Crown

Cool Mike!  Congratulations. 
@lakehouse. New Valentine worked great. Best one yet. 

RC:

Nobody can beat EV performance, in a couple of years, we are going to see performance figures in regular cars which would fit a current super sportscar. I won't even start with those ultra hyper EV cars which will be available in a couple of years, I do not think that current sports cars will have even the slightest chance to beat them, especially in straight line performance.

Let's face it: EVs are probably the future in any possible car (and maybe even truck/bus) category but when it comes to emotional driving fun, our current ICE cars will be a completely different story here.

I just wonder what sense an ultra hyper EV sports car makes with 2000 hp, doing 0-200 kph (124 mph) in 5 seconds, when almost every country on this planet has a lower speed limit. Germany will follow, it is just a matter of time.

So in the end, our ICE fun cars will be the one people want...if they have the money to pay for gas.  

Since electric motors are hyper inefficient at higher speed, the lowered speed limit will suite the performance characteristics of a EV perfectly. EVs will simply get to the speed limit quicker. 

In a way, electric motors are like diesel engine cars. Great torque down low, gets the car going quicker. That's what benefit normal people in their normal driving.

Whoopsy:

 

Since electric motors are hyper inefficient at higher speed, the lowered speed limit will suite the performance characteristics of a EV perfectly. EVs will simply get to the speed limit quicker. 

In a way, electric motors are like diesel engine cars. Great torque down low, gets the car going quicker. That's what benefit normal people in their normal driving.

Not so fast, Nick.

Electric motors can be VERY efficient at high RPM.

Mike

918 Spyder + Taycan Turbo + Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S P100D AP2 + BMWs (Z8 + 3.0 CSi) + Bentley Arnage T

Leawood or anyone, PLEASE don’t view the following questions as an opinion or a comment on EV’s versus ICE cars. I honestly want to know.  

1. My wife and I just spent a delightful week in Vermont.  She has been seriously considering a Model 3, but raised questions about charging stations and times. She commented that she would not want to have to worry about where to get her car charged or having to wait and waste time on vacation. I told her about the app which identifies nearby charging stations, but I can tell she wasn’t particularly convinced. Any advice?

2. My son and I have been spending the last three weekends at the track. Most of the cars of course were ICE cars, but there were one or two Model 3 competitions. One owner commented that his car decreases significantly after about 15 minutes of fast driving on the track. Also the Model 3s seemed to be constantly plugged into the electrical stations at the track. I for one would like to see Tesla move more into the racing scene, but I wonder if you have any comments about that, or about the charging issues under fast track driving?

Thanks!

RC:

Nobody can beat EV performance, in a couple of years, we are going to see performance figures in regular cars which would fit a current super sportscar. I won't even start with those ultra hyper EV cars which will be available in a couple of years, I do not think that current sports cars will have even the slightest chance to beat them, especially in straight line performance.

Let's face it: EVs are probably the future in any possible car (and maybe even truck/bus) category but when it comes to emotional driving fun, our current ICE cars will be a completely different story here.

I just wonder what sense an ultra hyper EV sports car makes with 2000 hp, doing 0-200 kph (124 mph) in 5 seconds, when almost every country on this planet has a lower speed limit. Germany will follow, it is just a matter of time.

So in the end, our ICE fun cars will be the one people want...if they have the money to pay for gas.  

I totally disagree. EV performance to date is far below the ICE level.

Leawood911:

MKSGR:

Leawood911:

nberry:

Mike, government can be good especially when it involves automobile regulation. There are a number of regulations that have saved hundreds of thousand of lives. You need to trust government more. 

You need to accept that positive change comes from the free market not from government regulations. Who is to say safety would not be improved upon more frequently with less regulations?  Why is it not better to have people drive EVs because they are fun, save,  lean and efficient rather than due to government regulations?  You are almost arguing that these regulations don’t make sense but we need to trust big government. In this case I actually think that the California mandate will have zero impact by then. It’s all good. 
 

Tell me why I want a 10 cent on the dollar outfit helping me in any way?  No thanks. The smaller the size of government the larger my freedoms. I’m okay with that. I kinda trust me more than government. Does that help?

The free market alone would not give EV a single chance. All EV sales today are driven by subsidies. Direct subsidies to buyers. And subsidies to Tesla for selling "emission rights". 

