Crown

Remember turns on the autobahn are in general graded for 200 so it is very civilised. Not like the mess in the US with no lane discipline, overtaking on the right, randomly set curves and in general horrible state of the roads... no offence but the road system in the US worked well for 200m people and since then has never been invested in. Almost third world actually... 

CGX car nut:

While we are all passionate about our favorite marques, EV evangelists, especially those with Teslas, exhibit a very unique form of religious fervor.  Several of these posting left me to virtually pound my head against the wall.  

My family has been driving Teslas for a decade.  Yup, ... 10 years.  They keep getting better.

I'm sure I'll trade my Panamera hybrid for a Taycan when it's available.  Electric cars for daily drivers are very nice and until one has lived with them for a while, their attractions are more difficult to appreciate. 

Satisfied owners may be evangelic fan boys, but that's the measure of commercial success.  It's not theory, it's practice.

Mike

918 Spyder + 991.2 GT2 RS +Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S P100D AP2 + Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T

SciFrog:

Well these posts leave me rather amused.

So I am reading that in Germany, everyone, everywhere, drives fast (ie around 160-180+?) not to get bored, and here in the context of people going in vacation, probably with family, kids and luggages. That is pretty amusing.

Still amused that one would believe that most hotels have parking attendants.  If EVs are ever to gain acceptance, the bulk of the market are then folks with middle-class incomes, who seldom travel to five star resorts and hotels.  

BTW 180 - 200 kph is not that fast. You only think it is fast when you drive around at 70mph... on crappy roads...

The great disaster of the US is the lack of basic infrastructure investment... 

996FourEss:

BTW 180 - 200 kph is not that fast. You only think it is fast when you drive around at 70mph... on crappy roads...

The great disaster of the US is the lack of basic infrastructure investment... 

 

Actually, the States have substantial investment in infrastructure which is often misapplied.  Roughly 10-15% of a project’s cost is for environmental studies, even on existing roadways.  Union labor is a given and much of the union dues are recycled into the politicians’ pockets.  Reducing this indirect costs would dramatically improve our infrastructure stock. 

Pure electrics are a really nice fit for daily driver, commuting.  But they are a poor fit for long, highway drives especially if the drive does not terminate at one's own garage where "refueling" is guaranteed.  To assert otherwise is delusional.

DaveChapin:

Pure electrics are a really nice fit for daily driver, commuting.  But they are a poor fit for long, highway drives especially if the drive does not terminate at one's own garage where "refueling" is guaranteed.  To assert otherwise is delusional.

 

You hit the nail on the head.

Gasoline/diesel powered cars are a jack of all trades, it do well in every situations, be it round trip to somewhere or one way longer journeys. Or just short distance city driving.

Electric car was designed to primarily as a short distance city commuter, or trips with end points having charging infrastructure. It does fit that design criteria very very well. But it's not a jack of all trades like a fossil fuel powered car.

Entered the hybrid. It has the advantages of both world but none of the shortcomings. On one had it can do clean city driving with zero local emission, it can also be used as pure EV car that required charging. At the same time, for long trips with questionable charging infrastructures at either end, it can function as a fossil fuel powered car with ease of fuelling and no costly wait times.

The EV camp keep arguing that technology will advance enough that a EV car can last longer between charges with more efficient motor and longer lasting batteries. They keep forgetting that a hybrid also has those EV parts and can benefits from those technology advances at the same time.

Nick, hybrid is good compromise for now but still has only 30kms in full EV range. Even if future hybrid will get more advanced batteries, they will go to 50, 60, 100? Means the full EV will have double or triple range as well as the EV carries much more batteries than hybrid. 

Yesterday in Paris, they announce the restriction for cars with clean tag above 3...for 1 week because of forecasted weather. Government are pushing into that direction. Ads are starting now on TV for EV cars. The ICE banning in cities is very close. 

GT Lover, Porsche fan

991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

Cayenne GTS 2014

the-missile:

Nick, hybrid is good compromise for now but still has only 30kms in full EV range. Even if future hybrid will get more advanced batteries, they will go to 50, 60, 100? Means the full EV will have double or triple range as well as the EV carries much more batteries than hybrid. 

Yesterday in Paris, they announce the restriction for cars with clean tag above 3...for 1 week because of forecasted weather. Government are pushing into that direction. Ads are starting now on TV for EV cars. The ICE banning in cities is very close. 

For cities with congestion charges or clean zones, how big is that area? 30-40km range is fully sufficient for driving inside those territories. And as EV proponents claimed, there are plenty of charge spots inside cities that can charge up the batteries while someone is in the office or at a lunch spot. 

Once someone escape those zones, the EV part of the car is not needed.

