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    Condolence

    Every time I remember it, I get depressed.
    It really is depressing, and I don't know if I should tell you guys about it or not, so here is my story.

    To begin with, I am a porsche nut. I really do beleive when porsche advertises that there is no substitute, because there really isn't. I have always wanted one, and since the release of the turbo, I liked it to what it can do, very capable car, can be easily tuned but I felt it soft. Maybe soft is not the best word to describe this supercar, but it was definatly missing edge.
    It all started when my brother bought his GT3, I took it for a drive ... WOW! The engine is worth the asking price. Then there's the endles revving, the suspensions, the precision of the gear change, I could go on and on but you all now know what the GT3 is all about. I have yet to drive a car as the GT3. This is what I want, this is what I have been looking for. I don't want to change anything in the car, and I don't know anybody who would want to (I don't tune my cars anyway). Just a couple of days later I went to the same dealer to trade in my E46 M3, I like bmw's and the m power are good, but porche is playing in a different league. The M3 was supposed to be my second car and then I realised why would I want such a car, its entertaining with a nice engine too but heavy and more of a luxury than sport. With the GT3, you can have the daily car and you can have THE sports car. When you fall in love with a car, you create all kinds of excuses to own it.
    So I got the car, was really happy with it, but I had one problem with the car, I could not go slow in it. Everytime I in the GT3 and try to go slow, 5 minutes later I forget about it and just hear the engine scream, what a joy. This car was fast, hitting 200 km/h was a joke. I always wanted to go track the car to reveal the car's true potential.
    Until one day I had an accident. I was going too fast, and the lights went red .. I had no chance but to turn on at the lights, but at 220 km/h the car would feel reluctant to turn, after braking and the speed lost because of the serious drift I hit the pavement hard at about 180km/h. I woke up a couple of seconds later to see the road covered in oil, the suspension lying on the pavement, my glasses were on the other road, the windows broken.
    SH*T. This could not have been. What happened ? This must be a nightmare ..
    The car was kept at the dealer for a while, and after 10 days they came up with an estimate of $70,000. Basically, the car is totalled. They explained to me that the engine was hit. This could not have been. The insurance totalled the car, paid back my money ($5,000 very well spent).

    And since I have been very depressed. Most of you are furious, but to me, it could have been worse. I could have died. I am still injured, not seriously but my back hurts me even after 4 months since the accident. And what really hurts me is when I remember that the car had 800 km on the odometer. Not even 1000. That sux.
    I suck .. but I have learnt my lesson that speeding in the city is very dangerous and should be avoided. Its very hard in the GT3, but not as hard as missing it now.
    Its not about good / bad driver, or I don't know how to handle it, I consider my self above average driver and the idea of no PSM made me excited, its about speeding in the right places ie track.
    997 GT3 anyone ??

    Re: Condolence

    Quote:
    MSB said:
    [...] I consider my self above average driver [...]



    Like probably everybody on this forum.

    But... huh... 220 km/h in the city?... Glad you got out of it with only minor injuries. But I'm especially glad you didn't kill anyone else...

    --Pierre

    Re: Condolence

    If you were above average, you would have controlled the slide...

    I speed a lot, as many on this board do(even though, due to car diferences most of you speed more than me...). I don't know if I am above average. But I would never try to go through an intersection at 220 km/ hour.

    I am very happy you are OK, but I am sorry to say that what you did is completelly irresponsable. Please live and learn.

    Sports cars are about restraint, you need to know when to speed and when to be safe.

    I hope that this teaches people not to do these silly things.

    Again, I am very happy that neither you nor anyone is hurt, but realise that it could have been very easilly the other way around.

    All the best,

    Ricardo

    PS: There will be some very agressive replies to your action and to this post... Be ready...

    Re: Condolence

    I'm new on this forum. In fact it's my first post. Some of you may know me from flat-6.net as amazon.

    Anyway, I'm just confused with what I just read from MSB. To be honest I don't believe you. 220 km/h in the city? 180 to 200 km/h when the crash happened? That's just impossible. You'd be dead by now or more cars would have been involved in a crash like that in a city. And if you really crashed at that kind of speed, the car would be in 1000 pieces. A dealer would not need 10 days to tell you it's totalled. I could tell you that in 2 sec. There's no way a car can survive a 200km/h crash. At that kind of speed there's nothing left. I'm sorry.

    Its either that or your an irresponsible driver that should be behind bars. (I really mean it.) it's because of that kind of stupidity that people get killed. I'm not talking about you but others like parents driving their kids.

    You tell that story like your proud of it, you should be ashamed of yourself.

    Again, I'm sorry have to say this. But I have to.

    Re: Condolence

    Take it easy on the guy newbie.