Great post in terms of its ability to illustrate how far off one can be.  I bet you could amuse the VW executives with it and maybe they would get one decent nights sleep out of it. 
I think the stock market is pretty much at odds with every one of these points. Tesla is now sold without any subsidies and zero advertising. They can’t make them fast enough to advertise.  I am a hardcore 911 driver.  For my entire life!  I have very quickly discovered that it is faster, more fun, safer, cheaper buy a ton and - since I love to drive - is opening up new driving adventures for me each day. I now go out and drive places I would never have. Including several runs to the Colorado mountains 600 miles away for weekends.   Charging for me is a total non issue and much simpler than filling up with gas. Every aspect is so much better than an ICE car I would never consider another one. Period.  I do not consider myself a fringe car owner. The electric charging capability which I enjoy at home is only being used by a tiny fraction of those who can. There are far more of us than there are EVs to buy right now.  Bottom line is there is nothing missing from the EV experience and very quickly you realize all the things the ICE cars do not have and can never do.  This is not even close. ICE has lost. I don’t blame you for loving your cars and I encourage it by all means but if you want to look at this financially you may want to invest accordingly. 
I do get that some less price competitive EV still will not sell without incentives but that is due to other EV choices not due to other ICE choices.  Porsche and Audi will need to focus a bit on price once there is more competition . The Model S was just lowered to $72 k here in the US. 
Hey, I like my Turbo to but RC is right. EVs will eat ICE cars for breakfast.  End of story. There will still be those of us who have and try to keep driving the ICE cars. Not certain we will be as accepted as horse owners are today. They did not get blamed for global warming back then.  it 

 Honestly, I doubt that you have the ability to judge...   You are trying to compare am15 year old ICE with current production cars. You cannot compare if you don‘t have access to the relevant benchmarks. So it is best for you to stay mute, read and learn from those who can. Sorry for the harsh words...

MKSGR:

RC:

Nobody can beat EV performance, in a couple of years, we are going to see performance figures in regular cars which would fit a current super sportscar. I won't even start with those ultra hyper EV cars which will be available in a couple of years, I do not think that current sports cars will have even the slightest chance to beat them, especially in straight line performance.

Let's face it: EVs are probably the future in any possible car (and maybe even truck/bus) category but when it comes to emotional driving fun, our current ICE cars will be a completely different story here.

I just wonder what sense an ultra hyper EV sports car makes with 2000 hp, doing 0-200 kph (124 mph) in 5 seconds, when almost every country on this planet has a lower speed limit. Germany will follow, it is just a matter of time.

So in the end, our ICE fun cars will be the one people want...if they have the money to pay for gas.  

I totally disagree. EV performance to date is far below the ICE level.

Keep em coming. 

Wonderbar:

Leawood or anyone, PLEASE don’t view the following questions as an opinion or a comment on EV’s versus ICE cars. I honestly want to know.  

1. My wife and I just spent a delightful week in Vermont.  She has been seriously considering a Model 3, but raised questions about charging stations and times. She commented that she would not want to have to worry about where to get her car charged or having to wait and waste time on vacation. I told her about the app which identifies nearby charging stations, but I can tell she wasn’t particularly convinced. Any advice?

Charging is a worry for about the first five minutes of ownership.  The car itself knows where charging stations are but you can also get apps which claim to do a better job.  Mostly you will charge at home and never waste time again going to the gas station.  For long trips at high speed count on about three hours of driving for every 20 minutes of charging at superchargers.  I highly recommend you drive it to see if it for you.  It will do many unexpected things you will never want to do without again once you realize them. 

2. My son and I have been spending the last three weekends at the track. Most of the cars of course were ICE cars, but there were one or two Model 3 competitions. One owner commented that his car decreases significantly after about 15 minutes of fast driving on the track. Also the Model 3s seemed to be constantly plugged into the electrical stations at the track. I for one would like to see Tesla move more into the racing scene, but I wonder if you have any comments about that, or about the charging issues under fast track driving?

I have not tracked the car so I can’t say I have seen any performance degradation during my driving.  Only when the battery is very low - 20% or less.  The model3 has much better thermal management than the S and does not require you to go into any special mode for all the acceleration power.  It is on tap all the time.  That said I don’t think this is a track car to be used all afternoon.  It is most fun just darting around in traffic like a slot car.  I just don’t see much point in tracking it.  For a few laps it would be very competitive but I would think it is not that type of car.  Who knows  I could be wrong.  For the street it is perfect - other cars are your bitch at any light. 

Thanks!

 

MKSGR:

Leawood911:

MKSGR:

Leawood911:

nberry:

Mike, government can be good especially when it involves automobile regulation. There are a number of regulations that have saved hundreds of thousand of lives. You need to trust government more. 

You need to accept that positive change comes from the free market not from government regulations. Who is to say safety would not be improved upon more frequently with less regulations?  Why is it not better to have people drive EVs because they are fun, save,  lean and efficient rather than due to government regulations?  You are almost arguing that these regulations don’t make sense but we need to trust big government. In this case I actually think that the California mandate will have zero impact by then. It’s all good. 
 

