Crown

CGX car nut:

Better yet, just have government nationalize auto production and give everyone a government sponsored car that fits the clean air and no noise agenda.  

You mean we all have to drive a Tesla? 

RC:

 Couldn't agree more, Nick. Let's get rid of the old cars as soon as possible. How? Governments should offer tax incentives and maybe even premiums to buy new cars and to put old cars out of service.

Also, it makes sense to electrify heavy trucks and maybe even city buses, same goes to delivery services like Amazon, UPS, DHL and others.

The whole EVs and ICE stuff has become, similar to the current pandemic, a political thing. Conflict doesn't solve environmental problems of the future, compromises do. If you want people to get onboard with green tech, you need to make them believe that it makes (somehow) sense. Forcing people will not work, not in modern societies. 

My city already run electric buses, and fuel cell powered buses has been on the road for like 15 years now. Also a cash for clunker program for people to trade in older cars for EVs and hybrids. 

Most of the delivery vans from major companies are on propane. 

But common sense have no place in politics. No one wants that. There was a time when I thought about dipping into politics, campaigning on common sense, but I realized even if I get elected, I would be assassinated well before taking office. Too many 'special interest' groups that I would angered. 

Leawood911:

CGX car nut:

Better yet, just have government nationalize auto production and give everyone a government sponsored car that fits the clean air and no noise agenda.  

A TraBolt. 

Or a Wattburg?

--

Mike

918 Spyder + Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S P100D AP2 + Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T

CGX car nut:

Better yet, just have government nationalize auto production and give everyone a government sponsored car that fits the clean air and no noise agenda.  

 If we aren't careful, this is going to happen once full level 5 autonomous driving has been achieved. 

Speaking of nationalization: The State of Lower Saxony (Germany) has 20% voting rights in VW Group. Porsche SE has 53.3% in comparison but the government still has a lot of saying, especially when it comes to the working force.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

W8MM:

Leawood911:

CGX car nut:

Better yet, just have government nationalize auto production and give everyone a government sponsored car that fits the clean air and no noise agenda.  

A TraBolt. 

Or a Wattburg?

--

 

Mike

 

918 Spyder + Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S P100D AP2 + Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T

Wartburg and Trabant weren't cars, they were anomalies.  

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

Back on topic....   I must admit I am curious about the Estate / Cross Turismo version, whenever Porsche get around to producing it.     Kind of a slightly shrunken, EV version of a Ferrari Lusso GTC4.   To me it has the character that the sedan somehow is missing.   

2017 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2019 Porsche 911 Turbo

4trac:

Back on topic....   I must admit I am curious about the Estate / Cross Turismo version, whenever Porsche get around to producing it.     Kind of a slightly shrunken, EV version of a Ferrari Lusso GTC4.   To me it has the character that the sedan somehow is missing.   

That's also the version I want. I only get my current car to test the 4S and see if I like the performance of the 4S as I drove a Taycan turbo before already. I think I am going to stick with a 4S for the Cross Turismo.

But the sad thing about the Cross Turismo is that it loses the beautiful rear of the sedan.

Whoopsy:

4trac:

Back on topic....   I must admit I am curious about the Estate / Cross Turismo version, whenever Porsche get around to producing it.     Kind of a slightly shrunken, EV version of a Ferrari Lusso GTC4.   To me it has the character that the sedan somehow is missing.   

 

That's also the version I want. I only get my current car to test the 4S and see if I like the performance of the 4S as I drove a Taycan turbo before already. I think I am going to stick with a 4S for the Cross Turismo.

But the sad thing about the Cross Turismo is that it loses the beautiful rear of the sedan.

And I just found out that apparently Ferrari has killed the Lusso; making room for their real SUV in a couple of years.  So Porsche's fast hearse will stay pretty unique in the market.

2017 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2019 Porsche 911 Turbo

SUV makes sense for all manufacturers (I wonder how long McLaren can stay away), especially in view of the EV future.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

Interesting article, almost all Porsches Electric in 2020. Hard to believe!

https://electrek.co/2018/04/09/porsche-ceo-only-electric-vehicles-2030/

JR-550:

Interesting article, almost all Porsches Electric in 2020. Hard to believe!

https://electrek.co/2018/04/09/porsche-ceo-only-electric-vehicles-2030/

2030. 

This article is from before the Corona pandemic. I do not think that the 2030 time table is realistic but who knows?!

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

RC:

JR-550:

Interesting article, almost all Porsches Electric in 2020. Hard to believe!

https://electrek.co/2018/04/09/porsche-ceo-only-electric-vehicles-2030/

2030. 

