales. Its second lar
hmmm... maybe its just that everybody else is even more phobic of Ferrari cars than the germans? 
just j/k 
Seriously, doesn't surprise me since Germany combines a good economy with relatively high income per capita, high population (for an european country at least), a tradictional passion for motorsport and sportcars, and autobahn, and great car prices compared to equivalent economy countries. That constallation probably makes it the second largest market for any sportcar manufactures (except brittish cars maybe).
just j/k
Seriously, doesn't surprise me since Germany combines a good economy with relatively high income per capita, high population (for an european country at least), a tradictional passion for motorsport and sportcars, and autobahn, and great car prices compared to equivalent economy countries. That constallation probably makes it the second largest market for any sportcar manufactures (except brittish cars maybe).
Re: Interesting fact regarding Ferrari sales. Its second largest
Quote:
nberry said:
important market is GERMANY according to M Parlato CEO of FNA. I find this fascinating because I have been lead to believe that Germans were very phobic about Ferrari cars.
Perhaps a lot of German buyers quietly garage their F's at country houses in parts of Italy/France where conspicuous consumption is more acceptable?....sort of like how many NYC buyers' F's spend the summer at Hamptons houses and winter at Palm Beach houses....
Re: Interesting fact regarding Ferrari sales. Its second largest
Quote:
VKSF said:
Any sense from FNA re: how many F's US buys vs Germany and what percentage of global F mkt is US?
They expect to sell a total of 1400 cars for all of North America in 2004. Ferrari yearly production is 4000 cars.
Carlos, I strongly suspect many of our German posters would be driving a Ferrari but for the image issue. They certainly appreciate a unique stimulating sport car.
Re: Interesting fact regarding Ferrari sales. Its second largest
Quote:
nberry said:
important market is GERMANY according to M Parlato CEO of FNA. I find this fascinating because I have been lead to believe that Germans were very phobic about Ferrari cars.
Why are you surprised?
The problem with Ferrari in Germany is image.
It has improved a lot but unfortunately the economy in Germany is running pretty bad with lots of unemployed people. And driving a Ferrari here now is like showing a red flag to a bull.
A lot of Ferrari owners in Germany also own a Porsche.In my opinion, Ferrari has three major problems on the german market:
1. image (or envy of people)
2. no sufficient and good repair shops
3. Porsche
With increasing production numbers and the work of Michael Schumacher, Ferrari might gain a lot of sympathy and image.
I only hope that they start to offer more repair shops over here because it is one thing to drive a F430 but another one to have it repaired or just maintained by an individual who might be a Ferrari expert but doesn't have much clue about the new technology or who is lacking the necessary tools to do a proper diagnosis on such a car.
Friends who own a Ferrari also complaint about the service quality of official Ferrari dealers over here, including the quality AND prices of official Ferrari dealers.
Re: Interesting fact regarding Ferrari sales. Its second largest
Quote:
RC said:Quote:
nberry said:
important market is GERMANY according to M Parlato CEO of FNA. I find this fascinating because I have been lead to believe that Germans were very phobic about Ferrari cars.
Why are you surprised?
The problem with Ferrari in Germany is image.
It has improved a lot but unfortunately the economy in Germany is running pretty bad with lots of unemployed people. And driving a Ferrari here now is like showing a red flag to a bull.
In my opinion, Ferrari has three major problems on the german market:
1. image (or envy of people)
2. no sufficient and good repair shops
3. Porsche
With increasing production numbers and the work of Michael Schumacher, Ferrari might gain a lot of sympathy and image.
I only hope that they start to offer more repair shops over here because it is one thing to drive a F430 but another one to have it repaired or just maintained by an individual who might be a Ferrari expert but doesn't have much clue about the new technology or who is lacking the necessary tools to do a proper diagnosis on such a car.
Friends who own a Ferrari also complaint about the service quality of official Ferrari dealers over here, including the quality AND prices of official Ferrari dealers.
RC assuming you are correct regarding the canard that Ferrari's require a lot of maintenance, I cannot believe Ferrari dealerships in Germany lack the proper training and tools to maintain them. The issue regarding image is also puzzling. Is not a Porsche considered a high end sport car? Or is it considered a VW ( I do not mean this to be a knock against Porsche) and thus acceptable?
Re: Interesting fact regarding Ferrari sales. Its second largest
Quote:
nberry said:Quote:
RC said:Quote:
nberry said:
important market is GERMANY according to M Parlato CEO of FNA. I find this fascinating because I have been lead to believe that Germans were very phobic about Ferrari cars.
Why are you surprised?
The problem with Ferrari in Germany is image.
