Crown

nberry:

Nick, had Porsche indicated early in the development of the Taycan that the market segment they were targeting was substantially over $100,000 (not give a price) how many deposits do you think they would have received? FWIW, I'm not the only one who thought they were targeting the Tesla segment and Porsche never indicated otherwise. Classic bait and switch.

They never said any words one which part of the EV segment they are targeting to begin with.

They just said they are going into on the EV segment period. And they said the car will be a Porsche, with Porsche DNA.

Porsches were never a bargain to begin with, for that people flock to the Corvettes and Vipers anyways. 

It was the American internet people and journalists that put words in Porsche mouth that they are targeting the Tesla segment. They all assumed a Tesla is considered a 'performance' car, which washer first mistake, and then think since Porsche is also doing a 4 door EV sedan, it has to be a direct Model S competitor, that's the 2nd mistake. 

A performance car means it has all-around attributes, not just a one dimensional drag racing machine, and Porsches were never one dimensional machines, they are always all-arounders. 

For the rest of the world that don't rely on American press, there was never any doubt about the Taycan not being a Model S competitor.

Nick (Whoopsy),

One agrees with virtually every point you have posted in response to the other Nick's diatribe on Tesla v. Porsche.  Looking back through the files, one finds no evidence that Porsche officials declared Taycan pricing until it was released.  Porsche as a company and as part of the larger Volkswagen Group has infinitely greater resources available on market segmentation and pricing.  Tesla, on the other hand, follows the whims of its remaining founder when it comes to making major strategic decisions.  

The budget for the Taycan would never be approved by Porsche and Volkswagen Group management without a highly detailed product plan including pricing elasticities for the various markets.  Porsche, even before Volkswagen's oversight, possessed highly detailed studies of its core customer bases as well as those of its competition for every market segment it sells product.  This helped shape the final product, its pricing, and its performance parameters in every market Porsche will sell the Taycan.  

One understands that, because of the media's efforts to compare the Porsche with Tesla, some potential customers may fell slighted and Porsche, of course, could have been more proactive in staunching rumors.  However, producing the highest priced variants first allows Porsche to maximize media coverage while promoting its performance.  These variants will have relatively low demand, allowing Porsche to ramp production with a highly controlled approach.  Once its production methods are operating efficiently, Porsche will then rollout the lower priced variants as production efficiencies increase the overall profit margins on the cars and giving those lower cost, and lower performance models a halo effect from the top shelf models.  

Segueing away from pricing and product placement decisions, Porsche has yet to place product in the hands of journalists for full test articles.  Once those articles start appearing, discussions based on paper statistics are almost meaningless.  Production on the Taycan began last week Monday so those journalist reviews should happen within the next couple of months.  

20 Seconds faster than the Taycan?

"Hand-stopped, 7:23 minutes - Porsche beat easily"

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/elektroauto/tesla-model-s-vs-porsche-taycan-nordschleife-nuerburgring-rekord-rundenzeit-elek...

uh-oh... 

But..

"Our inside source describes the cars as being "stripped to the gunwales," the interiors fully gutted of anything apart from the necessary seats, harnesses, and driver controls—hence the dark-tinted windows, it seems. And we're nearly certain these prototypes are sporting a brand-new, three-motor ultra-high-performance drivetrain—one motor for each rear wheel, and one powering the front axle."

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/a29086205/modified-tesla-model-s-beats-porsche-taycan-nurburgring/

The Goodyear tires it's wearing was developed for the Camaro ZL1 1LE cars, in Camaro sizes, hence the fender flares. 

Those sucker are super sticky, GM and Good year brought a few over to our track for testing and those Camaros are well within striking distance of our street car track record, Done by a highly modified in the suspension department 991.1 GT3RS on Hoosiers. For completely stock car, my GT2RS right now holds the fastest time, still a couple seconds behind that GT3RS. 

Whoopsy:

nberry:

Nick, had Porsche indicated early in the development of the Taycan that the market segment they were targeting was substantially over $100,000 (not give a price) how many deposits do you think they would have received? FWIW, I'm not the only one who thought they were targeting the Tesla segment and Porsche never indicated otherwise. Classic bait and switch.

 

They never said any words one which part of the EV segment they are targeting to begin with.

They just said they are going into on the EV segment period. And they said the car will be a Porsche, with Porsche DNA.

Porsches were never a bargain to begin with, for that people flock to the Corvettes and Vipers anyways. 