This article is from before the Corona pandemic. I do not think that the 2030 time table is realistic but who knows?!

At least this change will be driven by competition and free markets and not so much by government regulations. Expect a much better outcome as a result and perhaps an even more aggressive timeline. 
Let’s face it. As soon as the electric versions of the Porsches leave the gas powered ones in dust in all categories it’s game over. They won’t be able to hobble the electric version ala Cayman gearing via the rest because other electric sports cars will eat their lunch.  Simple. Expect this move quickly in one direction. Don’t ask me why. 

Leawood911:

RC:

JR-550:

Interesting article, almost all Porsches Electric in 2020. Hard to believe!

https://electrek.co/2018/04/09/porsche-ceo-only-electric-vehicles-2030/

2030. 

This article is from before the Corona pandemic. I do not think that the 2030 time table is realistic but who knows?!

At least this change will be driven by competition and free markets and not so much by government regulations. Expect a much better outcome as a result and perhaps an even more aggressive timeline. 
Let’s face it. As soon as the electric versions of the Porsches leave the gas powered ones in dust in all categories it’s game over. They won’t be able to hobble the electric version ala Cayman gearing via the rest because other electric sports cars will eat their lunch.  Simple. Expect this move quickly in one direction. Don’t ask me why. 

I expect the opposite 

Leawood911:

RC:

JR-550:

Interesting article, almost all Porsches Electric in 2020. Hard to believe!

https://electrek.co/2018/04/09/porsche-ceo-only-electric-vehicles-2030/

2030. 

This article is from before the Corona pandemic. I do not think that the 2030 time table is realistic but who knows?!

At least this change will be driven by competition and free markets and not so much by government regulations. Expect a much better outcome as a result and perhaps an even more aggressive timeline. 
Let’s face it. As soon as the electric versions of the Porsches leave the gas powered ones in dust in all categories it’s game over. They won’t be able to hobble the electric version ala Cayman gearing via the rest because other electric sports cars will eat their lunch.  Simple. Expect this move quickly in one direction. Don’t ask me why. 

If not for government regulations Porsche or VAG or anyone else wouldn't have done it.

Their current product mix IS what the market wants. They build cars based on WHAT the market wants. Market want some EVs? They make the Taycans. Market wants hybrids? They have hybrid sedans and SUVs. Market want sports cars? They make loads of 911s and Caymans and Boxsters. 

IF as you says it's driven by what the consumers wants, then no one will be buying ANY normal cars, all will be lining up to buy EVs. They are not. 

MKSGR:

Leawood911:

RC:

JR-550:

Interesting article, almost all Porsches Electric in 2020. Hard to believe!

https://electrek.co/2018/04/09/porsche-ceo-only-electric-vehicles-2030/

2030. 

This article is from before the Corona pandemic. I do not think that the 2030 time table is realistic but who knows?!

At least this change will be driven by competition and free markets and not so much by government regulations. Expect a much better outcome as a result and perhaps an even more aggressive timeline. 
Let’s face it. As soon as the electric versions of the Porsches leave the gas powered ones in dust in all categories it’s game over. They won’t be able to hobble the electric version ala Cayman gearing via the rest because other electric sports cars will eat their lunch.  Simple. Expect this move quickly in one direction. Don’t ask me why. 

I expect the opposite 

Indeed, we are taking about sportscars, not people movers, the ICE sportscars will be even more coveted, specially by those that enjoy and appreciate to drive real driver's cars.

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

Consider a few factors.

1. The lead time to produce a car is very long. Car companies look at least five years into the future in deciding what to produce at that time. EV vehicles will be banned in CA by 2035.

2. Governments are becoming more aggressive in pushing toward EV's. They are exerting pressure on all manufacturers to retool to EV's. This is done by tax incentives, emissions standards and a new breed of politician.

3. EV sport cars are/ will be produced in much greater numbers in five years. The ICE is a dinosaur and the glory days of loud exhausts will end in about ten years.

4. As we speak, oil companies are planning major new initiatives to anticipate the coming of EV's and safeguard their survival.

Most of you are whistling past the graveyard.

A good memory is fine but the ability to forget is the one true test of greatness.

Whoopsy:

Leawood911:

RC:

JR-550:

Interesting article, almost all Porsches Electric in 2020. Hard to believe!

https://electrek.co/2018/04/09/porsche-ceo-only-electric-vehicles-2030/

2030. 

This article is from before the Corona pandemic. I do not think that the 2030 time table is realistic but who knows?!