It has improved a lot but unfortunately the economy in Germany is running pretty bad with lots of unemployed people. And driving a Ferrari here now is like showing a red flag to a bull.
In my opinion, Ferrari has three major problems on the german market:
1. image (or envy of people)
2. no sufficient and good repair shops
3. Porsche
With increasing production numbers and the work of Michael Schumacher, Ferrari might gain a lot of sympathy and image.
I only hope that they start to offer more repair shops over here because it is one thing to drive a F430 but another one to have it repaired or just maintained by an individual who might be a Ferrari expert but doesn't have much clue about the new technology or who is lacking the necessary tools to do a proper diagnosis on such a car.
Friends who own a Ferrari also complaint about the service quality of official Ferrari dealers over here, including the quality AND prices of official Ferrari dealers.
RC assuming you are correct regarding the canard that Ferrari's require a lot of maintenance, I cannot believe Ferrari dealerships in Germany lack the proper training and tools to maintain them. The issue regarding image is also puzzling. Is not a Porsche considered a high end sport car? Or is it considered a VW ( I do not mean this to be a knock against Porsche) and thus acceptable?
F has come a long way in terms of dealer network (and reliability of cars) in past 5 yrs in US. But, if I recall correctly, SD lacked a F dealer until a couple yrs ago; many SD guys would source their cars through a broker (some still do) and flatbed them to LA for svc/warranty issues...a major hassle, making car a nuisance for daily use. Even today, SF, which buys/sources roughly 25% of F's US cars, has only 1 dealer...an excellent dealer, but located about 50 miles from Atherton/Woodside, where a disproportionate fraction of SF F buyers live. Given how primitive F's dealer network still is in CA, I'm not surprised to hear that Germany's network is also problematic.
Just as F's may be viewed as crass in Germany, I would argue that vast majority of guys in the more overtly materialistic US would face societal envy issues w/F-car commuting. Even in jaded places like NYC/SF, a lot of guys in finance/tech who own F's choose to commute via 55/65/996TTS, a more low-profile, more societally acceptable choice. In contrast, guys who retire to places like Malibu/Las Vegas/LaJolla/Palm Beach/Monte Carlo are almost expected to drive/be driven in a piece of automotive jewelry....but my sense is most guys still active in competitive businesses in major business centers don't want to waste their time explaining away an excessively flashy car to clients/employees, etc....who often associate (sometimes incorrectly) certain brands and consumption patterns w/ill-gotten gains....
Re: Interesting fact regarding Ferrari sales. Its second largest
Quote:
RC said:
With increasing production numbers and the work of Michael Schumacher, Ferrari might gain a lot of sympathy and image.
Having heard some words from Jean Todt a few weeks ago in Geneva, it is unlikely to see production figures increase in a near future.
Maybe the fact that Ferrari is loosing money over the past 9 months will change this strategy, but I would doubt it.
Re. the image, what RC said about Germany is about the same here. People is usually very discrete and one does not like to show off with wealth signs. A Ferrari is clearly considered here as a more visible sign of fortune than a Porsche.
BTW, Switzerland is the largest market for Ferrari in terms of cars sold per inhabitant
Re: Interesting fact regarding Ferrari sales. Its second largest
It's been like that for a while. USA then Germany, then UK, Japan, and then I think it's a close tie between France and Italy and Spain.
Ferrari has not made a lot of money recently, mostly due to Maserati, my Ferrari contact told they sold 4 Maaserati Spider in France in 2004
and 13 in the UK Gransport production is sold until May which is good but not great.
Maserati is still in the red and therefore creates lots of problems for Ferrari.
Even so, Ferrari makes most of their profit with F1.
Ferrari has not made a lot of money recently, mostly due to Maserati, my Ferrari contact told they sold 4 Maaserati Spider in France in 2004
and 13 in the UK Gransport production is sold until May which is good but not great. Maserati is still in the red and therefore creates lots of problems for Ferrari.
Even so, Ferrari makes most of their profit with F1.
Re: Interesting fact regarding Ferrari sales. Its second largest
Quote:
VKSF said:
Even today, SF, which buys/sources roughly 25% of F's US cars, has only 1 dealer...an excellent dealer, but located about 50 miles from Atherton/Woodside, where a disproportionate fraction of SF F buyers live.
New Ferrari dealership scheduled to open in spring in Redwood City. That said, I live in Los Altos Hills (near Woodside and Atherton) and will continue to do business with FoSF, they are that good.
Gary
Dec 17, 2004 6:18:21 PM
- Jeff (in SF)
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Reply to:
Futch
Re: Interesting fact regarding Ferrari sales. Its second largest
Quote:
Even so, Ferrari makes most of their profit with F1.