Tell me why I want a 10 cent on the dollar outfit helping me in any way?  No thanks. The smaller the size of government the larger my freedoms. I’m okay with that. I kinda trust me more than government. Does that help?

The free market alone would not give EV a single chance. All EV sales today are driven by subsidies. Direct subsidies to buyers. And subsidies to Tesla for selling "emission rights". 

Great post in terms of its ability to illustrate how far off one can be.  I bet you could amuse the VW executives with it and maybe they would get one decent nights sleep out of it. 
I think the stock market is pretty much at odds with every one of these points. Tesla is now sold without any subsidies and zero advertising. They can’t make them fast enough to advertise.  I am a hardcore 911 driver.  For my entire life!  I have very quickly discovered that it is faster, more fun, safer, cheaper buy a ton and - since I love to drive - is opening up new driving adventures for me each day. I now go out and drive places I would never have. Including several runs to the Colorado mountains 600 miles away for weekends.   Charging for me is a total non issue and much simpler than filling up with gas. Every aspect is so much better than an ICE car I would never consider another one. Period.  I do not consider myself a fringe car owner. The electric charging capability which I enjoy at home is only being used by a tiny fraction of those who can. There are far more of us than there are EVs to buy right now.  Bottom line is there is nothing missing from the EV experience and very quickly you realize all the things the ICE cars do not have and can never do.  This is not even close. ICE has lost. I don’t blame you for loving your cars and I encourage it by all means but if you want to look at this financially you may want to invest accordingly. 
I do get that some less price competitive EV still will not sell without incentives but that is due to other EV choices not due to other ICE choices.  Porsche and Audi will need to focus a bit on price once there is more competition . The Model S was just lowered to $72 k here in the US. 
Hey, I like my Turbo to but RC is right. EVs will eat ICE cars for breakfast.  End of story. There will still be those of us who have and try to keep driving the ICE cars. Not certain we will be as accepted as horse owners are today. They did not get blamed for global warming back then.  it 

 Honestly, I doubt that you have the ability to judge...   You are trying to compare am15 year old ICE with current production cars. You cannot compare if you don‘t have access to the relevant benchmarks. So it is best for you to stay mute, read and learn from those who can. Sorry for the harsh words...

That’s fine, you just don’t know me. Not only do I have the new Tesla I also have neighbors with 720s and all types of other supercars.  You would be mistaken if I am not always going for fun rides in various cars.  Maybe you need to drive a model3 performance?  I can’t recall what t you have or not. 
Maybe you respect Christian Koenigsegg who calls the model3 the perfect daily driver.  He maybe has some clout in your mind?

Leawood911:

MKSGR:

RC:

Nobody can beat EV performance, in a couple of years, we are going to see performance figures in regular cars which would fit a current super sportscar. I won't even start with those ultra hyper EV cars which will be available in a couple of years, I do not think that current sports cars will have even the slightest chance to beat them, especially in straight line performance.

Let's face it: EVs are probably the future in any possible car (and maybe even truck/bus) category but when it comes to emotional driving fun, our current ICE cars will be a completely different story here.

I just wonder what sense an ultra hyper EV sports car makes with 2000 hp, doing 0-200 kph (124 mph) in 5 seconds, when almost every country on this planet has a lower speed limit. Germany will follow, it is just a matter of time.

So in the end, our ICE fun cars will be the one people want...if they have the money to pay for gas.  

I totally disagree. EV performance to date is far below the ICE level.

Keep em coming. 

As said: as you don’t know benchmarks you cannot discuss. Bit you can share the insight of those who can 

Leawood911:

MKSGR:

Leawood911:

MKSGR:

Leawood911:

nberry:

Mike, government can be good especially when it involves automobile regulation. There are a number of regulations that have saved hundreds of thousand of lives. You need to trust government more. 

You need to accept that positive change comes from the free market not from government regulations. Who is to say safety would not be improved upon more frequently with less regulations?  Why is it not better to have people drive EVs because they are fun, save,  lean and efficient rather than due to government regulations?  You are almost arguing that these regulations don’t make sense but we need to trust big government. In this case I actually think that the California mandate will have zero impact by then. It’s all good. 
 

Tell me why I want a 10 cent on the dollar outfit helping me in any way?  No thanks. The smaller the size of government the larger my freedoms. I’m okay with that. I kinda trust me more than government. Does that help?

The free market alone would not give EV a single chance. All EV sales today are driven by subsidies. Direct subsidies to buyers. And subsidies to Tesla for selling "emission rights". 

