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    Oct 13, 2004 3:37:37 PM

    Ferdie
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    Reply to: zzbobaA

    Re: Sale of 997 is not that good....

    Söhnke,

    a lot of true words but I don't share your opinon on the interior.

    The 986/996 interior is not typically Porsche, at least not for the Eleven! I know designers participating on that one and excusing the design with "management directives"...
    It grew on me as time went by but the 997 is much more Carrera-style in the interior than the 996! Just compare the protruding upper dashboard element, the airvents that are even positioned similiarly as on the 993 and share some lines with it, the bulge on the dashboard survace making a curve around the speedo cluster, even the door panesl - you cannot expect that the center console is similiar to the 993's! At least I wouldn't want that!

    What I didn't expect is the sudden move back to previous styling cues - looks like the marketing department had a lot to say in this case. Looks like too many cooks spoil the broth, doesn't it? Could result in the lack of emotions, as you mentioned.
    I do have the feeling that those emotions can easily come from a car-nut in the board, e.g. Bob Lutz, F. Piech, W. Reitzle & B. Pieschetsrieder...

    My 02 cents...

    Oct 13, 2004 3:48:01 PM

    Ron (Houston)M
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Sale of 997 is not that good....

    Quote:
    RC said:
    I just wish Porsche would have added more power to the 997 Carrera S, even 370 HP would have been more "attractive". Sad, they missed an opportunity to sell more cars, especially in the beginning.



    RC,
    Don't you think with the introduction of direct injection in near future 370hp would be a possibility with 997S MKII?

    Oct 13, 2004 5:20:10 PM

    Texas911
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    Reply to: Ron (Houston)M

    Re: Sale of 997 is not that good....

    You guys are all wrong, the only reason the 997 isn't selling well is because it has no spare!

    Oct 13, 2004 5:29:01 PM

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    Reply to: Lars997M

    Re: Sale of 997 is not that good....

    Quote:
    Lars996 said:
    I visitied my dealer yesterday. He told me that the 997 sale is not that good as required, as expected. He said, that lots of 996 clients are hesitant to go for a 997.

    If ordering a car now, you can get it like you want within 2 months. But he said, its also possible to get and stock car, as he has some already on stock, but also will get some more during the next couple of weeks.
    [Email]L@rs[/Email] [/quote
    ][Email]L@rs[/Email] [/quote ]

    The 997 was doomed to fail because as most have pointed out it is underpowered, not exciting to look at and overpriced. Factor in the horrible depreciation of Porsche's, the problem with the car is obvious.

    What is not being discussed is why did not Porsche see this coming? I will tell why; arrogance pure and simple. The thought that "we can sell anything we put in front of our customers so long as we market it right and say it is a PORSCHE". Do you realize that in a couple of years a 911 you buy may well be 1/2 Boxster?

    Make no mistake Porsche was embolden by the early success of the Cayenne (recall the outrage of its customers) and concluded if we can sell a truck/suv, we can sell anything regardless of value, appearance and price.

    I predicted the 997 was doomed and I will predict the Cayenne future sales will fall off substantially. The novelty of owning a Porsche truck/suv has worn off on many buyers and the reality of reliability issues along with price has sunk in. My 1 1/2 year old Cayenne is worth about 1/2 of the MSRP I paid for it ( btw I must me one of the very few who paid MSRP )

    Will Porsche survive? If they return to what they made them special. Uniqueness, singlemindedness regarding customer value and sensitivity to ever changing buyer desires. Porsche made a ton of money over the past several years and in doing so squandered the goodwill of not only its customer base but the general buying public. They have a lot to make up for.

    Oct 13, 2004 5:43:52 PM

    Ferdie
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: Sale of 997 is not that good....

    This will probably be the ABSOLUTELY ONLY time that I might agree with a few of Nick's arguments!

    Oct 13, 2004 5:43:53 PM

    SoCalHoosier
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    Reply to: vtrader

    Re: Sale of 997 is not that good....