I don't think so. Ferrari's current Formula 1 effort is estimated to cost $450 million/year which works out to $112,000 for each car they sell. I don't know how much their sponsorships contribute but it would have to be significant to completely offset the expenses associated with F1 and then contribute a profit too. Obviously Fiat is the parent with the big pockets to invest & absorb the losses.
Dec 17, 2004 6:19:54 PM
- ben, lj
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Re: Interesting fact regarding Ferrari sales. Its second largest
Quote:
Jeff (in SF) said:Quote:
Even so, Ferrari makes most of their profit with F1.
I don't think so. Ferrari's current Formula 1 effort is estimated to cost $450 million/year which works out to $112,000 for each car they sell. I don't know how much their sponsorships contribute but it would have to be significant to completely offset the expenses associated with F1 and then contribute a profit too. Obviously Fiat is the parent with the big pockets to invest & absorb the losses.
Well that and the fact I seriously doubt Ferrari's "we make only 4k cars/year" line. They made 1500 Stradales ALONE in 04!
Dec 17, 2004 7:08:43 PM
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Futch
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Dec 17, 2004 10:10:53 PM
- Jeff (in SF)
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Futch
Re: Interesting fact regarding Ferrari sales. Its second largest
Quote:
Fanch said:
Quote:
I don't think so
Trust me Jeff, I know so!
And no, Fiat does not make any money.
Wow - said with such authority!! With evidence like that I should just roll over and believe you. What was I thinking?
Dec 17, 2004 10:32:14 PM
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Futch
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Re: Interesting fact regarding Ferrari sales. Its second largest
Sorry mate,
Didn't mean to sounds like an arrogant twat, but honestly, I know that from inside source, if you want, I can find out the exact data.
Spending new year eve with the guy so will definitely bring up the subject.
As for Fiat, it's all over the news here in Europe, the company is going down the drain!
Didn't mean to sounds like an arrogant twat, but honestly, I know that from inside source, if you want, I can find out the exact data.
Spending new year eve with the guy so will definitely bring up the subject.
As for Fiat, it's all over the news here in Europe, the company is going down the drain!
Re: Interesting fact regarding Ferrari sales. Its second largest
Quote:
Fanch said:
Trust me Jeff, I know so!
Mmm... Jean Todt himself explained two weeks ago that Ferrari's negative financial results over the last 9 months were a direct consequence of the extremely high costs of the F1 program this year
Dec 18, 2004 12:15:18 AM
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nberry
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Re: Interesting fact regarding Ferrari sales. Its second largest
Quote:
Jeff (in SF) said:Quote:
Even so, Ferrari makes most of their profit with F1.
I don't think so. Ferrari's current Formula 1 effort is estimated to cost $450 million/year which works out to $112,000 for each car they sell. I don't know how much their sponsorships contribute but it would have to be significant to completely offset the expenses associated with F1 and then contribute a profit too. Obviously Fiat is the parent with the big pockets to invest & absorb the losses.
Jeff you need to understand the financing of a F1 program. It certainly is expensive but with the various sponsorships it is a money maker for Ferrari. That fact is not in dispute.
Dec 20, 2004 6:27:09 PM
- Jeff (in SF)
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Re: Interesting fact regarding Ferrari sales. Its second largest
Quote:
nberry said:Quote:
Jeff (in SF) said:Quote:
Even so, Ferrari makes most of their profit with F1.
I don't think so. Ferrari's current Formula 1 effort is estimated to cost $450 million/year which works out to $112,000 for each car they sell. I don't know how much their sponsorships contribute but it would have to be significant to completely offset the expenses associated with F1 and then contribute a profit too. Obviously Fiat is the parent with the big pockets to invest & absorb the losses.
Jeff you need to understand the financing of a F1 program. It certainly is expensive but with the various sponsorships it is a money maker for Ferrari. That fact is not in dispute.
Why don't you break it down for me. You sound like you have a solid grasp on all the dollars and cents of the costs and sponsorships associated. In anticipation that you can't, my point still stands. For F1 to be a 'huge money maker' for Ferrari given that they're SPENDING $450 million or so, that means they'd need to be getting at least $500 to $600 million in sponsorship monies. Have you seen how many logos are on their car? It's doubtful that Shell & Bridgestone are giving them $500 million per year in sponsorships.
Dec 20, 2004 6:51:09 PM
- Patriek
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Re: Interesting fact regarding Ferrari sales. Its second largest
Quote:
Jeff (in SF) said:Quote:
nberry said:Quote:
Jeff (in SF) said:Quote:
Even so, Ferrari makes most of their profit with F1.