    I consider my self an above average
    driver based on experience. Im only
    17 and amongst my peers i am one of
    the top drivers. Hopefully youve learned
    from your actions as did i.

    I dont speed unnecessarily anymore.
    I dont street race anymore.
    I take into consideration the drivers
    around me that are just trying to get
    somewhere.

    Take it to the track and keep it there.

    Re: Condolence

    Quote:
    amazon23 said:
    To be honest I don't believe you. 220 km/h in the city? 180 to 200 km/h when the crash happened? That's just impossible. You'd be dead by now or more cars would have been involved in a crash like that in a city. And if you really crashed at that kind of speed, the car would be in 1000 pieces. A dealer would not need 10 days to tell you it's totalled. I could tell you that in 2 sec. There's no way a car can survive a 200km/h crash. At that kind of speed there's nothing left.



    Amazon,

    While I pretty much agree with everything else you wrote, there is no way you can categorically say that a driver cannot survive a crash starting from 220 or 180 km/h without knowing anything about the nature of the crash. If the car was to crash into a concrete bridge or stone wall at those speeds, I would expect your assessment to be right, but - the way I read it - MSB's (??) post mentioned hitting the "pavement", meaning the sidewalk curb.

    If there was no hard object like a wall or tree beyond the curb for the car to bounce into, after losing some energy by taking off one or more wheels and maybe tearing out the power unit(leaked oil was also mentioned), it could result in the car's kinetic energy being wiped out "relatively" gradually by breaking the car's "hardware" while it was still moving. That way, the "software" inside the car would not be subjected to such high "g" forces as would otherwise have been the case.

    That kind of "accident" can be survivable even from that kind of speed, in the same way as a rollover in a car with a good crash structure can be more survivable than crashing into a hard object. It's the rate of deceleration which generally does the damage, not the speed per se.

    In another thread, MSB has mentioned that he might consider buying a GT2 as a replacement for his totalled GT3. I don't think he asked for others' opinions, but - my 2 cents - from my reading of his description of his accident, I really don't think he is ready for a GT2.

    Re: Condolence

    You are not dead and nether anybody else from as a result of this accident and thats the most improtant thing. I heard couple of times sales people in my dealership saying that if you buy GT2 or GT3 its a question of time when you gonna hurt yourself if you drive it a lot. I disagree with it completely. We al learn from mistakes, I drive TT with a lot of performance improvements so it has GT2 characteristics (at least that what people who drove GT2 and my car too said) and it takes time to learn and control the car, though I doubt that you can control Porsche 100% if you are not racing driver of course. Anyway here is the story for you, I was driving about 90kmh and couldnt control the car through the right apex/ sharp corner when I turned, so I hit the curb - nothing serious I thought first, but then I got the message PASM off drive to the service. So I did, the result was I bented the rear suspenion of the car and I had to replace it paying 10k usd. We all learn from our mistakes I hope

    Re: Condolence

    I read a survey saying 95% of drivers claim they are above average.

    Re: Condolence

    Quote:
    iia said:
    I read a survey saying 95% of drivers claim they are above average.



    For those who are suspicious, I don't want to tempt fate. But...

    How many participants are there now on Rennteam? I don't have the exact figure but I suspect quite a few. And how many of us have been killed or been involved in fatal accidents? To my knowledge, none. I think that there is a message there as relates to the level of risks and possibily the skills and driving abilities of the participants.

    Stephen

    Re: Condolence

    Quote:
    FixedWing said:
    Quote:
    iia said:
    I read a survey saying 95% of drivers claim they are above average.



    For those who are suspicious, I don't want to tempt fate. But...

    How many participants are there now on Rennteam? I don't have the exact figure but I suspect quite a few. And how many of us have been killed or been involved in fatal accidents? To my knowledge, none. I think that there is a message there as relates to the level of risks and possibily the skills and driving abilities of the participants.

    Stephen



    Don't know if fatal accident involvement is a particularly sensitive threshold to distinguish driving abilities/judgement. Would probably need to look at overall accident rate and circumstantial contexts to draw any preliminary conclusions....

    Re: Condolence

    When is was 20 and wanted to buy my first 911 carrera 2 my father didn't ask me if i had the money to buy it but he asked me if i had the maturity to own such a car...

    So be glad that an accident like this has been a real bargain for you.you din't injur yourself(not your back).you could have pass your life on a chair!you didn't kill anybody and so on...

    bottom line.

    If you think you've learned something from this experience
    buy whatever car you want.

    But you're the only one that knows how much you've learned...

    Re: Condolence

    Quote:
    How many participants are there now on Rennteam? I don't have the exact figure but I suspect quite a few.



    As of 10/9/04 there are 3,860 registered Rennteam members.

    Re: Condolence

    Quote:
    avedon said:
    bottom line.

    If you think you've learned something from this experience
    buy whatever car you want.




