Crown

You are magnificent at rationalizing your decisions. Bravo.  I doubt anyone here sleeps as well at night as you do. 

  Statements like “vertical integration seems nice ...”

Or “With that metric gone” - on to fit and finish.  Of course you hit on what every teenage boy dreams of when thinking of cars. 
 

You have to admit you lay it on thick. You should do Porsche commercials or comedy routines for EV owners. 

By the same analogy, why do some individuals spend thousands of dollars on a fine watch when a $50 Casio tells time just as well?

CGX car nut:

By the same analogy, why do some individuals spend thousands of dollars on a fine watch when a $50 Casio tells time just as well?

EV is like from the casio up to iwatch.

Fine 12 cylinder NA is like a Patek., Chiron is like RM and you have everything in between.

So EV can't be proposed or approached on the same way as the ICE cars.

GT Lover, Porsche fan

991.2 GT3 manual

Cayenne GTS 2014

Non hybrid ICEs are probably peaking now (812, Lamborghini V12 and V10, and all the V8 TTS) but EVs are in their earliest phase of evolution... Hard to commit to a long term relationship or even some leases, but not ready to move downmarket to avoid costs either... awkward situation...

the-missile:

CGX car nut:

By the same analogy, why do some individuals spend thousands of dollars on a fine watch when a $50 Casio tells time just as well?

EV is like from the casio up to iwatch.

Fine 12 cylinder NA is like a Patek., Chiron is like RM and you have everything in between.

So EV can't be proposed or approached on the same way as the ICE cars.

You seem to be forgetting the rest of the vehicle beyond the prime mover element, and even then there are some differences.  Whilst Tesla focuses on the headline elements of acceleration and absolute range, others have designs the affect and enhance usability and repeatability.   This is why Porsche uses a hair bobbin winding design and Audi a water cooled rotor design. Then there’s the differences in vehicle fabrication and execution.  The others just do it better than Tesla.  

you can apply the best tech and design you wish for electronic watches, at the end of the day it is just the bottom of desirable watches. I think the same is applied to EV cars. No matter what super high tech development you put, the buying group just don't care that much as Tesla is still leading the sales and it is far from being the most advanced.

it is like the G-Shock compared to I-watch. I-watch is better and nicer but G-shock is selling way way more.

GT Lover, Porsche fan

991.2 GT3 manual

Cayenne GTS 2014

RC:

If Porsche wants to sell their EVs, they need to come up with something clever. You cannot compare sports cars to regular cars (Tesla S, Taycan, e-tron, etc.)

Porsche needs to increase the range of its vehicles significantly, and invest heavily in the Ionity charging network. These are the areas it is way behind Tesla. I say that as a matter of fact rather than getting in to the Tesla vs Porsche debate which I have deliberately stayed out of!

crayphile:

RC:

If Porsche wants to sell their EVs, they need to come up with something clever. You cannot compare sports cars to regular cars (Tesla S, Taycan, e-tron, etc.)

Porsche needs to increase the range of its vehicles significantly, and invest heavily in the Ionity charging network. These are the areas it is way behind Tesla. I say that as a matter of fact rather than getting in to the Tesla vs Porsche debate which I have deliberately stayed out of!

That too.  

My Taycan Turbo S test drive was an eye opener. I ended up in a dinosaur but a dinosaur with at least double the range and only five minutes fuel up time.  

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk (2019 EU)

RC:

crayphile:

RC:

If Porsche wants to sell their EVs, they need to come up with something clever. You cannot compare sports cars to regular cars (Tesla S, Taycan, e-tron, etc.)

Porsche needs to increase the range of its vehicles significantly, and invest heavily in the Ionity charging network. These are the areas it is way behind Tesla. I say that as a matter of fact rather than getting in to the Tesla vs Porsche debate which I have deliberately stayed out of!

That too.  

My Taycan Turbo S test drive was an eye opener. I ended up in a dinosaur but a dinosaur with at least double the range and only five minutes fuel up time.  