    SPECIAL: 2005 997S Coupe

    Black
    Black Full Leather
    Adaptive Sport Seats
    Self Dimming Mirrors
    Heated Front Seats
    Ceramic Brakes-PCCB
    Sport Crono Package
    Navigation
    Bose High End Sound Package
    MSRP $99,300
    Sale Price $94,300!

    HENDRICK PORSCHE

    Oct 13, 2004 5:51:40 PM

    racerx
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    Reply to: Texas911

    Re: Sale of 997 is not that good....

    Some comments from a 911 outsider (i have driven a few though)

    The 997 is the most luxurious 911 yet. Fit and finish and thoughtfulness of the total package is the best ever. But the one glaring problem is what all of you are mentioning - HP.

    The 911 was always similiar to the baby ferrari. But as mentioned already that gap is getting too big. 480 to 355. That is just huge. The 997S should be at 425 now. Better than the mass produced american C6, mustangs etc. and able to hold its owm against the 430. I would tend to bet that if the power was in that range there would be longer lines at the dealers despite little complaints about retro this and that. Plus more attention to exhaust note. (Not a tough job)

    Is porsche finding a limit to the 6 cylinder format in NA form?

    As to depreciation don't all cars in that price range take huge hits? Like the merc sedans. Just a fact of life. Can somebody say if the 911 line has become pricier in steady dollar terms adjusting for inflation?

    Lets hope the 4th model will learn from these discussions.

    Tom

    Oct 13, 2004 6:02:12 PM

    Guy
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: Sale of 997 is not that good....

    Well I'll sum it up easily:

    I walked into my Dealer showroom last weekend thats was packed full of 911s and Cayennes (it's a big showroom with probably 15-20 cars in it). I walked up to the desk and asked if they had any 997s to look at. The Receptionist, who knows me well, smiled sweetly and said, "Yes, you've just walked past it"...........

    On closer examination, the new headlights gave it away - thats it..........

    Oct 13, 2004 6:10:07 PM

    SoCalHoosier
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    Reply to: racerx

    Re: Sale of 997 is not that good....

    I think you're comparing cars that aren't in the same class. Compare the performance and output of the TT X50 with that of the baby Ferrari. The X50 blows it away.

    This will proabably not be so true against the F430 unless Porsche decides that they need to actually IMPROVE their cars rather than redisguising them.

    I also think that the simple change of having the 355HP output of the S for the standard Carrera would've done wonders for sales. The S should've been in the region of 380HP+. The last alternative should've been dropping the price to where they weren't gouging us for a bad upgrade (downgrade to some).

    Oct 13, 2004 7:55:53 PM

    TEE
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    Reply to: Guy

    Re: Sale of 997 is not that good....

    Quote:
    Guy said:
    Well I'll sum it up easily:
    I walked up to the desk and asked if they had any 997s to look at. The Receptionist, who knows me well, smiled sweetly and said, "Yes, you've just walked past it"...........

    On closer examination, the new headlights gave it away - thats it..........



    Sounds like you know your Porsche's...

    Oct 13, 2004 8:14:22 PM

    vtrader
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    Reply to: SoCalHoosier

    Re: Sale of 997 is not that good....

    Quote:
    SoCalHoosier said:

    MSRP $99,300
    Sale Price $94,300!

    HENDRICK PORSCHE


    I think we have talked about the dealer in a previous thread. One small dealer in a small market does not mean that the sky is falling. If dealers in California start discounting and have a large supply of 997s, then there is a problem. That car the dealer is selling, most dealers in California sold that car the first few days after the introduction. I know of one dealer who sold that same car for $10K over MSRP to a Hollywood actor.

    Oct 13, 2004 8:20:27 PM

    SoCalHoosier
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    Reply to: vtrader

    Re: Sale of 997 is not that good....

    No one said the sky is falling...
    You don't need to get so touchy if you've already purchased said vehicle... be happy with your purchase. My gripes are aimed at Porsche for not giving the 996 owners (myself included) something to look forward to replacing their cars with.

    BTW the small markets you mention add up to big sales down the road. Don't be delusional and think that anyone else in America would pay what we Californians pay to "be first". Just a year ago most SoCal BMW dealerships wanted anywhere between 5-10K over MSRP for a brand new M3. Just talking with dealerships here and there and I was able to talk them below MSRP within a week. The same can be said for Porsche.