I don't think so. Ferrari's current Formula 1 effort is estimated to cost $450 million/year which works out to $112,000 for each car they sell. I don't know how much their sponsorships contribute but it would have to be significant to completely offset the expenses associated with F1 and then contribute a profit too. Obviously Fiat is the parent with the big pockets to invest & absorb the losses.
Jeff you need to understand the financing of a F1 program. It certainly is expensive but with the various sponsorships it is a money maker for Ferrari. That fact is not in dispute.
Why don't you break it down for me. You sound like you have a solid grasp on all the dollars and cents of the costs and sponsorships associated. In anticipation that you can't, my point still stands. For F1 to be a 'huge money maker' for Ferrari given that they're SPENDING $450 million or so, that means they'd need to be getting at least $500 to $600 million in sponsorship monies. Have you seen how many logos are on their car? It's doubtful that Shell & Bridgestone are giving them $500 million per year in sponsorships.
Jeff, nberry has it all RIGHT !! Ferrari is making money with their F1 program, alot of money !!
Dec 20, 2004 7:25:33 PM
- iia
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Re: Interesting fact regarding Ferrari sales. Its second largest
Quote:
Jeff (in SF) said:Quote:
nberry said:Quote:
Jeff (in SF) said:Quote:
Even so, Ferrari makes most of their profit with F1.
I don't think so. Ferrari's current Formula 1 effort is estimated to cost $450 million/year which works out to $112,000 for each car they sell. I don't know how much their sponsorships contribute but it would have to be significant to completely offset the expenses associated with F1 and then contribute a profit too. Obviously Fiat is the parent with the big pockets to invest & absorb the losses.
Jeff you need to understand the financing of a F1 program. It certainly is expensive but with the various sponsorships it is a money maker for Ferrari. That fact is not in dispute.
Why don't you break it down for me. You sound like you have a solid grasp on all the dollars and cents of the costs and sponsorships associated. In anticipation that you can't, my point still stands. For F1 to be a 'huge money maker' for Ferrari given that they're SPENDING $450 million or so, that means they'd need to be getting at least $500 to $600 million in sponsorship monies. Have you seen how many logos are on their car? It's doubtful that Shell & Bridgestone are giving them $500 million per year in sponsorships.
Although I don't know if Ferrari make $ from F1, each F1 team also gets $ from the pool of tickets/boardcast based on how many points they got besides the direct sponsorships.
Re: Interesting fact regarding Ferrari sales. Its second largest
Quote:
jennyz said:
Jeff, nberry has it all RIGHT !! Ferrari is making money with their F1 program, alot of money !!
Apparently not as much as one could think if we look at the Ferrari-Maserati group financial results this year (operating result in millions Euro):
Q1 2004 -> -47
Q2 2004 -> -12
Q3 2004 -> +2
ie. consolidated 2004 -> -57
Jean Todt confirmed in an interview given in the french economic newspaper La Tribune (2004/12/13) that these losses were due to the very high costs of Ferrari F1 program. He added that at the moment, only 75% of the investments in F1 are covered by Ferrari's revenues.
Dec 20, 2004 9:44:32 PM
- Jeff (in SF)
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Re: Interesting fact regarding Ferrari sales. Its second largest
Quote:
Nico997 said:Quote:
jennyz said:
Jeff, nberry has it all RIGHT !! Ferrari is making money with their F1 program, alot of money !!
Apparently not as much as one could think if we look at the Ferrari-Maserati group financial results this year (operating result in millions Euro):
Q1 2004 -> -47
Q2 2004 -> -12
Q3 2004 -> +2
ie. consolidated 2004 -> -57
Jean Todt confirmed in an interview given in the french economic newspaper La Tribune (2004/12/13) that these losses were due to the very high costs of Ferrari F1 program. He added that at the moment, only 75% of the investments in F1 are covered by Ferrari's revenues.
Well Jean Todt must not know what he's talking about. Afterall, Nick has already said that they make significant money in their F1 program so it must be true.
Dec 21, 2004 8:02:23 AM
- Gregor
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Re: Interesting fact regarding Ferrari sales. Its second largest
Should Ferrari really be loosing money with their F1 program (which I can absolutely not believe) then I would be even more surprised about them opposing practically any reasonable effort to cost reduction in F1. The remaining 9 teams do agree on significant cuts in development cost, particularly a reduced number of testing days per year. 
Only Ferrari is opposing this! 
BTW, I am a big fan of the Ferrari F1 team, but their stand on this issue makes them look VERY selfish and destructive of the entire F1 Circus.