Not just you.

My Taycan and the Panamera turbo S is 'comparable' in the Porsche range.

Whatever the Taycan can do range wise, the Panamera turbo S can do double. As a hybrid it also gets every benefits of the Taycan gets from the government. If I don't go more than 30-ish km a trip, the Panamera can be driven exactly like the Taycan, as a pure EV. Not to mentioned it's roomier passenger wise and cargo wise.

the-missile:

CGX car nut:

By the same analogy, why do some individuals spend thousands of dollars on a fine watch when a $50 Casio tells time just as well?

EV is like from the casio up to iwatch.

Fine 12 cylinder NA is like a Patek., Chiron is like RM and you have everything in between.

So EV can't be proposed or approached on the same way as the ICE cars.

And I have the Hermes Edition Apple Watch.............

Actually also the Tag Heuer Connect Watch too.

the-missile:

you can apply the best tech and design you wish for electronic watches, at the end of the day it is just the bottom of desirable watches. I think the same is applied to EV cars. No matter what super high tech development you put, the buying group just don't care that much as Tesla is still leading the sales and it is far from being the most advanced.

it is like the G-Shock compared to I-watch. I-watch is better and nicer but G-shock is selling way way more.

 

You are missing a very large differentiator of the auto industry from the watch industry.  The automobile industry is controlled by regulation versus being exclusively market driven unlike watches. Your unelected bureaucrats in Brussels have determined that you will only purchase EVs in the near future and no amount of carping will change that decision.  

Whoopsy:

RC:

crayphile:

RC:

If Porsche wants to sell their EVs, they need to come up with something clever. You cannot compare sports cars to regular cars (Tesla S, Taycan, e-tron, etc.)

Porsche needs to increase the range of its vehicles significantly, and invest heavily in the Ionity charging network. These are the areas it is way behind Tesla. I say that as a matter of fact rather than getting in to the Tesla vs Porsche debate which I have deliberately stayed out of!

That too.  

My Taycan Turbo S test drive was an eye opener. I ended up in a dinosaur but a dinosaur with at least double the range and only five minutes fuel up time.  

 

Not just you.

My Taycan and the Panamera turbo S is 'comparable' in the Porsche range.

Whatever the Taycan can do range wise, the Panamera turbo S can do double. As a hybrid it also gets every benefits of the Taycan gets from the government. If I don't go more than 30-ish km a trip, the Panamera can be driven exactly like the Taycan, as a pure EV. Not to mentioned it's roomier passenger wise and cargo wise.

 

The advantages of energy and power densities of carbon-based liquid fuels when compared with battery technologies is something conveniently neglected by bureaucrat and EV pundit.  

CGX car nut:

The automobile industry is controlled by regulation versus being exclusively market driven unlike watches. Your unelected bureaucrats in Brussels have determined that you will only purchase EVs in the near future and no amount of carping will change that decision.  

Ah, these useless technocrats. Yes, they decide based on the pressure from each lobby. EV is more a response from cheating manufacturers, I guess. I can’t see a powerful EV lobby anywhere 

GT Lover, Porsche fan

991.2 GT3 manual

Cayenne GTS 2014

the-missile:

CGX car nut:

The automobile industry is controlled by regulation versus being exclusively market driven unlike watches. Your unelected bureaucrats in Brussels have determined that you will only purchase EVs in the near future and no amount of carping will change that decision.  

Ah, these useless technocrats. Yes, they decide based on the pressure from each lobby. EV is more a response from cheating manufacturers, I guess. I can’t see a powerful EV lobby anywhere 

You might want to get out more often.

I know the power of the green energy with these horrendous wind turbines but did not see the EV lobby. The EU commission always put VW diesel gate into the equation to shift fake efficient Diesel engines to electric motors. Happy to read some documentation if you have different info. 

