Crown

Carlos from Spain:

Doesn't have to be a financial drain, it's more like bad luck that it was the gearbox, I put 200,000km on a 997S -20mm manual without any issues, and his 997S with the -20mm and PDK is a great fun daily driver which is what he uses it for, if he sells it he would not be able to buy something even close to what the 997-20mm offers for the same money.

True but since sh.t usually happens more than once, what about other possible issues in the future? Risky.

I would sell it and get myself something fun, maybe that Alpine he seems to like or whatever.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

nberry:

Why do you want to keep the car? I suspect this will only be the beginning of the financial drain. 

Carlos answered what I was going to say .

Selling the car like this would be a disaster . I would get hardly any money for it . I have to repair it .

Another thing is I would not even know what to replace it with .  No other DD is tempting . I would need to put 100k for what ?  I don't need more power, I don't need more confort , I don't need the latest ...  I have my RS for pure power and handling , I have my 964 for crusing . 

Also, I tend to like my cars more and more as time passes . 

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 

RC:

 

I would sell it and get myself something fun, maybe that Alpine he seems to like or whatever.

I would get max 20k for it . If I repair it , it will worth 40 or 45 k  and above that  I will not have to spend 60k for the Alpine 

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 

Here is what I have found out about those ZF gearboxes over the last tree days . 

- The problem I have is a known issue . It is code P1731, shift rod displacement sensors . It happens on those boxes .

- There is no mechanical problem, only an electronic problem . The broken part would cost about 500 euro but it is  located in the middle of the gear boxe, so it needs to be open , something Porsche is not allowed to do . One  also needs special tool to do that job and the inside is complicated . Most garages don't want to touch it .

- The broken sensor can not be ordered anywhere . Even at ZF .  So some shops try to find broken boxes or crashed cars to get the parts from there . 

I have asked from California to the UK, Germany , Belgium, France, Switzerland    and searched forums .

Only two guys said they could do something . One in France, but he needs 3 month in order to find the part needed, and another one in Belgium  , who could do it  immediately .

All the other ones I have asked ( UK, CA, D ) have finally said no as they can't order the sensors . 

ZF has offered to sell me a refurbished box at 1/2 price of a new one . 

A very big thank you to Ferdie, ISUK, Spudgun and martini964 for their very helpful contacts and messages    . It is well appreciated .  

And to conclude : Porsche knows certainly that these gear boxes end up with electronic problems . It is fine as long as the car in on guarantee , or extended guarantee, but it is expected that after a some years , or change of a few owners , people will not buy the warranties anymore ( which is pretty normal ) and then this minor problem does actually make these cars worthless all of a sudden .  Porsche should spontaneously offer refurbished gearboxes , or have a deal with ZF to have them fixed . It is not normal to leave the customer with no alternative then to have to buy a new box that cost 16k when the problem comes from a sensor that costs 500 euro 

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 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 

Reminds me of the RMS leak from the 986/996's all over again 

Guessing you will be taking it to Belgium? Keep us posted Gnil 

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

Carlos from Spain:

Reminds me of the RMS leak from the 986/996's all over again 

Guessing you will be taking it to Belgium? Keep us posted Gnil 

I have one of the very first PDK cars, so this kind of problem will just become more common in the next months, years . 

I am still debating about getting a refurbished boxe from ZF , where I would not need to do anything as they would send the boxe to my garage or have my car sent to Belgium  and have it repaired at that garage which would cost me a couple thousand euro less , but be more of a hassle . 

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 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 

It's crazy that ZF do not sell replacement sensors if it is a known issue. I'm guessing that Porsche may have dictated something in their original supply contract with ZF which precludes this in order to prevent third party specialists taking busiess away from the Porsche dealer network. It's a short sighted move when you consider how many cars from the 997.2 generation on have been bought with PDK gearboxes and how much Porsche boast about the large percentage of 911's still on the road from the start of production.

It sounds like there is a need for one of the specialists to get on the case with finding a solution to repair these sensors. Does the half price offer of a reconditioned box from ZF come with any sort of warranty and does that price include you having to give your current box as a core exchange unit? I guess the only way this option makes sense is if there is a decent warranty and you expect to keep the car for a few more years to get your value back out of it.

