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Nov 11, 2004 8:03:29 AM
- palenimbus
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- Loc: Baden-Württemberg, Germany
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- Reply to: Yargk
Nov 11, 2004 11:42:10 PM
- Yargk
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- Loc: SF Bay Area, CA, USA
- Posts: 486, Gallery
- Registered on: May 18, 2003
- Reply to: palenimbus
Re: Ahem!
Interesting question. Chevy worked to make the C5 Z06 lighter than the regular model so even though the C6 Z06 will probably have a larger engine, bigger wheels, brakes etc, I doubt it will weigh more than 3400 which is comparable to the 996 turbo weight. 500 hp is the C6 Z06 rumor which means the 997 turbo will have its work cut out for it in terms of straight line speed. It's anyone's guess how potent the next z06 really will be. The same goes for the 997 TT.
Re: Ahem!
I saw an hour long show about the new vette developement on cable about a month ago. It showed the car on the autobahn cruising at very high speed. Yes GM has really improved what the car can achieve and it is a great value BUT.
It still looks like a wedge of cheese and everything about it from image to exhaust sound says friday night drags. It lacks sophistication in its presentation. It is aimed at different customers. Period.
Tom
It still looks like a wedge of cheese and everything about it from image to exhaust sound says friday night drags. It lacks sophistication in its presentation. It is aimed at different customers. Period.
Tom
Re: Ahem!
Quote:
racerx said:
It still looks like a wedge of cheese and everything about it from image to exhaust sound says friday night drags. It lacks sophistication in its presentation. It is aimed at different customers. Period.
Tom
The problem is they have to make it look like a Corvette year after year so they add new design elements to it (oval triangles) and the marketing guys say it has to retain the Corvette identity and they keep that strong center line and pointy bumper. The thing is so much a mish-mash, retaining so many design elements from past iterations, while "updated" with the latest trendy stylistic elements that it looks like a mess now.
Base vs Base
Edit: meant to post this to another thread, but it's applicable here too:
The C6 Z51 package is a big package, which includes new springs, dampers, stabilizer bars, tires, uprated brake rotors, unique transmission, and heavy duty steering and transmission coolers. A C6 with Z51 is almost as fast as the C5 Z06 around a track.
If C&D wanted to be fair, they could have compared a non-Z51 with a base 997, a Z51 C6 with a 997 + sport suspension (or 997S), and the C6 Z06 with the 997TT next year or so. But, I guess their whole point and conclusion was preordained: the C6 is more performance per dollar.
I think this is yet another reason why Porsche should never have bothered selling a new 911 with less performance than the 997S.
The C6 Z51 package is a big package, which includes new springs, dampers, stabilizer bars, tires, uprated brake rotors, unique transmission, and heavy duty steering and transmission coolers. A C6 with Z51 is almost as fast as the C5 Z06 around a track.
If C&D wanted to be fair, they could have compared a non-Z51 with a base 997, a Z51 C6 with a 997 + sport suspension (or 997S), and the C6 Z06 with the 997TT next year or so. But, I guess their whole point and conclusion was preordained: the C6 is more performance per dollar.
I think this is yet another reason why Porsche should never have bothered selling a new 911 with less performance than the 997S.
Re: Ahem!
Quote:
Yargk said:
Interesting question. Chevy worked to make the C5 Z06 lighter than the regular model so even though the C6 Z06 will probably have a larger engine, bigger wheels, brakes etc, I doubt it will weigh more than 3400 which is comparable to the 996 turbo weight. 500 hp is the C6 Z06 rumor which means the 997 turbo will have its work cut out for it in terms of straight line speed. It's anyone's guess how potent the next z06 really will be. The same goes for the 997 TT.
Latest rumors on the C6 Z06 is that is will be Aluminum Hydroformed frame and the weight will be right below 3000 lbs. CF body, 512 bhp, redline @ 7000rpm, 427 c.i. (Titanuim Connecting Rods), CR of 11:1, dry sump, rear wheels of 345x20, and price of around 69k-72k. Ouch!
Nov 15, 2004 3:37:26 PM
- MaxErnst
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- Reply to: palenimbus
aluminum: $ and safety?