Great post in terms of its ability to illustrate how far off one can be.  I bet you could amuse the VW executives with it and maybe they would get one decent nights sleep out of it. 
I think the stock market is pretty much at odds with every one of these points. Tesla is now sold without any subsidies and zero advertising. They can’t make them fast enough to advertise.  I am a hardcore 911 driver.  For my entire life!  I have very quickly discovered that it is faster, more fun, safer, cheaper buy a ton and - since I love to drive - is opening up new driving adventures for me each day. I now go out and drive places I would never have. Including several runs to the Colorado mountains 600 miles away for weekends.   Charging for me is a total non issue and much simpler than filling up with gas. Every aspect is so much better than an ICE car I would never consider another one. Period.  I do not consider myself a fringe car owner. The electric charging capability which I enjoy at home is only being used by a tiny fraction of those who can. There are far more of us than there are EVs to buy right now.  Bottom line is there is nothing missing from the EV experience and very quickly you realize all the things the ICE cars do not have and can never do.  This is not even close. ICE has lost. I don’t blame you for loving your cars and I encourage it by all means but if you want to look at this financially you may want to invest accordingly. 
I do get that some less price competitive EV still will not sell without incentives but that is due to other EV choices not due to other ICE choices.  Porsche and Audi will need to focus a bit on price once there is more competition . The Model S was just lowered to $72 k here in the US. 
Hey, I like my Turbo to but RC is right. EVs will eat ICE cars for breakfast.  End of story. There will still be those of us who have and try to keep driving the ICE cars. Not certain we will be as accepted as horse owners are today. They did not get blamed for global warming back then.  it 

 Honestly, I doubt that you have the ability to judge...   You are trying to compare am15 year old ICE with current production cars. You cannot compare if you don‘t have access to the relevant benchmarks. So it is best for you to stay mute, read and learn from those who can. Sorry for the harsh words...

That’s fine, you just don’t know me. Not only do I have the new Tesla I also have neighbors with 720s and all types of other supercars.  You would be mistaken if I am not always going for fun rides in various cars.  Maybe you need to drive a model3 performance?  I can’t recall what t you have or not. 
Maybe you respect Christian Koenigsegg who calls the model3 the perfect daily driver.  He maybe has some clout in your mind?

Your neighbours might have other cars. But that is irrelevant. You are constantly comparing a 15 year old ICE with a middle classe Tesla. I al comparing a Taycan turbo s with a 992 turbo s on a track. That is a completely different setup. The former might be interesting. The latter is relevant for comapring the technologies 

W8MM:

Whoopsy:

 

Since electric motors are hyper inefficient at higher speed, the lowered speed limit will suite the performance characteristics of a EV perfectly. EVs will simply get to the speed limit quicker. 

In a way, electric motors are like diesel engine cars. Great torque down low, gets the car going quicker. That's what benefit normal people in their normal driving.

Not so fast, Nick.

Electric motors can be VERY efficient at high RPM.

I am using the description in an automotive usage sense. 

While a conventional engine turning at high rpm will also run down it's gas tank quickly just as a automotive electric motor drain the battery quickly at high speed, a pack of battery inherently store less energy than a equivalent tank of gas and also takes longer to refill. Travelling at high speed in a EV is not very time efficient.

Wonderbar:

Leawood or anyone, PLEASE don’t view the following questions as an opinion or a comment on EV’s versus ICE cars. I honestly want to know.  

1. My wife and I just spent a delightful week in Vermont.  She has been seriously considering a Model 3, but raised questions about charging stations and times. She commented that she would not want to have to worry about where to get her car charged or having to wait and waste time on vacation. I told her about the app which identifies nearby charging stations, but I can tell she wasn’t particularly convinced. Any advice?

2. My son and I have been spending the last three weekends at the track. Most of the cars of course were ICE cars, but there were one or two Model 3 competitions. One owner commented that his car decreases significantly after about 15 minutes of fast driving on the track. Also the Model 3s seemed to be constantly plugged into the electrical stations at the track. I for one would like to see Tesla move more into the racing scene, but I wonder if you have any comments about that, or about the charging issues under fast track driving?

Thanks!

 

1. That's the big sacrifice one need to make when making the jump to EVs. You will always need to plan ahead, you cannot do spontaneous road trips in a EV. You have read about it in the other thread. We are still decades away from having EV chargers as numerous as gas stations and where you can spontaneous go do a road trip in a EV without checking for where the chargers are located and available. 

2. Those Model 3 guys simply want their batteries toped off between sessions. That's the big difference between EV and normal cars. a full tank in a EV does not affect the weight of the car, and having a full tank means maximum voltage coming out from the battery, so max performance. 