GT Lover, Porsche fan

991.2 GT3 manual

Cayenne GTS 2014

Now I am beginning to worry about the future regulations on watches. "Exclusively market driven" sounds a lot like something that cannot be left alone.

CGX car nut:

Whoopsy:

RC:

crayphile:

RC:

If Porsche wants to sell their EVs, they need to come up with something clever. You cannot compare sports cars to regular cars (Tesla S, Taycan, e-tron, etc.)

Porsche needs to increase the range of its vehicles significantly, and invest heavily in the Ionity charging network. These are the areas it is way behind Tesla. I say that as a matter of fact rather than getting in to the Tesla vs Porsche debate which I have deliberately stayed out of!

That too.  

My Taycan Turbo S test drive was an eye opener. I ended up in a dinosaur but a dinosaur with at least double the range and only five minutes fuel up time.  

 

Not just you.

My Taycan and the Panamera turbo S is 'comparable' in the Porsche range.

Whatever the Taycan can do range wise, the Panamera turbo S can do double. As a hybrid it also gets every benefits of the Taycan gets from the government. If I don't go more than 30-ish km a trip, the Panamera can be driven exactly like the Taycan, as a pure EV. Not to mentioned it's roomier passenger wise and cargo wise.

 

The advantages of energy and power densities of carbon-based liquid fuels when compared with battery technologies is something conveniently neglected by bureaucrat and EV pundit.  And that does not count oil changes and maintenance.  We are not even talking safety and self driving plus very little depreciation.

 

 

While your logic that fit and finish is all important you may find that not only does the vast majority value their savings but they also see nothing wrong with a Tesla interior or build quality.  I certainly have found zero build or quality issues and I love the fuss free interior more each day to the point where all the buttons and vents in other cars look like foolish trinkets  

We are at a point where an EV can easily hit 400 miles and recharge in around 20 minutes. Here in the US that is a 20 minute break every 5 or 6 hours on those days when you drive that many miles. Do I want to spend 10x on fuel all year long and drive around to gas stations all year long in order to save a few minutes of charge time on the odd chance I need to go on a long road trip once or twice per year?  
Btw - for a road trip, regardless of length, I can’t imagine a better way to go than a Tesla driving down the highway doing most of the work. 

Easily hitting a 400 miles range and fully charging in 20 minutes? On what planet?  

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk (2019 EU)

RC:

Easily hitting a 400 miles range and fully charging in 20 minutes? On what planet?  

ModelS currently gets that on the highway at 70 mph. Level 3 superchargers @250 amps peak at 1000 miles per hour.  So this would be on a planet in our solar system. Plus or minus 10 minutes or 30 miles. 
The point is that you are spending a ton of extra money and bypassing lots of safety and convenience in exchange for a few minutes not fueling. Meanwhile you don’t count all the time you constantly go for a drive to get gas.  Having lived with an EV and being a fan of long road trips I would take the Tesla if the charge time was double.  
You may have a point when it comes to cost of power in Europe making the Tesla less attractive but in my experience recharging vs refueling is much faster and cheaper overall. 

OK, maybe I should rephrase my reply to your initial post:

How many miles do you get and how long does your charging (full charge) take?  

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk (2019 EU)

RC:

OK, maybe I should rephrase my reply to your initial post:

How many miles do you get and how long does your charging (full charge) take?  

On my long road trips I usually go 250 miles and then I charge for 20 minutes just short of 90% as this is when the charge slows down.  So far I have only encountered 150kw chargers and not the 250kw hence the 20 minutes for the fewer miles.  With a 250kw charge times would be closer to 15 minutes. 
The vast majority of the time I just plug in at home. 

Leawood911:

ModelS currently gets that on the highway at 70 mph. Level 3 superchargers @250 amps peak at 1000 miles per hour.  So this would be on a planet in our solar system. Plus or minus 10 minutes or 30 miles. 
The point is that you are spending a ton of extra money and bypassing lots of safety and convenience in exchange for a few minutes not fueling. Meanwhile you don’t count all the time you constantly go for a drive to get gas.  Having lived with an EV and being a fan of long road trips I would take the Tesla if the charge time was double.  
You may have a point when it comes to cost of power in Europe making the Tesla less attractive but in my experience recharging vs refueling is much faster and cheaper overall. 