Quote:
danny828 said:
Any reason for why Porsche doesn't use Aluminum for the 911's body?
Just a guess on my part: expensive material, very expensive to re-tool for welding, fabrication, paint finishing, re-engineering of the monocoque (stress points, crumple zones).
Maybe a few body panels (hoods, doors) could be interchanged, but still too expensive I bet.
For that matter they should just make some body panels out of fiberglass, but I bet they'd encounter safety/engineering problems there too. E,g. a fiberglass door wouldn;t hold the side impact boron steel bar to the frame without some serious reengineering of the attachment points ($$$).
Anybody know for sure?
Re: aluminum: $ and safety?
Apparently,
The Z06 motor is a stroked version of the CTSV Race Car Cadillac runs at LeMans.
It will be a 7.0L.
Funny how both Audi and Cadillac (both previously non rac car companies) are using racing, specifically endurance races to "develop" road cars and build a name for themselves....mmm sounds like a company I used to know.
I hate the Corvette, but I don't think anyone could argue with me that Porsche is losing their edge, if not completely lost their edge.
As long as their competitors continue to "race prove" vehicles at the competitive level - while Porsche DOES NOT they will eventually come out on top.
If this continues it is only a matter of time before Porsche is completely disassociated with race proven technical advancements and completely lost when it comes to cutting edge vehicles.
Just exactly where is Porsche getting their inspirations for new models since they are no longer racing?
The Z06 motor is a stroked version of the CTSV Race Car Cadillac runs at LeMans.
It will be a 7.0L.
Funny how both Audi and Cadillac (both previously non rac car companies) are using racing, specifically endurance races to "develop" road cars and build a name for themselves....mmm sounds like a company I used to know.
I hate the Corvette, but I don't think anyone could argue with me that Porsche is losing their edge, if not completely lost their edge.
As long as their competitors continue to "race prove" vehicles at the competitive level - while Porsche DOES NOT they will eventually come out on top.
If this continues it is only a matter of time before Porsche is completely disassociated with race proven technical advancements and completely lost when it comes to cutting edge vehicles.
Just exactly where is Porsche getting their inspirations for new models since they are no longer racing?
Re: aluminum: $ and safety?
Quote:
RR4 said:
Funny how both Audi and Cadillac (both previously non rac car companies) are using racing, specifically endurance races to "develop" road cars and build a name for themselves....mmm sounds like a company I used to know.
Did you ever hear of a company named Auto Union?
Quote:
RR4 said:
As long as their competitors continue to "race prove" vehicles at the competitive level - while Porsche DOES NOT they will eventually come out on top.
When you say "competitors" are you thinking of anyone specific?
Nov 16, 2004 3:36:29 PM
- ben, lj
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Re: 911 vs. Vette posted on caranddriver.com
Quote:
porsche997 said:
Hey guys,
Of course the vette won it was going against the basic 911. I bet the 911S would have smoked the vette, car and driver knew that when they tested the 911S last month. They figured run the basic 911 against the vette so the vette would win. They clocked the 911 0-60 time at 4.3, and they got a 1/4 mile at 12.8, i must say nobody seems to pull car and driver numbers. By the way the 911 lost by 1 point so imagine what the 911S would have scored, it would have just embarassed the vette.
Ciao
As will the new Z06 smoke the 997S (as the OLD model Z06 already does!). The Z06 will cost 1/2 the 997S like the regular C6 costs 1/2 the 997 non S. Face it, Chevy embarasses Porsche.
Re: 911 vs. Vette posted on caranddriver.com
Some how I get the feeling the new C6 ZO6 will not be that cheap. Chevy embarrass Porsche what balone. Any tard who compares a 500+HP car to a 355HP doesn't have a clue. You are using the bang for the buck argument like the US rags. The ZO6 will be a high model range monster. It should be compaired to the HIGH range 911, the 997TT and 997GT2 if made. Chevy will NEVER have the built quality of Porsche or fit and finish, not to mention driver feed back. Some would consider THAT an embarrasment. LOL In typical muscle fashion the Vette must use a ton of HP to compete with Porsche, this is noting new. If all one wants is a cheap(relative) car to go fast then the Vette could be for you. Most who have the means would buy Porsche quality and performance. To each there own. Look at the CD stats and one sees a 400HP car that is 2 TENTHS of a second quicker than a 325HP car. Typical US muscle car that MUST use gobs more HP to barely beat a 6cly in straight line. The CD numbers show one thing, on the street 2 tenths means nothing, especially with the 911 breaking better. 