When you have a normal or hybrid car, you feel the freedom of driving wherever and whenever you feel like. A EV takes that away. You will have to adapt to the car, not the other way around. Your freedom is taken away, replaced with a tether to a charging cord. The other side will argue charging stations are plentiful, especially with Tesla's supercharger network, but those are still scattered along major routes, very unlike gas stations, where no matter how remote you will travel to, there will always be at least one somewhere. And even if there is none, a jerry can will instantly restore mobility to the car. 

I refused to be leashed by a charging cord, so unless I know absolutely for sure there are charging stations alone my chosen route, and not out of my way and need a detour just to get to one, I reuses to take my EV. Which reinforced the notion that a EV is still primarily a city car. 
--

In my experience I find myself much more likely to go out all over town and explore. Rather than worry about range I love to go places for a penny per mile. There is nothing like it.  This has nothing to do with superchargers. I’m talking everyday use with charging at home. I put 16k miles on mine in 10 months of work from home living. We would take it out at night and just drive around. So my experience is exactly opposite of what whoopsy describes. Thankfully. 
 

While it is nice to keep the battery charged there is zero difference in performance if your model3 is at 90% or 30%. One will just last longer. Power does not drop until you get about 50 miles remaining. Then It is very sharp and noticeable.  
 

With 270 miles of DAILY around town driving range I am not a slave to any cord. Nor am I a slave to a gas station or huge fuel bills.  I would reckon there are more of me - budget and fun oriented drivers - than 918 owners.  They have less tangible standards.  Some of which I wish I could afford. 

Nice posts Leawood, thanks for sharing that!

Leawood911:

In my experience I find myself much more likely to go out all over town and explore. Rather than worry about range I love to go places for a penny per mile. There is nothing like it.  This has nothing to do with superchargers. I’m talking everyday use with charging at home. I put 16k miles on mine in 10 months of work from home living. We would take it out at night and just drive around. So my experience is exactly opposite of what whoopsy describes. Thankfully. 
 

While it is nice to keep the battery charged there is zero difference in performance if your model3 is at 90% or 30%. One will just last longer. Power does not drop until you get about 50 miles remaining. Then It is very sharp and noticeable.  
 

With 270 miles of DAILY around town driving range I am not a slave to any cord. Nor am I a slave to a gas station or huge fuel bills.  I would reckon there are more of me - budget and fun oriented drivers - than 918 owners.  They have less tangible standards.  Some of which I wish I could afford. 

Even my Panamera turbo S with 36ish km of electric range is good enough for me to go around town.

I can randomly pick a destination in Canada, or the USA, be it Seattle, Toronto or Orlando right now, and jump in my Panamera, or any car except my e-Tron or Taycan, and just drive there. No need to make sure it is fully charged or full of fuel. Gas station are everywhere and I. can start with a empty tank and still get fuelled up in 5 mins. If I want do to such a spontaneous trip in a EV, I can't. I need to either open my computer and start searching for charing stations and plan around those stations, or I could jump in the car right away but needed to program my destination and have the car find me chargers along the way. If a charger is close by, I don't quite have to make sure the car is fully charged, but I still need to waste time finding a charger, or I could start driving right away but needed the passenger to enter destination or search, or I do it myself while driving. 

Starting with a full charge means I have a bit more time to search for the next charger, but that also means I needed to remember to plug it in the night before. 

Like I said, doing the EV lifestyle means you are tethered to a plug. Even in a Tesla with a vast network of superchargers, one is still driving around their locations. Not really 'freedom'. 

Do you enjoy driving the Taycan more than the Panamera Whoopsy?

rhino:

Do you enjoy driving the Taycan more than the Panamera Whoopsy?

That's a good question. Not quite apples to apples.

Objectively speaking, my Panamera is more loaded, 18 way seats, head up display, leather everywhere, PDCC, RWS, etc. Pretty much all the features I want and I enjoy being pampered in it. 

Subjectively speaking, the Taycan feels sharper in every sense, drives almost like a sports car. But a grand touring car for sure. It is however less comfortable than the Panamera. And also carry less stuff'. I would say it sits right in between my Exclusive turbo S and the Panamera turbo S. 

I think I will give the nod to the Taycan if they are both comparably equipped. I like my sedans cars to be more on the side of sportiness. 

MKSGR:

Leawood911:

MKSGR:

Leawood911:

MKSGR:

Leawood911:

nberry:

Mike, government can be good especially when it involves automobile regulation. There are a number of regulations that have saved hundreds of thousand of lives. You need to trust government more. 