At least this change will be driven by competition and free markets and not so much by government regulations. Expect a much better outcome as a result and perhaps an even more aggressive timeline. 
Let’s face it. As soon as the electric versions of the Porsches leave the gas powered ones in dust in all categories it’s game over. They won’t be able to hobble the electric version ala Cayman gearing via the rest because other electric sports cars will eat their lunch.  Simple. Expect this move quickly in one direction. Don’t ask me why. 

 

If not for government regulations Porsche or VAG or anyone else wouldn't have done it.

Their current product mix IS what the market wants. They build cars based on WHAT the market wants. Market want some EVs? They make the Taycans. Market wants hybrids? They have hybrid sedans and SUVs. Market want sports cars? They make loads of 911s and Caymans and Boxsters. 

IF as you says it's driven by what the consumers wants, then no one will be buying ANY normal cars, all will be lining up to buy EVs. They are not. 

 

 

I did not buy my car due to regulations. I happened to drive one and could not stop. I predict there are others like me. That is all. My point is that it is better to transition because it is fun than because the government makes you get into a tiny golf cart.  Maybe we can agree on that 

nberry:

Consider a few factors.

1. The lead time to produce a car is very long. Car companies look at least five years into the future in deciding what to produce at that time. EV vehicles will be banned in CA by 2035.

2. Governments are becoming more aggressive in pushing toward EV's. They are exerting pressure on all manufacturers to retool to EV's. This is done by tax incentives, emissions standards and a new breed of politician.

3. EV sport cars are/ will be produced in much greater numbers in five years. The ICE is a dinosaur and the glory days of loud exhausts will end in about ten years.

4. As we speak, oil companies are planning major new initiatives to anticipate the coming of EV's and safeguard their survival.

Most of you are whistling past the graveyard.

 

I would correct #1. I believe the non EV will be banned. 
 

Anyway, I pray it is not just due to regulations.  Common sense will play a large roll. Cheers

Mike, government can be good especially when it involves automobile regulation. There are a number of regulations that have saved hundreds of thousand of lives. You need to trust government more. 

A good memory is fine but the ability to forget is the one true test of greatness.

nberry:

Mike, government can be good especially when it involves automobile regulation. There are a number of regulations that have saved hundreds of thousand of lives. You need to trust government more. 

You need to accept that positive change comes from the free market not from government regulations. Who is to say safety would not be improved upon more frequently with less regulations?  Why is it not better to have people drive EVs because they are fun, save,  lean and efficient rather than due to government regulations?  You are almost arguing that these regulations don’t make sense but we need to trust big government. In this case I actually think that the California mandate will have zero impact by then. It’s all good. 
 

Tell me why I want a 10 cent on the dollar outfit helping me in any way?  No thanks. The smaller the size of government the larger my freedoms. I’m okay with that. I kinda trust me more than government. Does that help?

Leawood911:

Whoopsy:

Leawood911:

RC:

JR-550:

Interesting article, almost all Porsches Electric in 2020. Hard to believe!

https://electrek.co/2018/04/09/porsche-ceo-only-electric-vehicles-2030/

2030. 

This article is from before the Corona pandemic. I do not think that the 2030 time table is realistic but who knows?!

At least this change will be driven by competition and free markets and not so much by government regulations. Expect a much better outcome as a result and perhaps an even more aggressive timeline. 
Let’s face it. As soon as the electric versions of the Porsches leave the gas powered ones in dust in all categories it’s game over. They won’t be able to hobble the electric version ala Cayman gearing via the rest because other electric sports cars will eat their lunch.  Simple. Expect this move quickly in one direction. Don’t ask me why. 

 

If not for government regulations Porsche or VAG or anyone else wouldn't have done it.

Their current product mix IS what the market wants. They build cars based on WHAT the market wants. Market want some EVs? They make the Taycans. Market wants hybrids? They have hybrid sedans and SUVs. Market want sports cars? They make loads of 911s and Caymans and Boxsters. 

IF as you says it's driven by what the consumers wants, then no one will be buying ANY normal cars, all will be lining up to buy EVs. They are not. 

 

 

I did not buy my car due to regulations. I happened to drive one and could not stop. I predict there are others like me. That is all. My point is that it is better to transition because it is fun than because the government makes you get into a tiny golf cart.  Maybe we can agree on that 

You are the exception, not the norm. Most, if actually going to buy an EV, will be swayed by government incentives. I did, 4 of these 'green' cars now. If not for the tax breaks and HOV stickers, likely I will only have the 918. 