Re: Ahem!
Quote:
Yargk said:Quote:
Texas911 said:
Yea, good point, when the Z06 comes out then they'll test that with the S. They were testing BASE models of both cars.
But Road and track went ahead and tested the Corvette and the 997S. The Vette still won because of price. If you consider that a win?
To the point, how can the GT3 remain the ultimate track day weapon with the threat of a cheaper 500 hp corvette C6 Z06 that handles just as well.
they are also talking about making a gt3 ANNILATING club sport z06
Re: 911 vs. Vette posted on caranddriver.com
Quote:
NeverLift said:
Some how I get the feeling the new C6 ZO6 will not be that cheap. Chevy embarrass Porsche what balone. Any tard who compares a 500+HP car to a 355HP doesn't have a clue. You are using the bang for the buck argument like the US rags. The ZO6 will be a high model range monster. It should be compaired to the HIGH range 911, the 997TT and 997GT2 if made. Chevy will NEVER have the built quality of Porsche or fit and finish, not to mention driver feed back. Some would consider THAT an embarrasment. LOL In typical muscle fashion the Vette must use a ton of HP to compete with Porsche, this is noting new. If all one wants is a cheap(relative) car to go fast then the Vette could be for you. Most who have the means would buy Porsche quality and performance. To each there own. Look at the CD stats and one sees a 400HP car that is 2 TENTHS of a second quicker than a 325HP car. Typical US muscle car that MUST use gobs more HP to barely beat a 6cly in straight line. The CD numbers show one thing, on the street 2 tenths means nothing, especially with the 911 breaking better.
You are living in a world past. Porsche build quality and customer satisifaction is PLUMMETING while GM's is SOARING. GM used to sit on the top of the heap and allowed the Germans and Japanese to do precisely what the Germans are allowing the Americans to do now. Price aside even, Americans are embarassing the Germans - witness the new Vette and the Ford GT. All Porsche has now that they've sold their sole for profits is posuer appeal to the little penised status symbol seekers. I've never owned a Vette though I've owned three Porsches (currently have two), but I bet there's a much better chance my next car(s) is (are) a Vette and/or Ford GT than a Porsche.
Re: 911 vs. Vette posted on caranddriver.com
Hmm..."sold their sole (sic) for profits is posuer (sic) appeal to the little penised (sic) status symbol seekers" Pretty provocative. I understand your frustration re: your troublesome Cayenne TT. But, why is it so hard to understand that there are reasonable people that prefer a Porsche to a Corvette?
Your experience with the C-TT sucks. But, it is not universal. For the record, I had a 2004 C-S before trading in for a 2004 C-TT. The C-S had many problems well documented...hesitation, rear window pop-up, poorly functioning rear hatch closure, etc. But, my 2004 C-TT was flawless.
Having driven a Corvette and a 997S, I really preferred the feel of the 997S. As with all finer things, much of the appeal may be subjective. I recently had a argument with someone re: Polk speakers versus ProAc speakers. Sure the Polk speakers were 1/3 the cost and sounded fine playing Metallica, I prefer the nuances of the ProAc's when trying to hear the cellos in the final movement of the Pastoral symphony.
Live and let live man. You prefer F-cars. I prefer the daily drivability and near F-car performance of a Porsche.
Peace.
Your experience with the C-TT sucks. But, it is not universal. For the record, I had a 2004 C-S before trading in for a 2004 C-TT. The C-S had many problems well documented...hesitation, rear window pop-up, poorly functioning rear hatch closure, etc. But, my 2004 C-TT was flawless.