You need to accept that positive change comes from the free market not from government regulations. Who is to say safety would not be improved upon more frequently with less regulations?  Why is it not better to have people drive EVs because they are fun, save,  lean and efficient rather than due to government regulations?  You are almost arguing that these regulations don’t make sense but we need to trust big government. In this case I actually think that the California mandate will have zero impact by then. It’s all good. 
 

Tell me why I want a 10 cent on the dollar outfit helping me in any way?  No thanks. The smaller the size of government the larger my freedoms. I’m okay with that. I kinda trust me more than government. Does that help?

The free market alone would not give EV a single chance. All EV sales today are driven by subsidies. Direct subsidies to buyers. And subsidies to Tesla for selling "emission rights". 

Great post in terms of its ability to illustrate how far off one can be.  I bet you could amuse the VW executives with it and maybe they would get one decent nights sleep out of it. 
I think the stock market is pretty much at odds with every one of these points. Tesla is now sold without any subsidies and zero advertising. They can’t make them fast enough to advertise.  I am a hardcore 911 driver.  For my entire life!  I have very quickly discovered that it is faster, more fun, safer, cheaper buy a ton and - since I love to drive - is opening up new driving adventures for me each day. I now go out and drive places I would never have. Including several runs to the Colorado mountains 600 miles away for weekends.   Charging for me is a total non issue and much simpler than filling up with gas. Every aspect is so much better than an ICE car I would never consider another one. Period.  I do not consider myself a fringe car owner. The electric charging capability which I enjoy at home is only being used by a tiny fraction of those who can. There are far more of us than there are EVs to buy right now.  Bottom line is there is nothing missing from the EV experience and very quickly you realize all the things the ICE cars do not have and can never do.  This is not even close. ICE has lost. I don’t blame you for loving your cars and I encourage it by all means but if you want to look at this financially you may want to invest accordingly. 
I do get that some less price competitive EV still will not sell without incentives but that is due to other EV choices not due to other ICE choices.  Porsche and Audi will need to focus a bit on price once there is more competition . The Model S was just lowered to $72 k here in the US. 
Hey, I like my Turbo to but RC is right. EVs will eat ICE cars for breakfast.  End of story. There will still be those of us who have and try to keep driving the ICE cars. Not certain we will be as accepted as horse owners are today. They did not get blamed for global warming back then.  it 

 Honestly, I doubt that you have the ability to judge...   You are trying to compare am15 year old ICE with current production cars. You cannot compare if you don‘t have access to the relevant benchmarks. So it is best for you to stay mute, read and learn from those who can. Sorry for the harsh words...

That’s fine, you just don’t know me. Not only do I have the new Tesla I also have neighbors with 720s and all types of other supercars.  You would be mistaken if I am not always going for fun rides in various cars.  Maybe you need to drive a model3 performance?  I can’t recall what t you have or not. 
Maybe you respect Christian Koenigsegg who calls the model3 the perfect daily driver.  He maybe has some clout in your mind?

Your neighbours might have other cars. But that is irrelevant. You are constantly comparing a 15 year old ICE with a middle classe Tesla. I al comparing a Taycan turbo s with a 992 turbo s on a track. That is a completely different setup. The former might be interesting. The latter is relevant for comapring the technologies 

The more I think about the more I must consider my old Turbo to actually be a very capable drivers car. Exactly the type of car you would want to compare to an EV. I would never buy a new Turbo with an automatic transmission.  My 997 has all the goods an analog driver would want. Shorter wheelbase, no electric steering, manual transmission, dry sump motor and shiploads of power.  Your argument of comparing to a newer Porsche would not apply to me as much.  
   Sorry, sometimes I toss and turn about these posts and find myself replying a bit late.   

Leawood911:

MKSGR:

Leawood911:

MKSGR:

Leawood911:

MKSGR:

Leawood911:

nberry:

Mike, government can be good especially when it involves automobile regulation. There are a number of regulations that have saved hundreds of thousand of lives. You need to trust government more. 

You need to accept that positive change comes from the free market not from government regulations. Who is to say safety would not be improved upon more frequently with less regulations?  Why is it not better to have people drive EVs because they are fun, save,  lean and efficient rather than due to government regulations?  You are almost arguing that these regulations don’t make sense but we need to trust big government. In this case I actually think that the California mandate will have zero impact by then. It’s all good. 
 

Tell me why I want a 10 cent on the dollar outfit helping me in any way?  No thanks. The smaller the size of government the larger my freedoms. I’m okay with that. I kinda trust me more than government. Does that help?

The free market alone would not give EV a single chance. All EV sales today are driven by subsidies. Direct subsidies to buyers. And subsidies to Tesla for selling "emission rights". 