It was the American internet people and journalists that put words in Porsche mouth that they are targeting the Tesla segment. They all assumed a Tesla is considered a 'performance' car, which washer first mistake, and then think since Porsche is also doing a 4 door EV sedan, it has to be a direct Model S competitor, that's the 2nd mistake. 

A performance car means it has all-around attributes, not just a one dimensional drag racing machine, and Porsches were never one dimensional machines, they are always all-arounders. 

For the rest of the world that don't rely on American press, there was never any doubt about the Taycan not being a Model S competitor.

Nick, you missed my point. Porsche went along with the various predictions about cost knowing that they had plan to charge substantially more. They collected the deposits with dirty hands  because they were well aware that the saps were place a deposit on a car they had been led to believe was competing against Tesla and it’s price point.

cGX car point you would do much better by being less pedantically showing off you education and saying what you mean in simple clear language.  You have much to offer but your communication skills need “work “.

--

Assume most people are stupid and hope they surprise you.

nberry:

FWIW. There are three things certain in this world. Death, taxes and RT denigrating Ring times that beat their beloved Porsche. Do you realize that for a price of a Taycan, I can buy all the models in the Tesla lineup?

https://electrek.co/2019/09/17/tesla-plaid-model-s-crushes-porsche-taycan-nurburgring-time/

Stupid question, Nick: Why did you buy a Porsche? You could have bought all Toyote models in their line-up for the same money... 🧐🤨😂

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

JoeRockhead:

"Our inside source describes the cars as being "stripped to the gunwales," the interiors fully gutted of anything apart from the necessary seats, harnesses, and driver controls—hence the dark-tinted windows, it seems"

Those saying this is not a future production spec, you are wrong, it´s the new minimalist Tesla interior 2.0 

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

There has been talk about active aero for the coming Model S. Rear active spoiler and some flaps in the front. What we see now on the ring is just a modified shell and the updated car will have some further improvements. Pretty cool if they will improve the production car even further compared with the prototype running around right now if this is just the start...

And the sport car manufacturers better get their act together quickly, because the Roadster will probably just up the bar in a year or two.

This is pretty brilliant and can be used in this context 

Anyway, Tesla have done their NBR test some days ago.

They haven't officially announced any times yet. Just some vague remarks and a promise of a new faster production version in Oct/Nov 2020.

• This could mean that they haven't achieved a good laptime, or most probably
• The adverse publicity relating to the "crooked spec" of their test car has made any achieved  time improvement redundant

Nevertheless, all this fuss is good for the keen drivers in that EV manufacturers have started paying attention to speed and road manners besides economy and gadgets.

"Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

It will be simple to settle this argument with an independent test by the established benchmark...

Link:  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport_auto_(Germany)#Supertest_Nordschleife

...looking forward to the Sport Auto supertest of a Tesla Model S vs Porsche Taycan on the Nurburgring! 

lukestern:

There has been talk about active aero for the coming Model S. Rear active spoiler and some flaps in the front. What we see now on the ring is just a modified shell and the updated car will have some further improvements. Pretty cool if they will improve the production car even further compared with the prototype running around right now if this is just the start...

 

Are you serious? The production car will not have much in common with this prototype. They just built it to fool customers that do not understand  The customer will get something very different. This is just a press event.

reginos:

Anyway, Tesla have done their NBR test some days ago.

They haven't officially announced any times yet. Just some vague remarks and a promise of a new faster production version in Oct/Nov 2020.

• This could mean that they haven't achieved a good laptime, or most probably
• The adverse publicity relating to the "crooked spec" of their test car has made any achieved  time improvement redundant

 

Nevertheless, all this fuss is good for the keen drivers in that EV manufacturers have started paying attention to speed and road manners besides economy and gadgets.

Any reports about major fires at NbR testing sessions 

I love Porsche a lot and have always been a fan of their cars but you have to give it to Tesla, they are doing a good job. It's rare for a newly established car company to take on the likes of Porsche. 

