Crown

Board: Porsche - 911 - 997 Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread


    Re: 997S severe system failure!

    Quote:
    JasonF said:
    IMHO, a lemon is a lemon whether it's a launch vehicle or the last one off the production line. It sounds like Skip's car does fall under the Colorado statute, unless we're missing some key facts. Since PCNA will apparently refund his money should the latest fix not work, I would imagine that Porsche agrees as well.

    I'm sure that most auto manufacturers realize that a certain percentage of their cars will be "lemoned" and chalk it up to the cost of doing business. It will be interesting to see what PCNA does with the car if they buy it back. BMW received some bad press several years ago when they supposedly "reconditioned" 7-Series models that were bought by BMW North America from unhappy customers and subsequently resold them at retail as certified pre-owned vehicles. I'm friendly with the sales manager of my local BMW dealership, and he acknowledged that they did indeed do that for several cars they sold.

    I have a '95 C4 that has been absolutely bulletproof during the time I've owned it. Aside from the wiring harness recall, many would argue that the '95's (the first-year run for the 993) is a more robust car than the 96-98 model years since the '95's OBD I system doesn't readily detect carbon build-up and other issues like the later model year's OBD II cars do.

    Skip, let us know how it turns out.



    Well said Lemon laws may be one of those few pro-consumer laws of value to protect consumers from car cos. not reasonably standing behind their products. Given BMW seems to be struggling w/M3 engines in "only" ?4th yr of production, it may be erroneous to only assume 1st produc yr cars are lemon-prone...

    Re: 997S severe system failure!

    Even if PNA has to take it back they'll just turn around and "off it" at a Manheim auction and probably get a good $$ for it. So they won't really be out that much. It will be wholesaled as a lemon. It's better to have happy customers.

    Re: 997S severe system failure!

    They have offered me compensation, or as the service manager put it "hush money", and I'll take it. However, what I told them is that I really want a car that doesn't have to be in the shop every other week to be "reset", and I don't want to have to visit them at all until the scheduled service intervals or a real problem. That they can't seem to figure out how to fix it is just plain silly, and my confidence in the car and Porsche has been shattered.

    I won't be driving the car much as I'm out of the country next week, but when I get back I hope to drive it a lot to see if it will remain fault-free for more than a few days or couple hundred miles. I'll report back later, and sincerely hope that it is a good report.

    Re: 997S severe system failure!

    Quote:
    My car has been in to get the "system fault" repaired at least five times, so it probably qualifies.

    The PCNA regional rep had them "fix" it again yesterday,



    What I would like to know is what is the problem that they are finding and fixing, or are they fishing, and just resetting the warning?
    I know that the new system tester is very menu driven for the tech, what are they finding?

    Re: 997S severe system failure!

    Quote:
    Skip said:
    They have offered me compensation, or as the service manager put it "hush money", and I'll take it.



    So you have obviously understood the concept of "hush money"!

    Re: 997S severe system failure!

    Clearly wasn't enough "hush money"

    Re: 997S severe system failure!

    Quote:
    JasonF said:
    IMHO, a lemon is a lemon whether it's a launch vehicle or the last one off the production line. ...



    That may be in fact a valid interpretation, but that does not invalidate the fact that 1st year production is prone to early bugs. There's always an exception to the rule, and that would be your experience w/ the 993, but 1st year problem statistics are a fact of life.

    Re: 997S severe system failure!





    That may be in fact a valid interpretation, but that does not invalidate the fact that 1st year production is prone to early bugs. There's always an exception to the rule, and that would be your experience w/ the 993, but 1st year problem statistics are a fact of life.



    I absolutely agree with you, first year bugs are a fact of life, and I'm carefully following anecdotal evidence of first-year reliability issues with the 997. My decision to buy vs. lease hinges on it. As an earlier poster noted, did the Porsche dealer actually replace suspected faulty parts, or were they fishing for an answer? The issue seems academic so long as (1) they figure it out and (2) it's to the satisfaction of the customer.