    And then keep taking your car to the track. First of all to test and improve your skills in a "safe place", but more important to take the risk away from innocent people.

    Drive safe. /Thomas

    Re: Condolence

    wherever you live, it must not be NYC, since its hard to get over 60km/h here.

    besides speeding should be reserved for highways and twisty backroads, speeding in the city is just a brazen attempt to show off, while putting everyone in danger.

    Re: Condolence

    Quote:
    GM Austin said:
    As of 10/9/04 there are 3,860 registered Rennteam members.



    I'd say that so many who are driving mostly higher performance cars and no known major incidents is a pretty good indicator of the general level of seriousness we collectively bring to this.

    Stephen

    Re: Condolence

    You were lucky you didn't kill anybody else and of course you were lucky that you didn't get killed yourself.

    Cars are no toys, even if some of us love to call them toys.
    A car is a dangerous piece of sophisticated machinery and some people seem to like to forget that.
    Of course you don't have to be as intelligent as a brain surgeon to learn how to operate a car but it takes a lot of intelligence and self control to learn the limits of yourself (not the car!) and then the limits of the car on the TRACK! Speeding in the city is the most stupid thing to do because it can kill innocent people who have nothing to do with this craziness. And even outside the city, people have to be aware that it is dangerous. Not because they lack good driving skills, even if a lot of people CAN'T actually drive but they think they can, but because other drivers out there don't expect cars to go that fast on a public street.

    Self control is very important. Just think of a GT3 as if it is a loaded gun which somebody put in your hands.

    We all love cars, we love them since we're kids and as soon as we can afford some nice toy, we go for it. But I wish we would invest as much passion and time in actually learning HOW to drive these toys.

    And before I sound like a school teacher: instead of investing thousands in faster cars, huge wings, engine tuning, coilover kits and special tires, we should actually invest some time and money in learning how to operate a car, especially a sports car.
    Many people spend a lot of money to go to the track. But how many people actually take driver education lessons on the track? And a last word: the track is not the street. People who are great on the track don't have to be great on the street. On the track you don't have to use your turn signal, you don't have to look in all directions all the time and you usually know what to expect from other drivers. And of course there is no danger of a little kid running over the street to catch a ball.

    "Good" driving starts with learning how to go by the rules. Somebody who drives like a jerk on the street by not using turn signals, ignoring other cars and playing little Schumi in the city, will be a jerk on the track too.

    Sorry to say that but driving starts with the brain, not the hands, feet, big cochones or a huge bank account.
    Whoever wants to become a "good" driver has to analyze his driving style all the time, like a built-in computer. And if you have the feeling you're too fast, YOU ARE indeed too fast, slow down. Work on yourself, learn your limitations and your weakness BEFORE you learn the same stuff about your car. Amen.

    Re: Condolence

    i find that on public roads with medium/high density traffic (not backroads) a large percentage of my attention must be used in predicting the mistakes and improper actions of the other drivers

    many of said drivers are complete idiots, housewives talkin on the phone, or people who are doing everything else BUT driving.

    Re: Condolence

    Quote:
    fritz said:

    Amazon,

    While I pretty much agree with everything else you wrote, there is no way you can categorically say that a driver cannot survive a crash starting from 220 or 180 km/h without knowing anything about the nature of the crash. If the car was to crash into a concrete bridge or stone wall at those speeds, I would expect your assessment to be right, but - the way I read it - MSB's (??) post mentioned hitting the "pavement", meaning the sidewalk curb.

    If there was no hard object like a wall or tree beyond the curb for the car to bounce into, after losing some energy by taking off one or more wheels and maybe tearing out the power unit(leaked oil was also mentioned), it could result in the car's kinetic energy being wiped out "relatively" gradually by breaking the car's "hardware" while it was still moving. That way, the "software" inside the car would not be subjected to such high "g" forces as would otherwise have been the case.

    That kind of "accident" can be survivable even from that kind of speed, in the same way as a rollover in a car with a good crash structure can be more survivable than crashing into a hard object. It's the rate of deceleration which generally does the damage, not the speed per se.

    In another thread, MSB has mentioned that he might consider buying a GT2 as a replacement for his totalled GT3. I don't think he asked for others' opinions, but - my 2 cents - from my reading of his description of his accident, I really don't think he is ready for a GT2.



    I see your point. Maybe it's possible. The fact of the matter is, if I have to choose between bullshit and the truth, I would had prefer bullshit.
    If that crash really happened and MSB really did what he said, that's pretty scary to see how people can be irresponsible and have absolutly no consideration what so ever for the others on the road.

    You say he's not ready for a GT2, I'd say he should'nt be allowed to drive.

    Re: Condolence

    Quote:
    amazon23 said:
    The fact of the matter is, if I have to choose between bullshit and the truth, I would had prefer bullshit.