If Telsa beat the Taycan time (stripped out or not, Other manufacturers do the same) is a remarkable achievement, you can bash Tesla as much as you like but the car still sells and customers are very happy with their cars. Pricewise, the Taycan is just too expensive for what its worth and this has now becoming a trend by Porsche to jack up the price phenomenally on all new models. i spec a Taycan turbo S and it came to £170,000....for an EV, definitely not 

Italo:

 

If Telsa beat the Taycan time (stripped out or not, Other manufacturers do the same) is a remarkable achievement, you can bash Tesla as much as you like but the car still sells and customers are very happy with their cars. Pricewise, the Taycan is just too expensive for what its worth and this has now becoming a trend by Porsche to jack up the price phenomenally on all new models. i spec a Taycan turbo S and it came to £170,000....for an EV, definitely not 

While I see your point I have to disagree: if you use a prototype on slick-like tires, with a race suspension, stripped out, custom made (tuned) motors it is no achievement at all to get to the lap time speculated about above. The tires and the suspension alone make up for 20s if not more. If you then add 200 or more hp (using custom made motors not available to customers) you might shave off another 10s or so. No magic - just cheap tricks  

MKSGR:

lukestern:

There has been talk about active aero for the coming Model S. Rear active spoiler and some flaps in the front. What we see now on the ring is just a modified shell and the updated car will have some further improvements. Pretty cool if they will improve the production car even further compared with the prototype running around right now if this is just the start...

 

Are you serious? The production car will not have much in common with this prototype. They just built it to fool customers that do not understand  The customer will get something very different. This is just a press event.

Exactly my point and Porsche is...clueless. 

The year 2019 and social media work differently, fake news have become a reality and nobody can actually tell the truth from lies because everything seems to be intertwined and very complex. Good thing for headlines (I said it before), because nowadays this is all that counts. Headlines. Clickbait. Nothing else. Porsche needs to learn this the hard way it appears.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

I don't know about fake news, but in the case of the alleged Tesla laptimes all the (English language) sites I've seen are very open about the fact that Tesla are using modified cars with features which are not available to customers as yet.

Musk himself promised S models with these go-faster modifications to be available in Sep/Oct 2020 admitting that the NBR cars are not production and showroom ready..

No one can be fooled unless this person wants to.

--

"Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

MKSGR:

lukestern:

There has been talk about active aero for the coming Model S. Rear active spoiler and some flaps in the front. What we see now on the ring is just a modified shell and the updated car will have some further improvements. Pretty cool if they will improve the production car even further compared with the prototype running around right now if this is just the start...

 

Are you serious? The production car will not have much in common with this prototype. They just built it to fool customers that do not understand  The customer will get something very different. This is just a press event.

Please make a fact based example where Tesla fool their customers and is not transparent about what they are doing?

Media is making up a lot of fuzz about this, but the fuzz actually doesn't come from either Musk or officially from Tesla. Musk just posted that there will be Model S present att the ring and then followed that up with some more details of the car when people have asked.

Can you point out anything where Tesla or Musk even state that they will perform a record attempt? No, you can't because they haven't even said it. It's just different media interpretations...

Like I have mentioned in earlier posts.. what we see now is just Tesla driving around with a prototype car on the ring just like all other manufacturers does and like Porsche did with the Taycan over the last year. Difference is that anything Tesla get's viral independent if it is positive or negative. Tesla is the first new manufacturer in decades that actually has a decent shot at beating the companies that has been present on the ring for decades.

reginos:

I don't know about fake news, but in the case of the alleged Tesla laptimes all the (English language) sites I've seen are very open about the fact that Tesla are using modified cars with features which are not available to customers as yet.

Musk himself promised S models with these go-faster modifications to be available in Sep/Oct 2020 admitting that the NBR cars are not production and showroom ready..

No one can be fooled unless this person wants to.

--

 

"Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

 

reginos:

I don't know about fake news, but in the case of the alleged Tesla laptimes all the (English language) sites I've seen are very open about the fact that Tesla are using modified cars with features which are not available to customers as yet.

Musk himself promised S models with these go-faster modifications to be available in Sep/Oct 2020 admitting that the NBR cars are not production and showroom ready..

No one can be fooled unless this person wants to.

--

 

"Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

 

I am a sucker for social media and it is kind of a hobby of mine to check and counter-check news articles from various sources. What can happen when news outlets mess up shows the Trump's Greenland story. I bet many of you guys still believe he really wanted to buy Greenland.  I have other (non-political) examples, where so called "influencers" are trying to influence...which basically means that they are bending the truth to their advantage and to the advantage of the products they advertise. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

RC:

reginos:

I don't know about fake news, but in the case of the alleged Tesla laptimes all the (English language) sites I've seen are very open about the fact that Tesla are using modified cars with features which are not available to customers as yet.

Musk himself promised S models with these go-faster modifications to be available in Sep/Oct 2020 admitting that the NBR cars are not production and showroom ready..