Having driven a Corvette and a 997S, I really preferred the feel of the 997S. As with all finer things, much of the appeal may be subjective. I recently had a argument with someone re: Polk speakers versus ProAc speakers. Sure the Polk speakers were 1/3 the cost and sounded fine playing Metallica, I prefer the nuances of the ProAc's when trying to hear the cellos in the final movement of the Pastoral symphony.
Live and let live man. You prefer F-cars. I prefer the daily drivability and near F-car performance of a Porsche.
Peace.
Re: 911 vs. Vette posted on caranddriver.com
Ben,
nobody forces you to drive a Porsche instead of a Vette and I do understand your feelings regarding Porsche's current strategy.
In fact I suspect a lot of people have a similiar opinion like you which might result to a certain extend in a slightly lower resale value as RC indicated in other topics.
I have a strong aversion towards GM due to their rather poor layout on the vast majority of their cars and their ridiculous marketing strategy. Anybody who complains about Porsche's stategy should keep an eye on GM's. I can name one issue that is pretty urgent right now: OPEL!
Some might say that this won't be too important for most US citizens but quite a portion of development for the worldwide market is/was done in Rüsselsheim.
I give Porsche credit for one thing: they are pretty human in terms of labour and everything regarding this issue.
Porsche is not choosing low-labour countries to build their products and to me this is a factor.
A few people won't care at all if their daughter's plastic toys are build in China, their carpet hand-knitted in India and their Nike-shoes built in Indonesia (?). Well, I am getting of topic...
Anyways, I do agree on the reliability issue and that is definately something to work on, even if Porsche further joins forces with other manufacturers. I don't think anybody cares if electronic components will be in common with the ones on Audis or VWs!
Regarding the hp figures the above mentioned C6 - 997 comparo says enough, doesn't it?
In the end, it's a free market. Let's be happy about it!
nobody forces you to drive a Porsche instead of a Vette and I do understand your feelings regarding Porsche's current strategy.
In fact I suspect a lot of people have a similiar opinion like you which might result to a certain extend in a slightly lower resale value as RC indicated in other topics.
I have a strong aversion towards GM due to their rather poor layout on the vast majority of their cars and their ridiculous marketing strategy. Anybody who complains about Porsche's stategy should keep an eye on GM's. I can name one issue that is pretty urgent right now: OPEL!
Some might say that this won't be too important for most US citizens but quite a portion of development for the worldwide market is/was done in Rüsselsheim.
I give Porsche credit for one thing: they are pretty human in terms of labour and everything regarding this issue.
Porsche is not choosing low-labour countries to build their products and to me this is a factor.
A few people won't care at all if their daughter's plastic toys are build in China, their carpet hand-knitted in India and their Nike-shoes built in Indonesia (?). Well, I am getting of topic...
Anyways, I do agree on the reliability issue and that is definately something to work on, even if Porsche further joins forces with other manufacturers. I don't think anybody cares if electronic components will be in common with the ones on Audis or VWs!
Regarding the hp figures the above mentioned C6 - 997 comparo says enough, doesn't it?
In the end, it's a free market. Let's be happy about it!
Re: Keep in mind these words of wisdom
Quote:
alin2 said:Quote:
MaxErnst said:
"arguing on the internet is like the Special Olympics, even if you win, you are still mentally challenged."
Now that's a fact...
uh..., now wait a minute..., ummm..., which one of us won the argument here?
just kidding.
Re: 911 vs. Vette posted on caranddriver.com
Quote:
alin2 said:
Hmm..."sold their sole (sic) for profits is posuer (sic) appeal to the little penised (sic) status symbol seekers" Pretty provocative. I understand your frustration re: your troublesome Cayenne TT. But, why is it so hard to understand that there are reasonable people that prefer a Porsche to a Corvette?
Your experience with the C-TT sucks. But, it is not universal. For the record, I had a 2004 C-S before trading in for a 2004 C-TT. The C-S had many problems well documented...hesitation, rear window pop-up, poorly functioning rear hatch closure, etc. But, my 2004 C-TT was flawless.