But you are not alone, there are others that think the same way, tried it once and hooked. But at the end of the day, you guys only make up a insignificant portion of the whole car market. There are other factors involved, including but not limited to the limited use of these EV in their daily lives, charging infrastructure is still far far behind, the market can only reach tipping point when these catch up. 

Carlos from Spain:

MKSGR:

Leawood911:

RC:

JR-550:

Interesting article, almost all Porsches Electric in 2020. Hard to believe!

https://electrek.co/2018/04/09/porsche-ceo-only-electric-vehicles-2030/

2030. 

This article is from before the Corona pandemic. I do not think that the 2030 time table is realistic but who knows?!

At least this change will be driven by competition and free markets and not so much by government regulations. Expect a much better outcome as a result and perhaps an even more aggressive timeline. 
Let’s face it. As soon as the electric versions of the Porsches leave the gas powered ones in dust in all categories it’s game over. They won’t be able to hobble the electric version ala Cayman gearing via the rest because other electric sports cars will eat their lunch.  Simple. Expect this move quickly in one direction. Don’t ask me why. 

I expect the opposite 

Indeed, we are taking about sportscars, not people movers, the ICE sportscars will be even more coveted, specially by those that enjoy and appreciate to drive real driver's cars.

And also, if you drive a Taycan and compare it to the 992 the difference is huge (mostly due to the weight and size differences). With current technology EV has no chance to compete successfully. No major advantages, but many disadvantages (not only in terms of driving dynamics but also in terms of practicability) 

Leawood911:

Whoopsy:

Leawood911:

RC:

JR-550:

Interesting article, almost all Porsches Electric in 2020. Hard to believe!

https://electrek.co/2018/04/09/porsche-ceo-only-electric-vehicles-2030/

2030. 

This article is from before the Corona pandemic. I do not think that the 2030 time table is realistic but who knows?!

At least this change will be driven by competition and free markets and not so much by government regulations. Expect a much better outcome as a result and perhaps an even more aggressive timeline. 
Let’s face it. As soon as the electric versions of the Porsches leave the gas powered ones in dust in all categories it’s game over. They won’t be able to hobble the electric version ala Cayman gearing via the rest because other electric sports cars will eat their lunch.  Simple. Expect this move quickly in one direction. Don’t ask me why. 

 

If not for government regulations Porsche or VAG or anyone else wouldn't have done it.

Their current product mix IS what the market wants. They build cars based on WHAT the market wants. Market want some EVs? They make the Taycans. Market wants hybrids? They have hybrid sedans and SUVs. Market want sports cars? They make loads of 911s and Caymans and Boxsters. 

IF as you says it's driven by what the consumers wants, then no one will be buying ANY normal cars, all will be lining up to buy EVs. They are not. 

 

 

I did not buy my car due to regulations. I happened to drive one and could not stop. I predict there are others like me. That is all. My point is that it is better to transition because it is fun than because the government makes you get into a tiny golf cart.  Maybe we can agree on that 

But you are comparing to other cars in the segment (sedans etc.). Above, the question was if sportscars might all be EV in 10 years from now. In this case, we are talking about Taycan turbo vs 992 turbo etc. The EV is inferior in this category for the foreseeable future. Maybe this can change with completely new technology (something not in sight today) 

Leawood911:

nberry:

Mike, government can be good especially when it involves automobile regulation. There are a number of regulations that have saved hundreds of thousand of lives. You need to trust government more. 

You need to accept that positive change comes from the free market not from government regulations. Who is to say safety would not be improved upon more frequently with less regulations?  Why is it not better to have people drive EVs because they are fun, save,  lean and efficient rather than due to government regulations?  You are almost arguing that these regulations don’t make sense but we need to trust big government. In this case I actually think that the California mandate will have zero impact by then. It’s all good. 
 

Tell me why I want a 10 cent on the dollar outfit helping me in any way?  No thanks. The smaller the size of government the larger my freedoms. I’m okay with that. I kinda trust me more than government. Does that help?

The free market alone would not give EV a single chance. All EV sales today are driven by subsidies. Direct subsidies to buyers. And subsidies to Tesla for selling "emission rights". 

Nobody can beat EV performance, in a couple of years, we are going to see performance figures in regular cars which would fit a current super sportscar. I won't even start with those ultra hyper EV cars which will be available in a couple of years, I do not think that current sports cars will have even the slightest chance to beat them, especially in straight line performance.

Let's face it: EVs are probably the future in any possible car (and maybe even truck/bus) category but when it comes to emotional driving fun, our current ICE cars will be a completely different story here.