No one can be fooled unless this person wants to.

--

 

"Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

 

I am a sucker for social media and it is kind of a hobby of mine to check and counter-check news articles from various sources. What can happen when news outlets mess up shows the Trump's Greenland story. I bet many of you guys still believe he really wanted to buy Greenland.  I have other (non-political) examples, where so called "influencers" are trying to influence...which basically means that they are bending the truth to their advantage and to the advantage of the products they advertise. 

What you mention above occurs and we have cases of spreading fake news. Even Governments do it.

But I don't see this happening in the case of the Porsche vs Tesla Nordschleife contest.

People who know Nurburgring and can appreciate a few seconds difference will look beyond any misleading headlines. For the rest the whole thing will be irrelevant to their choice of vehicle.

"Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

RC:

MKSGR:

lukestern:

There has been talk about active aero for the coming Model S. Rear active spoiler and some flaps in the front. What we see now on the ring is just a modified shell and the updated car will have some further improvements. Pretty cool if they will improve the production car even further compared with the prototype running around right now if this is just the start...

 

Are you serious? The production car will not have much in common with this prototype. They just built it to fool customers that do not understand  The customer will get something very different. This is just a press event.

Exactly my point and Porsche is...clueless. 

The year 2019 and social media work differently, fake news have become a reality and nobody can actually tell the truth from lies because everything seems to be intertwined and very complex. Good thing for headlines (I said it before), because nowadays this is all that counts. Headlines. Clickbait. Nothing else. Porsche needs to learn this the hard way it appears.

--

 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

 

I would just buy (or ask somebody I can trust to do it) a regular Tesla S100D and then document what happens if you drive it on the NBR. The lap time will not be the worst discovery I bet. The car will be a total failure. I would then put the documentation into social media and Tesla will be the fool of the month 

RC:

The year 2019 and social media work differently, fake news have become a reality and nobody can actually tell the truth from lies because everything seems to be intertwined and very complex. Good thing for headlines (I said it before), because nowadays this is all that counts. Headlines. Clickbait. Nothing else. Porsche needs to learn this the hard way it appears.

I'm afraid you are correct, that is how it is unfortunately, people don't like to read, headlines are what counts and in regards to Tesla sobre dont want to read further if they are happy with the headline and make all sorts of excuses. I mean, does anyone truly really believe that the old american Model S platform is sportier than the new one from Pirsche no less, and at their backyard of the NBR on top of it? Flat-earthers anyone? 

A real Model S may not be faster than the Taycan but that doesn't matter, it doesn't need to be faster, as long as the headline's click bait as well as all the circle jerk Tesla biased EV sites say it is, that is all what counts in the public opinion. 

Tesla puts together a stripped out tuned track mule with semi slicks to beat a regular production sport sedan with street tires, and the headlines just say the Model S beat the Taycan. Heck there isn't even a real lap time and already all the headlines talk about the seconds difference. Tesla 1, Porsche 0 in fake news social media...

The problem with Porsche fighting back at this game is that they would be stoop down to their level, not sure they are going to, Porsche doesn't need to, they are making buckets of money, the most profitable company in the business, Tesla on the other hand is a circus, starting with their CEO.

--

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

lukestern:

MKSGR:

lukestern:

There has been talk about active aero for the coming Model S. Rear active spoiler and some flaps in the front. What we see now on the ring is just a modified shell and the updated car will have some further improvements. Pretty cool if they will improve the production car even further compared with the prototype running around right now if this is just the start...

 

Are you serious? The production car will not have much in common with this prototype. They just built it to fool customers that do not understand  The customer will get something very different. This is just a press event.

Please make a fact based example where Tesla fool their customers and is not transparent about what they are doing?

 

There are more examples than can be listed on this web page... For example, the launch dates of Model Y or the Roadster (thinking of the downpayment they asked for in this context), the "millions of self driving taxis 2020" etc. etc. If you want to be on the safe side just assume that everything they say is a lie...

MKSGR:

lukestern:

MKSGR:

lukestern:

There has been talk about active aero for the coming Model S. Rear active spoiler and some flaps in the front. What we see now on the ring is just a modified shell and the updated car will have some further improvements. Pretty cool if they will improve the production car even further compared with the prototype running around right now if this is just the start...

 

Are you serious? The production car will not have much in common with this prototype. They just built it to fool customers that do not understand  The customer will get something very different. This is just a press event.