    Oct 13, 2004 8:50:21 PM

    Sydney
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    Re: Sale of 997 is not that good....

    RC and others-thanks for the great and honest comments. I'll just add mine to the mix, as a turbo owner and long time Porsche buyer/owner.

    For me, I will definitely buy a new 997 Turbo when it comes out, because my pattern with new Porsches is about 5 years (I drive a 2001TT, and love it). I just know the new car will be a significant improvement, even if it doesn't have HP that compares to other marques at the time. A 500 plus HP Mercedes or Lambo has too many other disadvantages for me, and I seriously doubt I would cross over. I also know that I can tweak the new TT and get equal or better HP than the competition.

    Where does the 997 Carrera fit into this? Indirectly but importantly. I won't buy the 997, but that's because I am addicted to the turbo power. But I am so intrigued by the advancements in the 997 that I know the Turbo will build upon real change in engineering and style. So I guess I could say that the 997 is a great teaser for me as a prospective new turbo buyer. I am in the groove to buy, so to speak.

    And finally, I suspect Porsche marketers know folks like me are in a five year cycle, that we are teased by new base level cars with their advancements, and that--over the typical market run of coupes, cabs, GT3s, 4Ss, turbos, GT2s, and turbo cabs--excitement and buying across the different classes will build so that all models contribute to the purchase of other models (someone who is excited by the GT3, may settle for an S, for example). Of course, economic conditions are important--if most of the above model cycle falls within a recession, nothing will build to any significance.

    Oct 13, 2004 9:00:33 PM

    PS CA Offline
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    Re: Sale of 997 is not that good....

    I am a little confused. I can remember when many folks here traded from early 996's to later 996's because of the different headlights, front & back ends, improved radio and a larger engine. Even if the appearance of the 997 isn't a radical change from the 996 it seems that there are certainly more changes from the latest 996 to the 997 than there ever was from one year to the next within the 996 years. In the past I have had conversations with many newer 996 owners who wondered way I hadn't traded my '99 in for a newer/improved 996. I was holding out for a significant change. The 997 is a significant enough change for me to make the move to a new cab. Maybe the 997 change isn't significant enough for owners of later 996's to take a hit and buy one, but within the world of the 911 it is significantly changed. Looking back at the history of the 911, it has been unique in the lack of changes over the years. From 1965 to the late 80's it was basically the same car with some minor changes to the exterior such as bumpers, fender flares, etc (and the engines keep getting larger). The interior basically remained unchanged from '65 to 1998.

    In terms of horsepower, the 911 has never been a leader. I would guess that the Corvette has always had more HP. Is there a year that the 911 had more HP than the Vette? Haven't there been many years where some of the pony cars and others like the Pontiac GTO had more HP than the 911? This is nothing new.

    Having said all that, I too wish they had many some other changes. I think that the standard 911 should have had 340+ HP. A 380 HP S would be real exciting. For me going from a 3.4L 296HP 996 to a 3.8L 355HP 997S will be a substantial improvement.

    Phil

    Oct 13, 2004 9:27:46 PM

    Holminator
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    Reply to: vtrader

    Re: Sale of 997 is not that good....

    North Carolina

    Oct 13, 2004 9:57:32 PM

    vtrader
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    Reply to: Holminator

    Re: Sale of 997 is not that good....

    Quote:
    Holminator said:
    North Carolina



    See the previous post.

    Oct 13, 2004 10:00:39 PM

    alin330
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    Reply to: Guy

    Re: Sale of 997 is not that good....

    I don't think Porsche, as a company understands as time change the market change, people change, standard/benchmark change. What was good enough improvement in the old days (5 to 30 HP gain with added weight) may not be good enough in today's market?

    As Porsche has never been a HP leader may be ok for yesterday's buyer but may or may not be acceptable for today's buyer. Even if being a HP leader is not a must for sports car buyer today. But I'm sure by offering the smallest of HP in its class is not going to be Attractive either.