I have only one road trip of experience so far.  Low air temperatures, extra drag from active precipitation and some drag-coefficient corruption on the way home (crusty snow partial covering on some body panels) reduced the range by 15-20%.  The only Tesla Level-3 charger I used was a 150 kW version.  The charging rate peaked at 135 kW (according to the dash display) and trailed off to 50ish kW as the battery "topped off".  It took 30 minutes each of the two times we used it (once going, once returning).  Dry, Summer weather would eliminate one of the stops.

So, ...  we "wasted" 20-25 minutes two different times on our road trip.  It turned a 5.5 hour round trip time into a 6.3 hour commute.   In the grand scale of things, not too bad.

Depending on how one values "wasted" time, an extra several hours divided among several yearly long-distance trips seems a small price to pay for never visiting petrol stations the entire rest of the year (charge overnight in my own garage).  With the density of existing Tesla Level-3 chargers, it's a no-brainer for me.  The density of CCS/J1772 Level-3 chargers (Electrify America, et al) is not satisfactory at the moment and using a Taycan for the same trips is not attractive at all.

EVs are already the best city/commuter solution.  Some day, they'll be very attractive all around.

--

Mike

918 Spyder + Taycan Turbo + Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S P100D AP2 + BMWs (Z8 + 3.0 CSi) + Bentley Arnage T

Let me throw in my experience with the Model 3 here. 250 miles/400 km only in the summer, driven very slowly (85 mph already too fast) and no rain! Plus the car must be at 100% SOC when starting. A 20 minutes charge on an ionity charger maybe gets you from 20% to 80%. Driving a 250 miles leg on a 20 minute charge is impossible. I do admit there are no V3 superchargers here but the general charge curve doesn't change.

The Model 3 has a high peak charge performance but drops off very fast. At 65% SOC you're already down to 100kw. 85% less than 50kw. In comparison Audi e-tron at 65% still 150kw (until almost 80% SOC). @85% still just below 100kw (Fastned has very interesting charging diagrams for various models). So the peak charging performance on a Tesla doesn't really tell you much ... Elon is a marketing genius.

Sorry for the technical post ...

Back to the Taycan topic. I was debating a Taycan Turbo to replace the Model 3. But with the arrival of Model S Plaid+ I just cannot get myself to pay so much for the Taycan. Even though it's still the much nicer car with much nicer extras. But the performance and range gap to the Model S is getting ridiculous for the price.

Cheers,
Wolfgang

Good informative posts, thanks guys....

I am quite impressed with the Taycan Turbo, and seriously considered it when my old lease ran out last summer.  I personally think the extra dollars for a refined, luxurious, wonderful handling car is worth it over competitors.  But my real obstacle was that I do not need four seats (two of which are not really usable for adults), so I settled on a 9924S, which for now is terrifically satisfying and far more "personal".  

Recommended resting times when driving a car on long distances  is 15 to 20 minutes every 2 hours . That solves the charging time ' vaste ' problem .

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 

Gnil:

Recommended resting times when driving a car on long distances  is 15 to 20 minutes every 2 hours . That solves the charging time ' vaste ' problem .

Do you realize, pre-pandemic, it often took longer than 2 hours to get from the downtown area to the airport in most major U.S. metropolitan areas?  Using your heuristics, people would need to take rest stops driving to work. 

CGX car nut:

Gnil:

Recommended resting times when driving a car on long distances  is 15 to 20 minutes every 2 hours . That solves the charging time ' vaste ' problem .

Do you realize, pre-pandemic, it often took longer than 2 hours to get from the downtown area to the airport in most major U.S. metropolitan areas?  Using your heuristics, people would need to take rest stops driving to work. 