Say someone lives in New Jersey and works in Manhattan, and say Manhattan is a 'clean' zone. They drive from home on the gas engine, the nonce they crossed the bridge he switched the car to EV mode. Manhattan is 20km top to bottom, 30-40km range is plenty enough to go from one end to the other. 

SciFrog:

Well these posts leave me rather amused.

So I am reading that in Germany, everyone, everywhere, drives fast (ie around 160-180+?) not to get bored, and here in the context of people going in vacation, probably with family, kids and luggages. That is pretty amusing.

Not everybody of course. But certainly all Teslas. Whenever I see one they cruise at around 120kph. I assume to save some battery power.

996FourEss:

In Germany, on the autobahn, with family, I drive at 180 and sometimes over 200... perfectly safe with lane discipline and  a great way to cover distance. Nothing dangerous with that as long as you are focussed. Alone I push it. Only issue is with bumps and then you don’t really want To be  over 250. 

Exactly my driving style as well. Over 250 is not something needed on a daily basis but between 170 and 250 is just perfect for long distance cruises as well 

W8MM:

CGX car nut:

While we are all passionate about our favorite marques, EV evangelists, especially those with Teslas, exhibit a very unique form of religious fervor.  Several of these posting left me to virtually pound my head against the wall.  

My family has been driving Teslas for a decade.  Yup, ... 10 years.  They keep getting better.

I'm sure I'll trade my Panamera hybrid for a Taycan when it's available.  Electric cars for daily drivers are very nice and until one has lived with them for a while, their attractions are more difficult to appreciate. 

Satisfied owners may be evangelic fan boys, but that's the measure of commercial success.  It's not theory, it's practice.

I am also excited to test drive the Taycan. Might be an interesting product 

DaveChapin:

Pure electrics are a really nice fit for daily driver, commuting.  But they are a poor fit for long, highway drives especially if the drive does not terminate at one's own garage where "refueling" is guaranteed.  To assert otherwise is delusional.

 

That is exactly the problem I see as well 

Top Gear TV ep2, s27: Tesla Model 3 drag race vs rivals...

Video Link:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXquGvwzcxE

Top Gear Link:  https://www.topgear.com/videos/top-gear-tv/tg-tv-ep2-s27-tesla-model-3-drag-race-vs-rivals

"From episode 2 of Top Gear TV series 27: the new Tesla Model 3 takes on its biggest rivals in a drag race. Enter the Mercedes-AMG C63 S, Alfa Giulia Quadrifoglio and the BMW M3..."

My wife is the prototype of the ideal EV user. We are living in the center of Munich. Very short (4km) way to the office (public transport or even better short ride through the English Garden park with the bicycle), because it’s faster and there is no possibility to park the car. But she needs a car because the horse is located a little bit outside the city (10km one way) without any public transport nearby. She really likes the BMW i3. We have two slots in two different parking lots nearby our apartment. And that’s the problem: both are not prepared to integrate a charger. One of the garages is less than 20 years old, the other was build in the 90th. It’s not a financial problem, it’s a technical problem, power supply is too weak.

If you have infrastructure problems like this you will never increase the number of EVs. Even a hybrid (I though about a Panamera Turbo hybrid) is useless with this kind of infrastructure.

with a EV to the horse - love it

MKSGR:

SciFrog:

Plenty of people do long trips with Teslas. You just don’t get, you will eventually. And again, Europe will be 5 to 10 years behind the US anyway. Actually I am at the point that if I had to do a medium trip (long trip I would fly...), I would actually take the X and not the RRS. It is just that much more convenient. The whole package makes it more than worth the small amount of time you might loose. You will get to your destination much more relaxed and less stressed, and so will your wife and your family. It is a no brainer. Battery prediction is so good range anxiety is not an issue unless you cut it real close. I did not want to believe it, but now I do completely. Planning your trip on the car computer is a breeze. It tells you where the super chargers are, and if they are free!

People just have to rethink a bit and create a couple of new neural pathways to understand how it works.

What a nonsense, sorry. To drive from Norway to Italy you pass through Germany. Only fools and people of high age will enjoy this with a Tesla that will be driven at 120/130 to get a reasonable range. 

We drive twice a year to Lake Garda (around 450 km one trip) in our car, sometimes to the Cote d'Azur (850 km one trip). Even have been to other much farer places in the car. Don't understand why this is a problem??? I enjoy these family trips, sometimes with one car, sometimes with two but it is always fun (unless there is too much traffic, like on our way back to Germany from Italy).