    Oct 13, 2004 10:02:09 PM

    vtrader
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    Reply to: PS CA

    Re: Sale of 997 is not that good....

    Quote:
    PStotts said:
    I am a little confused. ...



    Wasn't it Lincoln who said:
    You can please some of the people some of the time but you can not please all the people all of the time.

    Oct 13, 2004 10:54:13 PM

    FutchM
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    Reply to: Ron (Houston)M

    Re: Sale of 997 is not that good....

    The MK2 versions always have more power Ron.
    It'll be interesting.
    I agree with RC with the options.
    Porsche opens a can of worms, especially regarding the fabulous sport exhaust.
    It's on the option list but available before several months, I mean what the f...!!!
    If it's not available, then DON"T put it on the list!
    Test driving a Maser Gransport, totally different product but interstering nonetheless and certainly a car potential 997 buyers will look at too. plus it's cheaper than the 997S.
    And when the MK2 will be out, so will be the AMV8.
    The 997 is a fantastic car, but for sports car real drivers and we all know that those guys represent about 10% of sports cars clientele, well, all of us, except Porsche maybe...

    Oct 13, 2004 11:55:30 PM

    RCA
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    Reply to: racerx

    Re: Sale of 997 is not that good....

    Quote:
    racerx said:
    Some comments from a 911 outsider (i have driven a few though)

    The 997 is the most luxurious 911 yet. Fit and finish and thoughtfulness of the total package is the best ever. But the one glaring problem is what all of you are mentioning - HP.

    The 911 was always similiar to the baby ferrari. But as mentioned already that gap is getting too big. 480 to 355. That is just huge. The 997S should be at 425 now. Better than the mass produced american C6, mustangs etc. and able to hold its owm against the 430. I would tend to bet that if the power was in that range there would be longer lines at the dealers despite little complaints about retro this and that. Plus more attention to exhaust note. (Not a tough job)

    Is porsche finding a limit to the 6 cylinder format in NA form?

    As to depreciation don't all cars in that price range take huge hits? Like the merc sedans. Just a fact of life. Can somebody say if the 911 line has become pricier in steady dollar terms adjusting for inflation?

    Lets hope the 4th model will learn from these discussions.

    Tom



    The 911 Carrera never has been a direct competitor for the 360 Modena or vice versa. Look at the price tag and you understand. Surprisingly, the new 997 Carrera S has the same straight line performance as the 360 Modena for substantially less money. And track performance is worlds ahead, especially with the 20 mm chassis option.
    And even compared to the 360 Challenge Stradale, the 997 Carrera S with 20 mm option offers a pretty impressive track performance with 60 HP LESS!

    Some of you guys don't seem to understand one thing: the 997 Carrera and Carrera S are just "entry-level" 911.
    There will be a GT3 with aprox. 400 HP and a Turbo with aprox. 460-480 HP and this should be enough power to cope with the competition.

    Why do you guys always compare apples with oranges?
    The direct competitors (from a marketing point of view) for the 997 Carrera and Carrera S are the Mercedes SL500, the BMW 6series (not M6) and the Maserati Coupe.

    It is funny that people start to use now the same arguments regarding the 997 some other people were using when the 996 showed up, replacing the beloved 993.
    This actually means only one thing: it is the same "the old one was the better one bragging" which happens every time when Porsche puts a new 911 on the market.
    We talk again next year.

    Oct 14, 2004 7:06:19 AM

    robbo
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Sale of 997 is not that good....

    Thankyou RC for putting some perspective into this discussion,people are getting way too pessimistic on a car that is probably gonna be the best 911 to date What car can compete with the 997s for perfomance,handling,build quality and image for the same money?I live in the UK and over here the 997s is expected to retain 75% residual value after 3 years ,trust me that is about as good as one can expect on any car,let alone a Pounds70,000 car.(i lost more than that on a BMW330ci sport cab,which lists at half the price of 997s)As RC said people should compare apples with apples,so if you pessimists would rather buy a Bmw 6 series ,Merc SL,Maserati coupe then fine ,but i bet the residuals on these cars will not be any better than a Porsche 997s and will they offer the same driving experience

    Oct 14, 2004 7:13:24 AM

    Ferdie
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Sale of 997 is not that good....