    I certainly understand Skip's frustration. At this point I would probably rather have a reliable Honda Civic over a tempermental 997 (well, almost).

    Re: 997S severe system failure!

    They've been replacing parts, "control units" of various sorts. It appears to be a game of "let something fail, read the data, reset the system, let it fail again, replace the faulty unit, reset the system, wait for something else to fail..."

    The fact that there have been multiple failures and they're still not sure why doesn't inspire confidence. Right now I'm again in the "drive it for a while and see what happens mode". While I don't really expect it to happen, what if something really important fails next time? What if I wreck, harming myself or someone else, because some system in the car fails? Right now I have "trust issues" with respect to the car, and that's not a good feeling to have! I'm driving the car, but I can't say that my level of enjoyment is what it would be if I thought that it wasn't going to break again in the near future. The phrase "waiting for the other shoe to drop" pretty well describes how I feel.

    Re: 997S severe system failure!

    Skip, I'm saddened to hear about your experience. I don't own a Porsche yet but I have been doing a lot of reading to immerse myself in the world of Porsche before I decide to buy. I have always been fed the line that Porsche build quality is bullet-proof and that this is reflected in the used car residual prices. Your story and those of others I have read on this site and on other sites have shaken my confidence in the new 997.

    I have come to believe that it can take up to 1-2 years to iron out the various gremlins on a new car. I had a test drive in an SL500 recently. It felt wonderful to drive but much less involving. More of a tourer than a sporty convertible. Anyway, even the SL500 has a well documented problem with water leaking into the boot and the brake by wire failed and 35,000 cars were recalled.

    Interestingly, larger German manufacturers appear to be taking this more seriously than smaller outfits like Porsche. In the UK, Mercedes is gradually replacing dealerships so that customers buy directly from Mercedes Benz UK rather than a franchised dealer who cannot guarantee standards of after sales service like a manufacturer can.

    At the end of the day, IMHO you get good dealers and poor dealers. I have always preferred going to dealers who are not in the centre of town, who are less busy and who are real enthusiasts. The rest are just interested only in your money. I have a BMW 328i which is nearly 5 years old. I have had a series of small technical problems which have all been fixed promptly by a variety of dealers over the years. No manufacturer is immune from this. I just wish cars were tested more thoroughly before launch. It just isn't acceptable that in order to keep the guys in suits happy, cars get rolled out even if they're 95% ready.

    Japanese manufacturers just aren't like that. I wish Lexus made real drivers' cars!

    Here in the UK, we have the Sale of Goods Act 1979. Goods should be of 'merchantable quality'. I guess you could check the UCC to see if that helps you in the US. I readily agree, a $100k car shouldn't give you so much grief.

    Similarly, I was shocked to read elsewhere that the TPMC has been temporarily withdrawn. Very sad indeed.

    Hope everything works out well for you.

    update

    guys,

    now, that a weeks has passed, i thought i would give a update on the story that started all this:

    on friday (after NOT hearing from the dealer for 4 days), i called up the dealer. the guy who was my service advisior was out, so i talked to the manager. after the usual bull$#!#, he says he will call me back.

    he never called me back, so i called them up today, monday. now my service guy was available. i asked him why i hadn't heard back and he says that the part has to fly in from germany, this may take weeks. i asked him why they first offered to leave the car with them for 2 days, until the part is in? after some back and forth, i gave up, knowing that i will not go back there anyways. i them asked him why my car was VERY dusty on the inside & outside? he says that they are the #1 rated dealership in the US, and they always take good care of their clients cars, why mine was so dirty, he didn't have an answer for. he finished with saying: "sir, you have may choices, maybe another dealership will handle your car better...". at that point, i hung up on him. i had enough for the day...

    -r

    Re: update

    Good grief, what the hell is wrong with Porsche? It's one thing for there to be a bad car and poor dealer, but it seems that this is a trend.