Just my 2Cts.
Gregor
Only Ferrari is opposing this! BTW, I am a big fan of the Ferrari F1 team, but their stand on this issue makes them look VERY selfish and destructive of the entire F1 Circus.
Just my 2Cts.
Gregor
Dec 21, 2004 5:20:04 PM
- Jeff (in SF)
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Re: Interesting fact regarding Ferrari sales. Its second largest
Quote:
Gregor said:
Should Ferrari really be loosing money with their F1 program (which I can absolutely not believe) then I would be even more surprised about them opposing practically any reasonable effort to cost reduction in F1. The remaining 9 teams do agree on significant cuts in development cost, particularly a reduced number of testing days per year.
BTW, I am a big fan of the Ferrari F1 team, but their stand on this issue makes them look VERY selfish and destructive of the entire F1 Circus.
Just my 2Cts.
Gregor
Good point but consider that F1 for Ferrari is a marketing exercise. They do no advertising of their own in the classic TV commercial, print advertising, etc. as other car makers do. Advertising & promotion (rebates, etc.) are often big expenses for car makers. Ferrari chose a long time ago not to spend that way but to focus on F1 racing instead. One can debate the virtues of this decision but it offers an explanation of why Fiat would be willing to absorb losses. Marketing is never a profit center for a company.
Re: Ferrari of SF (in Mill Valley)
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Is owned by the factory!
If they cant fix your Ferrari or Maserati right nobody can.
If Porsche quality keeps nose diving as it is, we will see the odd paradigm shift of Ferraris being more reliable than
Porsches.
Should be interesting to see what happens to F svc quality in SF region after F of SilicVy opens. A rate-limiting issue is how to train competent new F mechanics fast enough to manage the increasing SF F volume. Perhaps the better P mechanics in SF region will be migrating over to either of the F stores? FNA is probably grappling w/fact that FoSF sells perhaps 15-20% of FNA sales, but SF region buys another 5-10% of FNA volume via other dealers/brokers. SF region is only 6MM people, whereas NYC/LA are each roughly 18MM; but NYC and LA each have 3-4 F dealers managing roughly same sales/svc volume that FoSF currently manages solo....
Re: Ferrari of SF (in Mill Valley)
I dont think that SF Ferrari mechanics will want to jump to
a Redwood city location. Redwood city is a obnoxious place to commute to, live and work in. The "silicon valley clientele" are notorious for being whiners, poseurs and overly demanding little turds. Nothing lamer than hearing a software engineer applying a development management mind set to Italian mechanical issues. They usually buy for image,icon ownership, but not for love!
As for the staff In Mill Valley, most of them live in Marin or Petaluma. The Mill Valley location is very nice, gets the latest of everything straight from the factory and the clientele is more laid back and also very knowledgable.
Besides,between rush hour times they have near instant access to the freeway for quick "italian " tune ups. Try doing that in Redwood city or on the forever jammed highway 101 on the penninsula.
a Redwood city location. Redwood city is a obnoxious place to commute to, live and work in. The "silicon valley clientele" are notorious for being whiners, poseurs and overly demanding little turds. Nothing lamer than hearing a software engineer applying a development management mind set to Italian mechanical issues. They usually buy for image,icon ownership, but not for love!
As for the staff In Mill Valley, most of them live in Marin or Petaluma. The Mill Valley location is very nice, gets the latest of everything straight from the factory and the clientele is more laid back and also very knowledgable.
Besides,between rush hour times they have near instant access to the freeway for quick "italian " tune ups. Try doing that in Redwood city or on the forever jammed highway 101 on the penninsula.
Re: Ferrari of SF (in Mill Valley)
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
I dont think that SF Ferrari mechanics will want to jump to
a Redwood city location. Redwood city is a obnoxious place to commute to, live and work in. The "silicon valley clientele" are notorious for being whiners, poseurs and overly demanding little turds. Nothing lamer than hearing a software engineer applying a development management mind set to Italian mechanical issues. They usually buy for image,icon ownership, but not for love!
As for the staff In Mill Valley, most of them live in Marin or Petaluma. The Mill Valley location is very nice, gets the latest of everything straight from the factory and the clientele is more laid back and also very knowledgable.
Besides,between rush hour times they have near instant access to the freeway for quick "italian " tune ups. Try doing that in Redwood city or on the forever jammed highway 101 on the penninsula.
Wow, talk about generalizations and pigeon-holing! Your post is a masterpiece of mud slinging without any factual basis. Maybe the silliest thing I've ever seen posted here.
Gary
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