    Quote:
    RC said:
    ...Why do you guys always compare apples with oranges?
    The direct competitors (from a marketing point of view) for the 997 Carrera and Carrera S are the Mercedes SL500, the BMW 6series (not M6) and the Maserati Coupe...



    RC,

    you're not completely serious on that one!

    This might be one part of the reason but I don't think you considered one of the above mentioned when shopping for your 997!

    Besides that I know a big number of people who used to justify the Carrera over a Ferrari because of its practicability. Face it, a lot of people are happy with a so-called entry-level 911 and want to receive something for their money. As I said, until the 996 /360 showed up this rivalry was possible and the case. With the introduction of the above mentioned cars it changed - even if more subjectively!

    The fact that you compare the 997 to the 360 is ridiculous since they are both from differing model generations!

    Oct 14, 2004 7:33:56 AM

    dhayek Offline
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    Reply to: Ferdie

    Re: Sale of 997 is not that good....

    i agree with rc ,i would have loved to have more hp in the997s ,but lets face it,the performance you get from this 355hp are exeptional,as well as the driving experience,the chassis,the interior etc..

    Oct 14, 2004 7:44:48 AM

    kauai_diver
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    Re: Sale of 997 is not that good....

    Another vote for RC. For the price the 997 is perhaps the funnest, most reliable, most luxurious (dare i say) sports car in its class. In theory since I don't own one yet!

    Oct 14, 2004 8:49:54 AM

    OAB
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    Re: Sale of 997 is not that good....

    I understand that the 997/997S are entry level cars, however, I can't use a GT3 as a daily driver. For me it is too focused. So powerwise there is nothing in between the 997S and the Turbo. This gap is too big.

    In addition, the so called entry level car (997S with some nice options) is Euro 105'. And now you compare that with a new M3 (V8), RS4 (V8), SLK55 or even an M5 which will offer equal or better performance (OK, maybe not around Hockenheim circuit) for substantially less money. I also believe that these cars will offer acceptable driving pleasure - not as good as a 997 but may be as good as an ordinary 996?

    If I have to pay a premium price for a 911, I also want premium performance. This equation does not work anymore because competition is moving faster than Porsche.

    Oct 14, 2004 9:04:03 AM

    turbolite
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    Re: Sale of 997 is not that good....

    Thanks for all your comments. I agree with much of what you said. as a 00 996TT driver I'd like to add two comments:

    I'd love to get the new turbo, the first reason why i probably wont do it is that its simply going to be too expensive. 140' Euro (probably more with PCCB and PDK), that's 300' pre tax or 600' good old Deutsch Mark, is pretty crazy. If on top you add the money you will loose in the first two years it becomes even worse. and living in this gloom and doom place called germany doesnt inspire me to do crazy things at all.
    Secondly, if a new Porsche should be taken into consideration I'd look at a gt3 with sequential shift. It's more fun on the racetrack beeing lighter and you cant brake the gears as just happened to my TT.
    Bottom line - call me a cheapo - there's a good chance I'll stick to my TT for some time to come. and I will ask bmw for a quote on buying the new m5 - it's no sportscar, agreed, but costs almost 40% less (86') and offers all the HP, the gimmicks and even more everyday usability than the TT.
    PS: no way I would get 997 S instead of my TT. It just lacks the punch, all other pros and cons apart. and again, over 100' is just far too much for that car.

    turbolite

    Oct 14, 2004 10:46:21 AM

    RCA
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    Reply to: Ferdie

    Re: Sale of 997 is not that good....

    Quote:
    Ferdie said:
    RC,

    you're not completely serious on that one!

    This might be one part of the reason but I don't think you considered one of the above mentioned when shopping for your 997!

    The fact that you compare the 997 to the 360 is ridiculous since they are both from differing model generations!



    Ferdie, I'm very serious about it because Porsche is serious about it. The mentioned cars are the targeted competitor group, believe it or not.