We did over 3000(!) km last summer in the US...at the US speed limit. No problem, kids and wife loved it. Road trips, they are so much fun. 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

Itsme:

My wife is the prototype of the ideal EV user. We are living in the center of Munich. Very short (4km) way to the office (public transport or even better short ride through the English Garden park with the bicycle), because it’s faster and there is no possibility to park the car. But she needs a car because the horse is located a little bit outside the city (10km one way) without any public transport nearby. She really likes the BMW i3. We have two slots in two different parking lots nearby our apartment. And that’s the problem: both are not prepared to integrate a charger. One of the garages is less than 20 years old, the other was build in the 90th. It’s not a financial problem, it’s a technical problem, power supply is too weak.

If you have infrastructure problems like this you will never increase the number of EVs. Even a hybrid (I though about a Panamera Turbo hybrid) is useless with this kind of infrastructure.

Agreed. I see two major problems in Germany with EVs: Infrastructure and incentives. As long as there is no real charging infrastructure and as long as EVs are expensive (vs. combustion engine models), nothing will change.

Also, slowly but steadily, I get the feeling that people started to understand that EVs are not the climate change holy grail.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

The funny thing is that we can see four public chargers from our apartment. Most of the time al least one of them is free while all the normal public parking lots are hard to get. So an EV could be a alternative to taxi or public transport while moving in Munich. But you are only allowed to park 4h while charging. I don’t want to charge my car and then move it to my garage, idiotic

And yes, EVs are not the holy grail of climate change. But they reduce noise (I have a R8 in my neighborhood, I don’t know how often I wake up when he comes back in the middle of the night, I or someone else will probably murder him in the future) and dirt in the cities. I don’t need 500HP (not even 300HP) for city driving. 6km one way to the office. Sometimes I run after work back home, max. 5min slower than by car, 10min slower than public transport, the car is completely useless in the city if you don’t have to transport something.

For longer distances EVs wouldn’t be my choice

That R8 neighbor who comes back in the night is an idiot. He could easily press a button and reduce sound. Why don't you talk to him (friendly)? 

My nosiest neighbor just asked me last weekend why he can barely hear my car, if there is something wrong with it?  I told him that I use a quiet mode in the neighborhood and he looked at me very surprised, he didn't even know there is such a thing. "Make it louder, otherwise people will think this is not a Lamborghini..." was his response, which quite surprised me. Of course I don't listen to him but it shows that it makes a difference if you don't provoke people.

So much positive feedback with the car so far, it is absolutely unbelievable. 

Even more surprising: In Italy, those who reacted positively to my car were actually...non-Italians.  So many thumbs up but apparently from tourists. Italians? They cut me off, passed me at often at excessive speeds in very dangerous ways, very bad experience. It seems that Italians either don't like Lamborghini or they felt provoke.  Some Italians were shouting "Lamborghini" and "bella macchina" but not many (a few of the hotel employees and maybe some younger people along the road.

Funniest experience: An Alfa Romeo Stelvio with German license plates stopped next to my Performante while I was taking photos with my daughter around a lake in the mountains. There was a small boy (maybe 8 or 9 years old) in the car, he was wearing a Ferrari t-shirt. His father told him: "Look, a Lamborghini, let's go there and look at it...". The son answered: "No, its not a Ferrari". My daughter started laughing but I have to admit that I felt a little bit bad. Kids... 

Oh, also perfect pick-up car for women: So many smiling faces, including two very obvious offers, my wife wasn't too pleased. Especially Scandinavian and German young women seem to love fast cars.   

Back to topic: For your kind of commute in the city, maybe one of these new electric scooters would be a better choice? I bought one before our Italy trip, my kids, me and my wife rode with it in Italy and it was really fun. I bought one which can be retrofitted to street legal specs, need to send it back to the manufacturer next week and I get the street legal version.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

According to sources, Tesla's head of production in charge of all vehicle manufacturing at Fremont factory, Peter Hochholdinger (ex - Audi) has left the company...

R8: I don’t live in an area with detached houses, I don’t know where this first-gear specialist lives

E-Scooter: Too slow on the bicycle lane, too fast for the sidewalk. Monday someone already touch me on the sidewalk. Not enough space between the tables of the café and me. I prefer walking or the bicycle. And I am lucky, less than a minute after leaving the door I can enter the subway (both home and office).

RC:

Back to topic: For your kind of commute in the city, maybe one of these new electric scooters would be a better choice? I bought one before our Italy trip, my kids, me and my wife rode with it in Italy and it was really fun. I bought one which can be retrofitted to street legal specs, need to send it back to the manufacturer next week and I get the street legal version.

I bought my daughter one last year, the xiaomi one, fun for her to play around with like accompanying me with it when I go for a run outside, but seriously, as a grown up man I would be embarrassed to ride one for transport  they look ridiculous...