    If anyone from Porsche (Germany, US, whatever) is listening, be careful that you don't [censored] too many people off. The customer is always right, and it seems that Porsche has forgotten that.

    Re: update

    Quote:
    ossi said:
    ... he says that they are the #1 rated dealership in the US, and they always take good care of their clients cars, why mine was so dirty, he didn't have an answer for. he finished with saying: "sir, you have may choices, maybe another dealership will handle your car better...". at that point, i hung up on him. i had enough for the day...

    -r



    Is it McKenna? (It would explain the dirty car, parking on the street, thinking they are #1) Or BH or the Auto Gallery?

    Re: todays update

    today i had an appointment at another dealership here in LA. i got referred to this one by a co-worker who owns a 911 for years. i called the service guy yesterday and he agreed to see me on short notice, even they are really busy. that was a good sign after all i had been thru.

    at 10am i arrived there and while waiting for the guy, i had a chance to take a very close look at the garage and the mechanics. while, no surprize, also this one wasn't "pretty" and everything looked a bit messy, at least the mechanics looked friendly and not to dirty.

    after a short wait, the service guy pulled my 997 next to one of the mechanics computer stands an asked him to do some diagnostics. i was allowed to stay there with him, and got some nice glimpse at the porsche diagnostics screen.

    he plugged in the cable and started the "module identification session". everytime the computer finds a module, it make that madules lettering bold/black, in a list of modules. everytime a module has a software/memory issue, the pound sign (#) gets painted in front of the module name. let's just say: "there are a lot of # signs on my car's modules".

    after the initial diagnostics, he went into every module's info screen to get some mor info. most of the modules had memory faults. most of them pointed to the "front control module". some of them pointed to the "steering angle sensor" like skip has been describing.

    after a while of clickin gand reading, he pulled over another mechanic and now this one did the reading...

    this wen on for a while. an the end, they told me something along the lines of:

    "there are a lot of faults and errors on your car but they all seem to have originated from the same module, the front-contold-module. we will have to order one. it will be here tomorrow." then they went on and said: "we had one car, during pre-sale inspection, had a similar problem and we exchanged the module and it was fine ever since."

    so, after all, i am happy with this dealership. they where very nice and tried to help and they took good care of the car. i will wait and see if they get the module in in 1-2 days and then have them replace it. this module doesn't require a lot of work, it can be accessed via the front trunk.

    they also told me that there seems to be confusion about the software versions used in some of these modules, and the software version used in some of the porsche diagnostics computers. sometimes they say, if they are not compatibel, the computer leads to wrong modules. i just hope that in my case, everything is compatibel.

    skip, the software version of the pirsche diagnostics device at this dealership was "4.01". just in case you want to compare that to your case. the firmware on my front contol module is "101".

    more nes to come... i am sure...

    -r

    Re: todays update

    Ossi-
    Good luck, at the very least the new dealership had some experience with your problem...

    UPDATE Re: system failure

    hi all!

    here i's an update regarding the "severe system failure":

    today, i had an appointment at a new dealership to get the "front control module" replaced. the module finally got "flown in" from germany after PCNA had been made "aware" of my trouble via PorscheAG Germany (thanks to a certain individual on this forum "german magic" happend and made things "move"... at last...). so my car was handed to the shop foreman and got immediate attention. i was handed a brand new audi which model number wwas > 6 :-)

    late afternoon i got a call, the car was ready. when i picked up the car, i had a chat with the service manager and got the following info, which might be interesting for skip and others:

    * P-AG is aware of the problem, however, at this point, there is no official "service notice"
    * the standard procedure to fix this problem is to replace the front-control module AND the ENTIRE front latch mechanism
    * rumors have it that "there is something not right" with the sealing of the front latch mechanism, so water can get to it

    unfortunately, the front-latch mechanism is on back order (translation: not available right now) so i will have to visit them again, as P-AG reccomended that they replace it on my car.