    The 360 Modena is from a different generation, right. But of course I can compare it to the 997 because it costs 40000 Euro more and has 45 HP more. And look what Ferrari, the F1 world champion made out of this car. I'm not impressed at all, not even if I look at the Challenge Stradale. Remove the Pirelli Corsas and put standard street tires on the Challenge Stradale and both cars, the 60 HP weaker 997 Carrera S with 20 mm chassis/PCCB and the "fabulous" Challenge Stradale would have the same track performance on the Nordschleife and in Hockenheim. Ridiculous.

    The main reason why I bought the 997 Carrera S with 20 mm chassis is FUN, not for straight line performance (which is still impressive for a 355 HP car).

    And to answer zzboba's claim that the 997 doesn't "touch his heart": Sönke, you own a 996 GT3 RS. If I would own this car, the 997 wouldn't touch my heart either.

    Oct 14, 2004 2:11:37 PM

    jomana123456
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    Re: Sale of 997 is not that good....

    Quote:
    RC said:

    The direct competitors (from a marketing point of view) for the 997 Carrera and Carrera S are the Mercedes SL500, the BMW 6series (not M6) and the Maserati Coupe.




    Thanks RC for mentioning the Maserati. What an amazing car! I had a chance to test drive it and I was blown away! The engine sound was unbelievable. The car was super fast.. The interior looked very modern but classy. Leather was everywhere (very bling-bling) I think only RR and Bentley offer the same high quality leather as a standard.Ferraricdid an amazing job with Maserati. The car received a complete make over from head to toe. The thing I didn't like is way they changed the back lights. I really miss the old ones!

    Why it's not selling that good? This I don't understand.


    I had a Maserati 228 bi-turbo. It was very nice, but I had to take it to the dealership almost every week but I don't think this will be a problem with the new ones.

    I'm really considering getting one especially after I got an amazing offer on a brand new 04-Spyder fully loaded. The only thing I'm worried about is daily usage??

    Oct 14, 2004 2:41:53 PM

    PS CA Offline
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Sale of 997 is not that good....

    For all of those disappointed with the fact that the 997 S only has 355 HP. Porshce sure seems to be able to get some great performance from a car with only 355 HP. To those of you disappointed with only 355 HP, is it because you can't brag you have 400 HP or because of the lack of performance?

    Car and Driver Magazine tested the 997 S in their November edition. They also had a "Super Cars Slugfest" in which they tested supertuner cars against each other. I found the 0-60 MPH figures to be interesting.

    I will list each by car/cost/HP/0-60 times

    Porsche 911S/$79,895/355HP/4.1 Sec
    Hennessey Venom Twin Trubo SRT-10/$160,804/800HP/3.7 Sec
    Ligenfelter 427 Twin Turbo Corvette/$141,429/800HP/4.2 Sec
    RSI SR Twin Turbo Viper SRT-10/$136,745/800HP/4.1 Sec
    MTI Z07 Corvette/$96,385/625HP/4.1 Sec
    Evotech Gallardo/$195,931/545HP/4.8 Sec
    Renntech SL600/$163,106/640HP/3.9 Sec
    Kleeman 55K3/$163,273/630HP/4.1 Sec
    Superperformance Brock Coupe/$85,780/505HP/4.2 Sec

    So, the little "underpowered" 997 S @ $79,895 keeps up with cars that average the following: Average cost $142,8078, Average HP 668, Average 0-60 time 4.14. So I guess you can say the 997 S is "just average".

    I know the 0 to 60 times are just one measurement of a cars performance, but here in the USA it is about the only measure of performance that we can actually experience. By the way the Supercars did the 1/4 mile in an average of 12.1 seconds and it did take the lowly 997 S 12.5 seconds. It is hard to keep up over a that distance with cars averaging 668 HP.

    Oct 14, 2004 2:49:34 PM

    OAB
    Co-Pilot
    OAB
    Loc: Germany , Germany
    Posts: 155, Gallery
    Registered on: Jan 16, 2003
    Reply to: PS CA

    Re: Sale of 997 is not that good....

    I don't believe that they tested a 997S. The numbers sound more like a 996TTS.
     
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