Great post in terms of its ability to illustrate how far off one can be.  I bet you could amuse the VW executives with it and maybe they would get one decent nights sleep out of it. 
I think the stock market is pretty much at odds with every one of these points. Tesla is now sold without any subsidies and zero advertising. They can’t make them fast enough to advertise.  I am a hardcore 911 driver.  For my entire life!  I have very quickly discovered that it is faster, more fun, safer, cheaper buy a ton and - since I love to drive - is opening up new driving adventures for me each day. I now go out and drive places I would never have. Including several runs to the Colorado mountains 600 miles away for weekends.   Charging for me is a total non issue and much simpler than filling up with gas. Every aspect is so much better than an ICE car I would never consider another one. Period.  I do not consider myself a fringe car owner. The electric charging capability which I enjoy at home is only being used by a tiny fraction of those who can. There are far more of us than there are EVs to buy right now.  Bottom line is there is nothing missing from the EV experience and very quickly you realize all the things the ICE cars do not have and can never do.  This is not even close. ICE has lost. I don’t blame you for loving your cars and I encourage it by all means but if you want to look at this financially you may want to invest accordingly. 
I do get that some less price competitive EV still will not sell without incentives but that is due to other EV choices not due to other ICE choices.  Porsche and Audi will need to focus a bit on price once there is more competition . The Model S was just lowered to $72 k here in the US. 
Hey, I like my Turbo to but RC is right. EVs will eat ICE cars for breakfast.  End of story. There will still be those of us who have and try to keep driving the ICE cars. Not certain we will be as accepted as horse owners are today. They did not get blamed for global warming back then.  it 

 Honestly, I doubt that you have the ability to judge...   You are trying to compare am15 year old ICE with current production cars. You cannot compare if you don‘t have access to the relevant benchmarks. So it is best for you to stay mute, read and learn from those who can. Sorry for the harsh words...

That’s fine, you just don’t know me. Not only do I have the new Tesla I also have neighbors with 720s and all types of other supercars.  You would be mistaken if I am not always going for fun rides in various cars.  Maybe you need to drive a model3 performance?  I can’t recall what t you have or not. 
Maybe you respect Christian Koenigsegg who calls the model3 the perfect daily driver.  He maybe has some clout in your mind?

Your neighbours might have other cars. But that is irrelevant. You are constantly comparing a 15 year old ICE with a middle classe Tesla. I al comparing a Taycan turbo s with a 992 turbo s on a track. That is a completely different setup. The former might be interesting. The latter is relevant for comapring the technologies 

The more I think about the more I must consider my old Turbo to actually be a very capable drivers car. Exactly the type of car you would want to compare to an EV. I would never buy a new Turbo with an automatic transmission.  My 997 has all the goods an analog driver would want. Shorter wheelbase, no electric steering, manual transmission, dry sump motor and shiploads of power.  Your argument of comparing to a newer Porsche would not apply to me as much.  
   Sorry, sometimes I toss and turn about these posts and find myself replying a bit late.   

Of course, I am not saying the older Porsches are less fascinating. But of course, they are not comparable to a current production Tesla in the sense that they were built many years ago

MKSGR:

RC:

Nobody can beat EV performance, in a couple of years, we are going to see performance figures in regular cars which would fit a current super sportscar. I won't even start with those ultra hyper EV cars which will be available in a couple of years, I do not think that current sports cars will have even the slightest chance to beat them, especially in straight line performance.

Let's face it: EVs are probably the future in any possible car (and maybe even truck/bus) category but when it comes to emotional driving fun, our current ICE cars will be a completely different story here.

I just wonder what sense an ultra hyper EV sports car makes with 2000 hp, doing 0-200 kph (124 mph) in 5 seconds, when almost every country on this planet has a lower speed limit. Germany will follow, it is just a matter of time.

So in the end, our ICE fun cars will be the one people want...if they have the money to pay for gas.  

I totally disagree. EV performance to date is far below the ICE level.

That. 

Also, wait for the Tesla S Plaid. I might get one (not sure yet, I have so many cars on my "list" right now but for my business, an EV would make sense most...cost-wise), why not get the fastest when I have to get one? 

Do you really think Porsche couldn't put a bigger battery into the Taycan and make a 1200 hp car out of it? Range at full output power? Who gives a crap when this thing would hit the quarter mile below 9 seconds.  Similar to the new Tesla S Plaid. If true.

Markus, electric motors and electronics plus amazing software are a very good mix, they can basically build a car which almost defies physics (limited by tires and asphalt quality only). Don't underestimate EV tech, in a couple of years, it will be shockingly efficient and fast (not talking about range necessarily...yet). 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

Whoopsy:

rhino:

Do you enjoy driving the Taycan more than the Panamera Whoopsy?

 

That's a good question. Not quite apples to apples.