If the overall cost is only a couple of thousand euros more to go for the reconditioned ZF box with some sort of warranty then that is the way I'd go as you will at least have recourse back to ZF if the box fails again. The peace of mind alone is worth it for a car that is a DD.

+1

997.2 4S / BMW X5 40e / Donkervoort GT 

Gnil:

nberry:

Why do you want to keep the car? I suspect this will only be the beginning of the financial drain. 

Carlos answered what I was going to say .

Selling the car like this would be a disaster . I would get hardly any money for it . I have to repair it .

Another thing is I would not even know what to replace it with .  No other DD is tempting . I would need to put 100k for what ?  I don't need more power, I don't need more confort , I don't need the latest ...  I have my RS for pure power and handling , I have my 964 for crusing . 

Also, I tend to like my cars more and more as time passes . 

All car manufacturer’s build in obsolescence including Porsche. Since it’s your DD expect more mechanical problems. But as long as you believe it’s worth having then follow Isuk advice regarding the used PDK box. That said, you will need a hefty bank account which I am confident you have.

Having everything is nice, but it's even nicer to make sure everything you've got is actually worth having.

I would hesitate to sell my 997.2 too, I appreciate the car more and more the older it gets. In fact: I just had it overhauled, from new dampers to every rubber replaced, so I can enjoy it in years to come. It is still a special car to drive.

Will pray to the P1731 gods though.

997.2 4S / BMW X5 40e / Donkervoort GT 

ISUK:

If the overall cost is only a couple of thousand euros more to go for the reconditioned ZF box with some sort of warranty then that is the way I'd go as you will at least have recourse back to ZF if the box fails again. The peace of mind alone is worth it for a car that is a DD.

+2 The difference in the long run would probably be even less than 2k since you would likely be getting a new clutches as well in that reconditioned box, since it is a daily driver.

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⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

Carlos from Spain:

ISUK:

If the overall cost is only a couple of thousand euros more to go for the reconditioned ZF box with some sort of warranty then that is the way I'd go as you will at least have recourse back to ZF if the box fails again. The peace of mind alone is worth it for a car that is a DD.

+2 The difference in the long run would probably be even less than 2k since you would likely be getting a new clutches as well in that reconditioned box, since it is a daily driver.

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⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

 

+3 Not to mention that you won't even know if the work has been done properly if you send the car to Belgium. If it fails again, you'll be back to square one with the hassle to send it back again to Belgium with no guarantee of success. With ZF, you're at least sure that the work has been done by people who know what they're doing. 

Bit of a side issue, but this confirms my cautious approach of always taking out extended warranty on our Porsches, now offer cover up to 15 years old. Peace of mind! 

Porsche Boxster 981 GTS Carrara white / VW Golf GTI 5dr DSG Tornado Red

ZF also says the refurbished gearboxes has all the latest upgrades ( not sure if this is just BS talk or if there is really new stuff inside ) 

I will go down that route as it makes the most sense .

The more I think about what official solution Porsche is offering , the more I get pissed off , as it is taking customers for a ride .

Saying you need to buy a new gearbox that cost 16k + install for a broken sensor that cost 500 + work ,  is abuse . 

Here is a diagram of the sensors :

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 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 

spudgun:

I would hesitate to sell my 997.2 too, I appreciate the car more and more the older it gets. In fact: I just had it overhauled, from new dampers to every rubber replaced, so I can enjoy it in years to come. It is still a special car to drive.

Will pray to the P1731 gods though.

Thanks for you help . It was actually one of the unique alternative possible .

Long live the 997 

I just did what you did on my 964 . 

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 

nberry:

 

All car manufacturer’s build in obsolescence including Porsche. Since it’s your DD expect more mechanical problems. But as long as you believe it’s worth having then follow Isuk advice regarding the used PDK box. That said, you will need a hefty bank account which I am confident you have.

My car is 75% depreciated . Keeping it a few more years will only make it drop a few thousand. 

If I would buy a new car  ( lets say 992 ) I would loose 30k ( at least )  in the first year . 50k over two years . 