    I don't think that came across the way you really meant it??


    Let it pass.

    Re: Condolence

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    amazon23 said:
    The fact of the matter is, if I have to choose between bullshit and the truth, I would had prefer bullshit.




    I don't think that came across the way you really meant it??


    Let it pass.



    I'm not sure to understand what you said.
    What i was saying by that is that I would prefer the story to be untrue because that kind of behaviour on the road kills people. I would prefer the story to be bullshit over that kind of stupidity (drivingat 200 in the city)

    Bottom line: Iwish that accident had never happen.

    Re: Condolence

    Amazon,
    Fritz was just joking about you saying that you "prefer bullshit" sarcasm is a little trait of his you'll learn to appreciate as you get familiar with the board

    Re: Condolence

    Quote:
    carlos fromspain said:
    Amazon,
    Fritz was just joking about you saying that you "prefer bullshit" sarcasm is a little trait of his you'll learn to appreciate as you get familiar with the board




    I get it now...Thanks
    I did not realized what I was saying.

    Re: Condolence

    BTW, I forgot, welcome here too Amazon

    Re: Condolence

    Quote:
    carlos fromspain said:
    Amazon,
    Fritz was just joking about you saying that you "prefer bullshit" sarcasm is a little trait of his you'll learn to appreciate as you get familiar with the board



    SARCASM! AGAIN! What's with you guys?

    Seriously though, in this instance no irony - and certainly no sarcasm - was intended on my part. I just didn't think that Amazon had meant his sentence the way I (and maybe some others?) had understood it at first reading.

    By the way, one of the things I personally like best about rennteam is the fact that the members obviously come from such diverse national, cultural and lingual backgrounds. This sometimes leads to misunderstandings, or even an (initial) lack of understanding for different viewpoints. Trying to get my head around the views expressed by others is one of the interesting parts of following the forum.

    By the way Amazon, welcome from me too.

    Re: Condolence

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    SARCASM! AGAIN! What's with you guys?



    There you go again see? you can't help it, face it its to dep in your nature Fritz, don't deny it

    Re: Condolence

    Quote:
    carlos fromspain said:
    Quote:
    fritz said:
    SARCASM! AGAIN! What's with you guys?



    There you go again see? you can't help it, face it its to dep in your nature Fritz, don't deny it



    Hey Carlos, you stick with your chosen branch of medicine and don't try to psychoanalyze me!

    Amateur psychology is MY hobby.

    Re: Condolence

    Thanks for the welcome. I'm going to try to be more active on this forum, wich is very good by the way.

    Carlos, I'll see you around on flat6.net too
    Fritz, nice to meet you

    Advanced driver training

    A couple of years ago I did some very good advanced road driving training. I found that it made me both a faster and slower driver. On open roads, track and motorways I am prepared to drive substantially faster than I did in the past and with much more confidence that I can handle the characteristics of a car at that speed (ie don't lift off too aggressively).

    It also slowed me down tremendously where there are hazards or potential hazards. The key lesson was driving at a speed appropriate for the conditions. In built up areas, intersections, low visibility and obscured road sections, I now find myself driving a lot slower than in the past. Always look ahead and assume that potential hazards could be realised.

    And in the post that started this thread - surely it was obvious that either the lights would change or a car would run a red and go through the intersection.

    We all like driving at 200km/h if we can. The ability to do safely is presumably a key aspect of porsche ownership. But I think knowing when that is appropriate and when it is not is a key determinant of whether you should own one.

    Re: Advanced driver training

    the same here

    Learning track driving for example made me much "slower" and thinking driver...

    Re: Condolence

    Quote:
    lev said:
    You are not dead and nether anybody else from as a result of this accident and thats the most improtant thing. I heard couple of times sales people in my dealership saying that if you buy GT2 or GT3 its a question of time when you gonna hurt yourself if you drive it a lot. I disagree with it completely. We al learn from mistakes, I drive TT with a lot of performance improvements so it has GT2 characteristics (at least that what people who drove GT2 and my car too said) and it takes time to learn and control the car, though I doubt that you can control Porsche 100% if you are not racing driver of course. Anyway here is the story for you, I was driving about 90kmh and couldnt control the car through the right apex/ sharp corner when I turned, so I hit the curb - nothing serious I thought first, but then I got the message PASM off drive to the service. So I did, the result was I bented the rear suspenion of the car and I had to replace it paying 10k usd. We all learn from our mistakes I hope



    Lev, sounds like you have a great vehicle there. However, do not be fooled, the GT2 is lighter and two wheel drive, and certainly for me ( I rate myself as average rather than above average) far harder to control. Around 25% of GT2's purchased within the UK are written off in the first year of ownership according to some magazines.

     
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