Objectively speaking, my Panamera is more loaded, 18 way seats, head up display, leather everywhere, PDCC, RWS, etc. Pretty much all the features I want and I enjoy being pampered in it. 

Subjectively speaking, the Taycan feels sharper in every sense, drives almost like a sports car. But a grand touring car for sure. It is however less comfortable than the Panamera. And also carry less stuff'. I would say it sits right in between my Exclusive turbo S and the Panamera turbo S. 

I think I will give the nod to the Taycan if they are both comparably equipped. I like my sedans cars to be more on the side of sportiness. 

Thank you Whoopsy

RC:

MKSGR:

RC:

Nobody can beat EV performance, in a couple of years, we are going to see performance figures in regular cars which would fit a current super sportscar. I won't even start with those ultra hyper EV cars which will be available in a couple of years, I do not think that current sports cars will have even the slightest chance to beat them, especially in straight line performance.

Let's face it: EVs are probably the future in any possible car (and maybe even truck/bus) category but when it comes to emotional driving fun, our current ICE cars will be a completely different story here.

I just wonder what sense an ultra hyper EV sports car makes with 2000 hp, doing 0-200 kph (124 mph) in 5 seconds, when almost every country on this planet has a lower speed limit. Germany will follow, it is just a matter of time.

So in the end, our ICE fun cars will be the one people want...if they have the money to pay for gas.  

I totally disagree. EV performance to date is far below the ICE level.

That. 

Also, wait for the Tesla S Plaid. I might get one (not sure yet, I have so many cars on my "list" right now but for my business, an EV would make sense most...cost-wise), why not get the fastest when I have to get one? 

Do you really think Porsche couldn't put a bigger battery into the Taycan and make a 1200 hp car out of it? Range at full output power? Who gives a crap when this thing would hit the quarter mile below 9 seconds.  Similar to the new Tesla S Plaid. If true.

Markus, electric motors and electronics plus amazing software are a very good mix, they can basically build a car which almost defies physics (limited by tires and asphalt quality only). Don't underestimate EV tech, in a couple of years, it will be shockingly efficient and fast (not talking about range necessarily...yet). 

--

 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

 

With current technology there will be no positive surprises. Too heavy. Inferior handling as a consequence. Also, „plaid“ does not make any sense - a total niche product (if it would ever come to the market, which I doubt). 

If Tesla wants to survive they need to focus on bread and butter... 

I’m looking forward to more range, less weight, faster charging, more power and major handling advances thanks to computerized drivetrains. All of the next big surprises seem to be heading to EVs. I don’t see much in terms of huge advances with ICE by comparison. 
You can go an order a Plaid version now. It’s purpose is to be a Halo type car. Ever heard of that?  It serves to keep ahead of the competition. Can you think of other names which do this?  
Tesla might not survive unless they take your advice. While you are at it you may want to rescue a few other car companies or are all the others doing just fine?  
You can’t make this stuff up.  Keep em coming. I hate Mondays. 
As far as. I know all their new factories are making bread and butter. Only Fremont will make that nonsense Plaid car which will never actually happen because it’s is a lie. Of course. 

Leawood911:

I’m looking forward to more range, less weight, faster charging, more power and major handling advances thanks to computerized drivetrains. All of the next big surprises seem to be heading to EVs. 

But only with a completely new battery technology  That might change a lot, if it happens in the next years 

Leawood911:

As far as. I know all their new factories are making bread and butter. Only Fremont will make that nonsense Plaid car which will never actually happen because it’s is a lie. Of course. 

You can order: Plaid, Roadster and truck - and you will never actually own a car  Only in once dreams will they exist 

MKSGR:

You can order: Plaid, Roadster and truck - and you will never actually own a car  

That was too easy 

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⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

Look at how good the big screen on the new Escalade look. It doesn't have that off the shelf square corner look. The curve corner takes on a more luxury look without costing too much. Custom touches like this sets it apart. 

Tesla needs to take a page out of GM's playbook. Same with Porsche, Audi, BMW and everyone else.

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You can already order the Plaid in Germany (and allover the world)... This is not vaporware, at least I hope it.  

Current tech allows a lot of things, making a 2000 hp EV is already possible with current tech but I don't know how long the battery would last. Probably for 50 miles?  You underestimate the possibilities of electric motors and the proper control units/software.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

RC:

You can already order the Plaid in Germany (and allover the world)... This is not vaporware, at least I hope it.  

Current tech allows a lot of things, making a 2000 hp EV is already possible with current tech but I don't know how long the battery would last. Probably for 50 miles?  You underestimate the possibilities of electric motors and the proper control units/software.

You can also order the Roadster (for a long time) and the truck