The calculation as to what is cheaper to do , is easy .  Gives my quite some margin on repairs on the 997

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 

Eric, I understand your hesitation but maybe it is time for something new? 

If you don't want to spend again money for a car, try to fix it and I am pretty sure it is somehow possible in a way or another, I wouldn't trust the official dealer here (not because they are not competent but because they often have no other possibilities as an official dealer than to exchange parts, not repair them).

If the gearbox itself is OK and it is only a sensor thing, definitely try to repair the car.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

As I understood from Gnil's post further up, the faulty sensor cannot be supplied separately either from ZF or elsewhere. So you must first find a used sensor from a breaker's yard and trust an independent workshop to open up your gearbox in order to fit the sensor. Too risky IMO.

The only option is the refurbished complete box from ZF with warranty. If this is a half price of the Porsche offer it might end up at €8-9K which is not the end of the world to keep a 997.2, which IMO is a top 911 model,  on the road.

When you see that even a half decent 3 series spec is around €50.000 and <€40.000 after a year's depreciation the cost of fixing the 997 is not that prohibitive.

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"Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

He isn't repairing the existing gearbox. He is getting a factory refurbished exchange gearbox direct from the manufacturer ZF with the latest revisions that should make it more reliable. Repair of the existing box looks to be a no go as there is nobody yet offering a proven and reliable aftermarket replacement part for the failed sensor. If this becomes an ongoing problem for early PDK equipped cars then a Porsche specialist will almost certainly step in to fill this gap in the market.

Anything mechanical can break and can be fixed. It seems Nick and RC have bought into the manufacturers throw away and replace with new culture. If everyone followed that logic there would be no classics around   As Eric has pointed out the basic arithmetic involved in repairing a car he clearly loves and has owned for many years is far less than the cost of replacing with a new car.

ISUK:

He isn't repairing the existing gearbox. He is getting a factory refurbished exchange gearbox direct from the manufacturer ZF with the latest revisions that should make it more reliable. Repair of the existing box looks to be a no go as there is nobody yet offering a proven and reliable aftermarket replacement part for the failed sensor. If this becomes an ongoing problem for early PDK equipped cars then a Porsche specialist will almost certainly step in to fill this gap in the market.

Anything mechanical can break and can be fixed. It seems Nick and RC have bought into the manufacturers throw away and replace with new culture. If everyone followed that logic there would be no classics around   As Eric has pointed out the basic arithmetic involved in repairing a car he clearly loves and has owned for many years is far less than the cost of replacing with a new car.

+1 , if I were in this situation I would go this route...a Porsche (he likes) is not all about money and / or resale value, but old fashioned "passion" as well ...

d997h:

ISUK:

He isn't repairing the existing gearbox. He is getting a factory refurbished exchange gearbox direct from the manufacturer ZF with the latest revisions that should make it more reliable. Repair of the existing box looks to be a no go as there is nobody yet offering a proven and reliable aftermarket replacement part for the failed sensor. If this becomes an ongoing problem for early PDK equipped cars then a Porsche specialist will almost certainly step in to fill this gap in the market.

Anything mechanical can break and can be fixed. It seems Nick and RC have bought into the manufacturers throw away and replace with new culture. If everyone followed that logic there would be no classics around   As Eric has pointed out the basic arithmetic involved in repairing a car he clearly loves and has owned for many years is far less than the cost of replacing with a new car.

+1 , if I were in this situation I would go this route...a Porsche (he likes) is not all about money and / or resale value, but old fashioned "passion" as well ...

Of course I would try to repair it but if it costs too much, I don't know if it is worth it, other issues could arise. Unless of course he goes the whole hog and gives the whole car (engine, etc.) an overhaul. Could cost some serious money but in the end, he gets to keep and drive his car for another decade. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

Gnil:

nberry:

 

All car manufacturer’s build in obsolescence including Porsche. Since it’s your DD expect more mechanical problems. But as long as you believe it’s worth having then follow Isuk advice regarding the used PDK box. That said, you will need a hefty bank account which I am confident you have.

My car is 75% depreciated . Keeping it a few more years will only make it drop a few thousand. 

If I would buy a new car  ( lets say 992 ) I would loose 30k ( at least )  in the first year . 50k over two years . 