    interesting side info: this dealership has another customer with the same problem. module on backorder for him :-( are you here?

    overall, i am very pleased with this dealership and the service/mechanic guys. they took good care of my car and i actually got the car back as clean as i left it, without them actually cleaning it (NOBODY touches ossi's 997!!! :-) ).

    what might be interesting to skip is that the foreman thinks that some of the messages coming up on the diagnostics screen, are misleading, due to a firmware/software incompatibility between the diagnostic device and the early firmware in the front-control modules.

    therefore, replacing the "steering angle sensor" is actually not needed, and will fix nothing. it is the front-control module and the latch servos that are the trouble makers.

    anyways, i will keep you posted and case the issue comes back. fingers crossed for now...

    -r

    ps: many thanks to (you know who you are) for P-AG magic!

    UPDATE Re: system failure

    Glad to hear you got your 997 fixed and thank you for sharing information about it.

    As for this forum, its impossible to praise it enough. The quality of information and reporting is a true joy.

    Cheers!

    Jim

    Re: UPDATE Re: system failure

    OSSI, where does this "front control module" reside in the car?
    Is the front latch mechanism that is not sealed the one for the front storage compartment lid?
    If so, that sounds more than a bit worrying.

    I hope your car is truly fixed.

    This forum is, indeed, a wealth of information. I appreciate the efforts of all concerned with making it possible.

    Re: UPDATE Re: system failure

    here are some pictures...

    Re: UPDATE Re: system failure

    more...

    Re: UPDATE Re: system failure

    another one...

    Re: UPDATE Re: system failure

    this weekend i will make some closeups of the latch mechanism. i will also "investigate" where and how the water can get in. the rubber sealing basically has a big hole for the lever one uses to upen the hood. water can get in there without problems. the whole unit is exposed, weven from mist from below. i assume that the microswitch mechanism is supposed to be water tight, but actually isn't... i will post pictures... this is fun... i feel like car-detective... NO, IT ISN'T...

    Re: UPDATE Re: system failure

    Ossi-

    I'd love to know which dealership gave you a hard time...
    I do all my business with Beverly Hills Porsche. I have a service advisor there that I have been happy with for years.

    Re: UPDATE Re: system failure

    Hey Ossi,

    Thanks for all the info! Hopefully, they'll come up with a permanent fix for the situation for you soon. Thanks for the pics. Here's to your newly functioning 997S!

    Re: UPDATE Re: system failure

    OSSI, looking at the photos of the location of the "front control module" it seems that water would be more likely to reach it from the side or above around the windshield wiper/washer area than coming up from the latch.
    Am I missing something?

    Re: UPDATE Re: system failure

    the water gets into the latch, causing a short in the latch, causing a software error in the module, possibly even a hardware issue in the module. the module itself, is inside the sealed compartment, no water "should" get to it, whatsoever.

    the latch mechanism & the servos are the problem.

    Re: UPDATE Re: system failure

    ossi,

    The PCNA rep for my region contacted me yesterday and they're replacing the latch on my car as part of my most recent 6-day service visit. I agreed to give Porsche "one more chance" and will be driving, washing, and otherwise doing everything I can to cause a system fault over the next few days. If the car has another system fault, the rep has agreed to make the replacement/refund process as easy as possible.

    I am being more than fair to Porsche, and some would say that I'm being a fool, but I really do like this car and this marque. That being said, if I have to take the car back one more time for a system fault, it will be the last time I do so.

    ossi, PCNA knows all about the hood latch problems, and the "front desk engineer" in Atlanta knows all about it. Get your dealer to take a good latch and other units off of a car on the lot if necessary, which is what mine is doing.

    Re: UPDATE Re: system failure

    skip, do you have any more technical details regarding the latch? i.e. where the water entry is happening? i noticed that there are 2 wires going into the latch, to some sort of sensor. it looks like there is a gasket/rubber seal issue there. any info there?