They are also becoming a problem I'm cities, they are a danger for pedestrians in the sidewalks (many cities don't allow it anymore) and they are to show and unstable for mixing with traffic on the street, only for bicycle lanes, and then they can be a nuisance for cyclists.

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

Boxster Coupe GTS:

According to sources, Tesla's head of production in charge of all vehicle manufacturing at Fremont factory, Peter Hochholdinger (ex - Audi) has left the company...

Surprised it took this long.   JB Staubel is believed to have left the company too as few have seen him over the past six months.  

The next tesla S long range will have over or around 430 miles highway range at 65-70mph. How much more does anyone really need? 

25 miles of EV range is nowhere near enough for city driving. Hybrids will slowly but surely fade away eventually except for some specific applications, the pure EV tech is simply advancing too fast. Tesla roadster is specced to have over 600 miles of highway range.

CGX car nut:

Boxster Coupe GTS:

According to sources, Tesla's head of production in charge of all vehicle manufacturing at Fremont factory, Peter Hochholdinger (ex - Audi) has left the company...

Surprised it took this long.   JB Staubel is believed to have left the company too as few have seen him over the past six months.  

JB Straubel has not left the company. He was on stage at the shareholder meeting two weeks ago.

And regarding Hochholdinger, who says that it is negative for Tesla that he left? Maybe he didn't deliver and were stuck in old processes and and thinking from Audi?

Some very narrow minded people we have here... But they are smart, so some have an agenda is the simplest and most logical explanation. The others are simply not in the target enveloppe of what an EV can do today, but a sporty hybrid is. But this is a niche group, albeit over represented here for obvious reasons. 

The fact that they try to apply their niche behavior to an entire population is similar to not seeing the forest behind the tree.

There are plenty of arguments against a fast shift of the auto industry to pure EV. The main one is charging infrastructure, especially in Europe, and the second is the selling price of the EV cars, which will also affect more Europe. High speed autobahn driving is a completely marginal thing in the world, and even in Germany plenty of people (the majority?) drive below 150kph even when unrestricted, and unrestricted roads are only a portion of the highways. Charging in rural areas and small towns will be an issue for a while, and in small hotels.

Range anxiety is just a problem of education in areas where there are superchargers.

lukestern:

CGX car nut:

Boxster Coupe GTS:

According to sources, Tesla's head of production in charge of all vehicle manufacturing at Fremont factory, Peter Hochholdinger (ex - Audi) has left the company...

Surprised it took this long.   JB Staubel is believed to have left the company too as few have seen him over the past six months.  

JB Straubel has not left the company. He was on stage at the shareholder meeting two weeks ago.

And regarding Hochholdinger, who says that it is negative for Tesla that he left? Maybe he didn't deliver and were stuck in old processes and and thinking from Audi?

Straubel is not there on a day-to-day basis according to many at the company.  That isn’t FUD, that is a fact.   He is no longer shaping the technology pathway of the company.   

Tesla would learn much by studying Audi’s manufacturing system as well as its innovative approaches to metal fabrication and toolmaking.  

They would. But in the meantime it does not matter. As a new car manufacturer, Tesla could not do everything perfect at once. They put the money in EV tech, efficiency, software and autopilot. And they are selling tons of cars and cornering the luxury market in a way that has created pain especially to Audi, BMW and Mercedes.

At some point they will catch up to the others. But for now their builds are more than good enough to sell. The minimalist interiors are unique and the no use of leather gives them an edge with some segments of the population as well as a cool vibe. You might want to ridule it or laugh, but that segment is larger than the sport car enthusiasts that are over represented here.

CGX car nut:

lukestern:

CGX car nut:

Boxster Coupe GTS:

According to sources, Tesla's head of production in charge of all vehicle manufacturing at Fremont factory, Peter Hochholdinger (ex - Audi) has left the company...

Surprised it took this long.   JB Staubel is believed to have left the company too as few have seen him over the past six months.  

JB Straubel has not left the company. He was on stage at the shareholder meeting two weeks ago.

And regarding Hochholdinger, who says that it is negative for Tesla that he left? Maybe he didn't deliver and were stuck in old processes and and thinking from Audi?

Straubel is not there on a day-to-day basis according to many at the company.  That isn’t FUD, that is a fact.   He is no longer shaping the technology pathway of the company.  

But you still said few has seen him the last 6 months, yet he was very much visible on the shareholder meeting. That is also a fact.

Tesla would learn much by studying Audi’s manufacturing system as well as its innovative approaches to metal fabrication and toolmaking.  

They have probably already taken advantage of his experience over the 2-3 years he has been with Tesla. My point is that his departure from the company isn't necessary a bad thing and might as well be something positive. Yet the media spinn is always negative if someone leave...