I just wonder what sense an ultra hyper EV sports car makes with 2000 hp, doing 0-200 kph (124 mph) in 5 seconds, when almost every country on this planet has a lower speed limit. Germany will follow, it is just a matter of time.

So in the end, our ICE fun cars will be the one people want...if they have the money to pay for gas.  

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

RC:

Let's face it: EVs are probably the future in any possible car (and maybe even truck/bus) category but when it comes to emotional driving fun, our current ICE cars will be a completely different story here.

we do not know what is the future yet. let's try to see where it goes.

I just wonder what sense an ultra hyper EV sports car makes with 2000 hp, doing 0-200 kph (124 mph) in 5 seconds, when almost every country on this planet has a lower speed limit. Germany will follow, it is just a matter of time.

same as a Veyron and 400+ km/h - status

So in the end, our ICE fun cars will be the one people want...if they have the money to pay for gas.  

or looking at the train history, ICE cars may sit in a showroom and/or museum and explain to the young ones how the past was...

GT Lover, Porsche fan

991.2 GT3 manual

Cayenne GTS 2014

MKSGR:

Leawood911:

nberry:

Mike, government can be good especially when it involves automobile regulation. There are a number of regulations that have saved hundreds of thousand of lives. You need to trust government more. 

You need to accept that positive change comes from the free market not from government regulations. Who is to say safety would not be improved upon more frequently with less regulations?  Why is it not better to have people drive EVs because they are fun, save,  lean and efficient rather than due to government regulations?  You are almost arguing that these regulations don’t make sense but we need to trust big government. In this case I actually think that the California mandate will have zero impact by then. It’s all good. 
 

Tell me why I want a 10 cent on the dollar outfit helping me in any way?  No thanks. The smaller the size of government the larger my freedoms. I’m okay with that. I kinda trust me more than government. Does that help?

The free market alone would not give EV a single chance. All EV sales today are driven by subsidies. Direct subsidies to buyers. And subsidies to Tesla for selling "emission rights". 

Great post in terms of its ability to illustrate how far off one can be.  I bet you could amuse the VW executives with it and maybe they would get one decent nights sleep out of it. 
I think the stock market is pretty much at odds with every one of these points. Tesla is now sold without any subsidies and zero advertising. They can’t make them fast enough to advertise.  I am a hardcore 911 driver.  For my entire life!  I have very quickly discovered that it is faster, more fun, safer, cheaper buy a ton and - since I love to drive - is opening up new driving adventures for me each day. I now go out and drive places I would never have. Including several runs to the Colorado mountains 600 miles away for weekends.   Charging for me is a total non issue and much simpler than filling up with gas. Every aspect is so much better than an ICE car I would never consider another one. Period.  I do not consider myself a fringe car owner. The electric charging capability which I enjoy at home is only being used by a tiny fraction of those who can. There are far more of us than there are EVs to buy right now.  Bottom line is there is nothing missing from the EV experience and very quickly you realize all the things the ICE cars do not have and can never do.  This is not even close. ICE has lost. I don’t blame you for loving your cars and I encourage it by all means but if you want to look at this financially you may want to invest accordingly. 
I do get that some less price competitive EV still will not sell without incentives but that is due to other EV choices not due to other ICE choices.  Porsche and Audi will need to focus a bit on price once there is more competition . The Model S was just lowered to $72 k here in the US. 
Hey, I like my Turbo to but RC is right. EVs will eat ICE cars for breakfast.  End of story. There will still be those of us who have and try to keep driving the ICE cars. Not certain we will be as accepted as horse owners are today. They did not get blamed for global warming back then.  

I agree with RS and Leawood EV will take over the market but ICE sports cars will always give the most driving fun. The problem is more; with ICE’s I am more afraid the that the "big mouth" minorities will create a negative public opinion and it will not be accepted anymore to drive rallies etc. with ICE’s. Perhaps I see the world to negative.

JR-550:

I agree with RS and Leawood EV will take over the market but ICE sports cars will always give the most driving fun. The problem is more; with ICE’s I am more afraid the that the "big mouth" minorities will create a negative public opinion and it will not be accepted anymore to drive rallies etc. with ICE’s. Perhaps I see the world to negative.

You could be right...or people realize how much they miss the "good old days" and they will accept such "minority" events. Look at classic cars events, they are often even accepted by ferocious "green" people.  

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

Mike

918 Spyder + Taycan Turbo + Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S P100D AP2 + BMWs (Z8 + 3.0 CSi) + Bentley Arnage T