Please make a fact based example where Tesla fool their customers and is not transparent about what they are doing?

 

There are more examples than can be listed on this web page... For example, the launch dates of Model Y or the Roadster (thinking of the downpayment they asked for in this context), the "millions of self driving taxis 2020" etc. etc. If you want to be on the safe side just assume that everything they say is a lie...

Now we were talking about Tesla on the ring, nothing else. And suddenly you bring out something completely different.

But thanks for making it very clear that you didn't find any facts to back up your own statement 

Carlos from Spain:

RC:

The year 2019 and social media work differently, fake news have become a reality and nobody can actually tell the truth from lies because everything seems to be intertwined and very complex. Good thing for headlines (I said it before), because nowadays this is all that counts. Headlines. Clickbait. Nothing else. Porsche needs to learn this the hard way it appears.

I'm afraid you are correct, that is how it is unfortunately, people don't like to read, headlines are what counts and in regards to Tesla sobre dont want to read further if they are happy with the headline and make all sorts of excuses. I mean, does anyone truly really believe that the old american Model S platform is sportier than the new one from Pirsche no less, and at their backyard of the NBR on top of it? Flat-earthers anyone? 

Even more embarrassing if they will be beaten up by the new kid on the block then?

A real Model S may not be faster than the Taycan but that doesn't matter, it doesn't need to be faster, as long as the headline's click bait as well as all the circle jerk Tesla biased EV sites say it is, that is all what counts in the public opinion. 

A real Model S? You mean an old Model S that has been in production since 2013 compared with something from Porsche that you (hopefully) can get early next year that cost twice as much? A more fair comparison is of course a Taycan against next gen Model S (if you even should make the comparison at all)

Tesla puts together a stripped out tuned track mule with semi slicks to beat a regular production sport sedan with street tires, and the headlines just say the Model S beat the Taycan. Heck there isn't even a real lap time and already all the headlines talk about the seconds difference. Tesla 1, Porsche 0 in fake news social media...

Oh, here comes the classic Carlos exaggerations that we have seen for a while now.
We'll see how it plays out. I'm afraid that you won't be happy with the results and how things develop 

The problem with Porsche fighting back at this game is that they would be stoop down to their level, not sure they are going to, Porsche doesn't need to, they are making buckets of money, the most profitable company in the business, Tesla on the other hand is a circus, starting with their CEO.

You mean the level that Porsche on purpose went down to a initiated themselves? Porsche pulled off a series of Taycan promotions on things that Tesla has gotten heat. Repeatability and not be able to complete a full lap around NBR. Now Tesla enters the scene and try to respond it is by some reason moving to a lower level. Why?

Tesla puts together a stripped out tuned track mule with semi slicks to beat a regular production sport sedan with street tires, and the headlines just say the Model S beat the Taycan. Heck there isn't even a real lap time and already all the headlines talk about the seconds difference. Tesla 1, Porsche 0 in fake news social media...

Oh, here comes the classic Carlos exaggerations that we have seen for a while now.

 Actually, Carlos has a good point here because this is how it is going to be...very likely.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

RC:

Tesla puts together a stripped out tuned track mule with semi slicks to beat a regular production sport sedan with street tires, and the headlines just say the Model S beat the Taycan. Heck there isn't even a real lap time and already all the headlines talk about the seconds difference. Tesla 1, Porsche 0 in fake news social media...

Oh, here comes the classic Carlos exaggerations that we have seen for a while now.

 Actually, Carlos has a good point here because this is how it is going to be...very likely.

And who knows, Tesla will maybe launch an even faster car in a year than the production mule they play around with right now...

It's also funny to read the comments about "fake news". If anything there is A LOT of fake news concerning Teslas. When it is about negative stuff about Tesla some people in here here seem to enjoy it a lot, but now when the internet phenomenon strike from the opposite direction, it suddenly becomes fake news.

Fake news about Tesla? Could you be more specific?

The only thing negative I say about Tesla is simply that they sound like crap and deliver zero emotional involvement (other than the gadget feel I get when I use a new smartphone or gadget but this is not exactly what I am looking for in a car ). I say the same thing about the Taycan, with the exception that the Taycan looks much better (outside/inside) and probably offers a better (build) quality. Performance? I said from the start that Porsche should take this seriously but they just don't get it, probably because they never got it with other (combustion engine) cars in the first place. Why do you think am I driving a Lamborghini now? 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)