Having driven a Corvette and a 997S, I really preferred the feel of the 997S. As with all finer things, much of the appeal may be subjective. I recently had a argument with someone re: Polk speakers versus ProAc speakers. Sure the Polk speakers were 1/3 the cost and sounded fine playing Metallica, I prefer the nuances of the ProAc's when trying to hear the cellos in the final movement of the Pastoral symphony.
Live and let live man. You prefer F-cars. I prefer the daily drivability and near F-car performance of a Porsche.
Peace.
My 993 (was) and my 4 year old 996 (has been) flawless though it doesn't take much reading of these boards (as well as JD Powers and other surveys of actual customers) to find I've beat my 50%+ chance of having troubles. You seen the RMS polls lately? It's also amusing that modern Fcars are still not referred to as daily drivers while somehow the Pcars are. For example, have you seen the topic subjects on the 996 turbo board at 6speedonline with regards to problems? You won't see that on the modern Fcar boards. Wonder why? My 993 and 996 were built much closer to Porsche's racing days back when they were a sports car company doing R&D on the track instead of on customers. My CTT and the more recent 996s are more indicative of the soleless profit margin driven company which is just that much further away from it's racing roots.
Oh, and thanks for the spelling lessons. If I ever need to go back to work (or kindergarden), I'll check and see if you're available for some tutoring.
Re: 911 vs. Vette posted on caranddriver.com
Quote:
ben, lj said:Quote:
alin2 said:
Hmm..."sold their sole (sic) for profits is posuer (sic) appeal to the little penised (sic) status symbol seekers" Pretty provocative. I understand your frustration re: your troublesome Cayenne TT. But, why is it so hard to understand that there are reasonable people that prefer a Porsche to a Corvette?
Your experience with the C-TT sucks. But, it is not universal. For the record, I had a 2004 C-S before trading in for a 2004 C-TT. The C-S had many problems well documented...hesitation, rear window pop-up, poorly functioning rear hatch closure, etc. But, my 2004 C-TT was flawless.
Having driven a Corvette and a 997S, I really preferred the feel of the 997S. As with all finer things, much of the appeal may be subjective. I recently had a argument with someone re: Polk speakers versus ProAc speakers. Sure the Polk speakers were 1/3 the cost and sounded fine playing Metallica, I prefer the nuances of the ProAc's when trying to hear the cellos in the final movement of the Pastoral symphony.
Live and let live man. You prefer F-cars. I prefer the daily drivability and near F-car performance of a Porsche.
Peace.
My 993 (was) and my 4 year old 996 (has been) flawless though it doesn't take much reading of these boards (as well as JD Powers and other surveys of actual customers) to find I've beat my 50%+ chance of having troubles. You seen the RMS polls lately? It's also amusing that modern Fcars are still not referred to as daily drivers while somehow the Pcars are. For example, have you seen the topic subjects on the 996 turbo board at 6speedonline with regards to problems? You won't see that on the modern Fcar boards. Wonder why? My 993 and 996 were built much closer to Porsche's racing days back when they were a sports car company doing R&D on the track instead of on customers. My CTT and the more recent 996s are more indicative of the soleless profit margin driven company which is just that much further away from it's racing roots.
Oh, and thanks for the spelling lessons. If I ever need to go back to work (or kindergarden), I'll check and see if you're available for some tutoring.
Wow. Such hostility. Perhaps you should take a drive in your F-car? That way you can reaffirm your superior choice in purchasing an F-car.
But, as I said, IMHO, I prefer a Porsche to a Corvette. Is that so hard to swallow? I can't afford an F-car. Plus, for ME (not you Ben), it would look ridiculous for me to drive to the hospital in an F-car...during the winter...in the snow...I am glad you are so lucky to have the financial means to purchase an F-car. Go enjoy it! I'll go enjoy my 997S when it arrives!
No stress!
Peace.
Re: Keep in mind these words of wisdom
Quote:
MaxErnst said:Quote:
alin2 said:Quote:
MaxErnst said:
"arguing on the internet is like the Special Olympics, even if you win, you are still mentally challenged."
Now that's a fact...
uh..., now wait a minute..., ummm..., which one of us won the argument here?
No argument!
But, you gotta admit that it's funny how people always want to cram their opinion down everyone's throat in an internet forum like this.
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