    Re: UPDATE Re: system failure

    OSSI & SKIP, thanks for your invaluable information on this matter (real for you, potentially real for the rest of us). Your even-tempered approach to resolving these problems has allowed a resolution to be found, we hope, without all the acrimony that revolves around litigation. I would like to think that I could be as reserved in dealing with the situation were I in your shoes. For what it is worth I commend you both.

    Re: UPDATE Re: system failure

    That logo on the control module tells us a great deal about how PAG is sourcing parts from an American company DELPHI. Not a good sign to me.

     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part II) 4/17/24 7:16 AM
    GnilM
    779005 1798
    Porsche Sticky Welcome to Rennteam: Cars and Coffee... (photos) 4/7/24 11:48 AM
    Boxster Coupe GTS
    442198 565
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Cayman GT4 RS (2021) 5/12/23 12:11 PM
    W8MM
    263078 288
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Porsche 911 (992) GT3 RS - 2022 3/12/24 8:28 AM
    DJM48
    261357 323
    Porsche Sticky The new Macan: the first all-electric SUV from Porsche 1/30/24 9:18 AM
    RCA
    85591 45
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Taycan 2024 Facelift 3/15/24 1:23 PM
    CGX car nut
    5786 50
    Porsche The moment I've been waiting for... 2/1/24 7:01 PM
    Pilot
     
     
     
     
     
    881057 1364
    Porsche 992 GT3 7/23/23 7:01 PM
    Grant
    817353 3868
    Porsche Welcome to the new Taycan Forum! 2/10/24 4:43 PM
    nberry
    391454 1526
    Porsche GT4RS 4/21/24 11:50 AM
    mcdelaug
    390985 1454
    Others Tesla 2 the new thread 12/13/23 2:48 PM
    CGX car nut
    373280 2401
    Porsche Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design 7/3/23 12:30 PM
    Porker
    369201 797
    Porsche Red Nipples 991.2 GT3 Touring on tour 4/11/24 12:32 PM
    Ferdie
    289544 668
    Porsche Collected my 997 GTS today 10/19/23 7:06 PM
    CGX car nut
     
     
     
     
     
    261591 812
    Lambo Huracán EVO STO 7/30/23 6:59 PM
    mcdelaug
    240461 346
    Lotus Lotus Emira 6/25/23 2:53 PM
    Enmanuel
    230874 101
    Others Corvette C8 10/16/23 3:24 PM
    Enmanuel
    221406 488
    Others Gordon Murray - T.50 11/22/23 10:27 AM
    mcdelaug
    169585 387
    Porsche Back to basics - 996 GT3 RS 6/11/23 5:13 PM
    CGX car nut
    141335 144
    BMW M 2024 BMW M3 CS Official Now 12/29/23 9:04 AM
    RCA
    117848 303
    Motor Sp. 2023 Formula One 12/19/23 5:38 AM
    WhoopsyM
    108863 685
    Porsche 2022 992 Safari Model 3/7/24 4:22 PM
    WhoopsyM
    84381 239
    AMG Mercedes-Benz W124 500E aka Porsche typ 2758 2/23/24 10:03 PM
    blueflame
    75236 297
    Porsche 992 GT3 RS 3/3/24 7:22 PM
    WhoopsyM
    53947 314
    Motor Sp. Porsche 963 3/16/24 9:27 PM
    WhoopsyM
    25278 237
    Ferrari Ferrari 296 GTB (830PS, Hybrid V6) 1/21/24 4:29 PM
    GT-Boy
    21193 103
    BMW M 2022 BMW M5 CS 4/8/24 1:43 PM
    Ferdie
    19547 140
    AMG G63 sold out 9/15/23 7:38 PM
    Nico997
    16602 120
    AMG [2022] Mercedes-AMG SL 4/23/24 1:24 PM
    RCA
    13852 225
    Motor Sp. 24-Hour race Nürburgring 2018 5/25/23 10:42 PM
    Grant
    11274 55
    126 items found, displaying 1 to 30.