People can choose not to follow recommended resting times. They increase the probability of having an accidents. 

 Can't be good for your sanity having to sit in 4h congested traffic every day for work. You end up probably frustrated ,angry, tired. Not good..... 

On the matter, we were talking about long day drives/road trips  . Not commutes. 

--

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 

Gnil:

CGX car nut:

Gnil:

Recommended resting times when driving a car on long distances  is 15 to 20 minutes every 2 hours . That solves the charging time ' vaste ' problem .

Do you realize, pre-pandemic, it often took longer than 2 hours to get from the downtown area to the airport in most major U.S. metropolitan areas?  Using your heuristics, people would need to take rest stops driving to work. 

People can choose not to follow recommended resting times. They increase the probability of having an accidents. 

 Can't be good for your sanity having to sit in 4h congested traffic every day for work. You end up probably frustrated ,angry, tired. Not good..... 

On the matter, we were talking about long day drives/road trips  . Not commutes. 

--

 

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 

 

With the addition of autopilot ( not self driving) keeping the speed, watching for obstacles and keeping in the lane the drive is much less tiring allowing for maybe an extra hour or so between stops. 

Gnil:

CGX car nut:

Gnil:

Recommended resting times when driving a car on long distances  is 15 to 20 minutes every 2 hours . That solves the charging time ' vaste ' problem .

Do you realize, pre-pandemic, it often took longer than 2 hours to get from the downtown area to the airport in most major U.S. metropolitan areas?  Using your heuristics, people would need to take rest stops driving to work. 

People can choose not to follow recommended resting times. They increase the probability of having an accidents. 

 Can't be good for your sanity having to sit in 4h congested traffic every day for work. You end up probably frustrated ,angry, tired. Not good..... 

On the matter, we were talking about long day drives/road trips  . Not commutes. 

--

 

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 

 

Moving goal posts; got it. 

WoP:

Let me throw in my experience with the Model 3 here. 250 miles/400 km only in the summer, driven very slowly (85 mph already too fast) and no rain! Plus the car must be at 100% SOC when starting. A 20 minutes charge on an ionity charger maybe gets you from 20% to 80%. Driving a 250 miles leg on a 20 minute charge is impossible. I do admit there are no V3 superchargers here but the general charge curve doesn't change.

The Model 3 has a high peak charge performance but drops off very fast. At 65% SOC you're already down to 100kw. 85% less than 50kw. In comparison Audi e-tron at 65% still 150kw (until almost 80% SOC). @85% still just below 100kw (Fastned has very interesting charging diagrams for various models). So the peak charging performance on a Tesla doesn't really tell you much ... Elon is a marketing genius.

Sorry for the technical post ...

Back to the Taycan topic. I was debating a Taycan Turbo to replace the Model 3. But with the arrival of Model S Plaid+ I just cannot get myself to pay so much for the Taycan. Even though it's still the much nicer car with much nicer extras. But the performance and range gap to the Model S is getting ridiculous for the price.

Cheers,
Wolfgang

Hi Wolfgang. I miss Austria and their autobahn. But it is speed limited like everywhere other than Germany. How much longer will Germany we unlimited?  Here my range was predicated at max of 70mph which is vastly more efficient than 85 mph (not counting your passes at 100 mph). So I agree, range for you is not the same as I would expect. If I go 85 I might get up to 200 miles to stay in the charging sweet spot. In each case I would stop charging at 85 - 90% as you point out charging times are not constantly high and vary a lot. From 15% to 75% with a preconditioned battery on a 250kw charger the wait will be 15-20 minutes depending on outside temps.  
We are just a couple years and one tech generation away from this being no contest.  Stock market has moved on it. Govt regulation really makes no difference as it is more logical. They will soon actually reverse in terms of racing to find ways to tax EVs. No need to keep punishing the dying oil industry (Biden is pushing up the price of oil - bless his heart, I’m certain is does not do this on purpose).