The calculation as to what is cheaper to do , is easy .  Gives my quite some margin on repairs on the 997

Time and inconvenience is money. Your 997 will have additional problems causing it to be out of service and you running around trying to find a shop to repair it. That’s inherent in all cars. As I posted earlier, if you love the car as DD keep it. Before doing so, you should explore alternatives. 

Btw, I acknowledge I’m not a fan of older cars. Too many good new cars.

Having everything is nice, but it's even nicer to make sure everything you've got is actually worth having.

nberry:

Gnil:

nberry:

 

All car manufacturer’s build in obsolescence including Porsche. Since it’s your DD expect more mechanical problems. But as long as you believe it’s worth having then follow Isuk advice regarding the used PDK box. That said, you will need a hefty bank account which I am confident you have.

My car is 75% depreciated . Keeping it a few more years will only make it drop a few thousand. 

If I would buy a new car  ( lets say 992 ) I would loose 30k ( at least )  in the first year . 50k over two years . 

The calculation as to what is cheaper to do , is easy .  Gives my quite some margin on repairs on the 997

Time and inconvenience is money. Your 997 will have additional problems causing it to be out of service and you running around trying to find a shop to repair it. That’s inherent in all cars. As I posted earlier, if you love the car as DD keep it. Before doing so, you should explore alternatives. 

Btw, I acknowledge I’m not a fan of older cars. Too many good new cars.

 

Same here but with the emissions stuff going on, I think that the "good" new cars will be soon "good" old cars because there won't be any new "good" cars, unless you want to go from 0-60 mph in 2 seconds, which isn't necessarily the equivalent for a "good" car but a fast car. Not the same thing. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

I like the idea of prolonging the life of cars by repairing them .

 Why change my 997 . I am fully happy with it . I use it as a DD in congested city and suburban area and some as congested highway . What other car would replace it ? No new one at the moment . I have zero interest in a 992 Carrera 

Change for the sake of changing ?  No . Better spend my money on older cars   I could be tempted by an Aston vantage V12 manual , but otherwise  

And as stated I have some other cars for other stuff . I can always take the Audi Q7 if I need space or latest tech . Or the Mini JCW if my Carrera is at the garage 

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 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 

+1 makes perfect sense to me

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

+2

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"Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

I’m not suggesting you change for the sake of changing but rather to view this as an opportunity to investigate what’s out there. Change and variety are a spice of life. You really haven’t investigated what is out there because your mind is closed when it comes to the ancient 997.
 

No matter, your mind is made up. Buying a rebuilt PDK box is your best option as long as it comes with a reasonable warranty. 

Having everything is nice, but it's even nicer to make sure everything you've got is actually worth having.

nberry:

I’m not suggesting you change for the sake of changing but rather to view this as an opportunity to investigate what’s out there. Change and variety are a spice of life. You really haven’t investigated what is out there because your mind is closed when it comes to the ancient 997.
 

No matter, your mind is made up. Buying a rebuilt PDK box is your best option as long as it comes with a reasonable warranty. 

That ancient 997 has more character than most new vehicles, which seemed designed as soulless as possible.  A DD doesn’t require a state-of-the-art infotainment system with augmented reality navigation as he knows exactly where he is going.  

Not to mention the attachment some people have to cars that turned out great for them and given them many miles of enjoyment and experiences, that is a added value that many petrolheads can appreciate, and relive it when they grab the keys to the car.

There is value in both the newest of the newest as well as older cars. You can't get the same kart like experience on a 991 or 992 than on an agile 997-20mm for example, not to mention the sound after the 991.2. For outright performance and latest factor he already has a GT3RS.

And for a daily on speed controlled zones were Gnil drives it, it is a perfect car still, much better than more expensive newer options. As long as the car is reliable of course, but the issue here was just a faulty electronic sensor that happened to be inside the tranny, could of happened to any car, new or old.

Chasing always "only" the newest is a very superficial and short-lived reward and is not going to give same satisfaction imo than appreciating both the newest and the older cars you bonded with like an older gen 911, or a older car with character like that manual Aston V12 Gnil mentioned.
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⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS