Crown

Bigger than I thought but the shape is certainly aerodynamically driven, 

Please don’t ban me for this 

We're at the point where you can be the fastest or just sound like you're the fastest.



The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

Looks good to me.  

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

Hahaha... 

Enmanuel:

Bigger than I thought but the shape is certainly aerodynamically driven, 

Please don’t ban me for this 

Must be the new government mandated pedestrian-safe bumpers 

18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

I believe there are still about 30 build slots available.

SSO.:

I believe there are still about 30 build slots available.

How many are you getting? 

Boxster Coupe GTS:

SSO.:

I believe there are still about 30 build slots available.

How many are you getting? 

Zero, cost is about 2x were I would be comfortable putting in an order.  Also you are putting a large investment basically into a company that's completely is reliant on one person, and no matter how brilliant that person is, he is in his 70s.  If something happens to him, the viability of the company is highly questionable.  Also if you look forward, what sort of support is there going to be for these cars 10-15 years from now?  When you look at the capitalization of GMA, its very light so the funding to develop and build the cars is basically coming from the depositors so if something happens to the company before your car gets delivered, good luck getting your money back.

I agree that the risks you mention are substantial, but I believe the upside totally warrants them (if I could afford even the deposit).

18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

Grant:

I agree that the risks you mention are substantial, but I believe the upside totally warrants them (if I could afford even the deposit).

I am with SSO on this.

There really isn't that big an upside if at all. His 'vision' is too aggressive.

Worse odds than playing roulette, and that's like the worse game in a casino already.

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Whoopsy:

There really isn't that big an upside if at all. His 'vision' is too aggressive.

Worse odds than playing roulette, and that's like the worse game in a casino already.

When I say "upside", I don't mean that in a financial context (though it'll possibly be a very valuable car in the future).

I mean it in the sense that it may be my favorite modern automobile ever produced and my desire to have one is extraordinarily strong.  Lightweight (1 metric ton), 12,100 rpm NA V12, Manual gearbox, stunning track performance and driver involvement may not be your "cup of tea", but they are without a doubt exactly "my shot of tequila" 

There is nothing else like it.  Yes, the vision is very aggressive but the result could be amazing if it meets these goals.

I certainly wouldn't risk my last dollar on this, but if I had enough to stomach the loss I would be in line (I actually discussed it with 2 friends to split 3-ways, but I couldn't even dream of spending 1/3).

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18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

Gordon Murray T.50’s V12 will rev to 12,100rpm

To most people, there’s not a great deal wrong with the McLaren F1, often cited as the greatest supercar ever. But for its creator, Gordon Murray, the F1’s engine doesn’t rev high enough and the throttle response could be better. Three decades on, he is in a position to do something about them with Gordon Murray Automotive’s first supercar, the T.50.

Ahead of the T.50’s public debut on 4th August, GMA has spilled the beans at last about the new car’s engine. It will be the world’s highest revving, fastest responding, most power dense, and lightest naturally-aspirated V12 road car engine ever. Coming from anyone other than Gordon Murray you’d be sceptical.

We already knew it was going to be a naturally-aspirated V12, developed as a bespoke unit with Cosworth, but now we have some figures to work with. Like 663PS (654bhp) at 11,500rpm and 467Nm of torque at 9,000rpm.

Its 3.9-litre capacity will deliver a specific power output of 168PS (166bhp) per litre, a record for a non-turbo road engine says GMA, and it will be safe to rev to a Formua 1-like 12,100rpm (the McLaren F1 was all through at 7,500rpm).

GMA has even put a figure on the engine’s responsiveness. It is 28,400 revs per second. That’s how fast this V12 can pick up revs, where the McLaren F1’s BMW-made V12 could manage only 10,000 revs a second. In practice, says GMA, the T.50’s V12 can go from zero rpm to the 12,100rpm redline in three tenths of a second.

And if you thought that torque peak might make the car undrivable in normal traffic, think again, says Murray. Seventy per cent of maximum pulling power is available from 2,500rpm.

There’s no number put on the sound this V12 makes, just another “world’s best” promise that among road cars it will be right up at the top. Like the F1 before it, induction noise from the ram-air inlet in the car’s roof is piped direct into the cabin, so the car stays hushed on part throttle but gets very angry when you press down on what will most definitely be the loud pedal.

“You can never get a great sound from a turbocharged engine,” Murray tells us. “The T.50 engine sound is going to be phenomenal. As you push towards the upper end of the rev range the V12 will sing like nothing else on the road.”

Another thing the engine has to do: look good. The designer says he is taking a leaf from the McLaren F1 book and showing off the V12 in all its naked glory as an antidote to too many messy and half-hidden supercar engines. So there are no carbon or plastic covers or belt-driven ancillaries (everything in the engine is gear-driven) to spoil the show, and to ensure a good view, the V12 is visible beneath twin rear panels which hinge open from the car’s spine, gullwing fashion.

The engine, mated to a bespoke six-speed manual ‘box from Xtrac and driving the rear wheels only, sets another road car record on weight, says GMA. With a 13kg crankshaft and titanium conrods, valves and clutch housing, the alloy V12 tips the scales at just 178kg. The gearbox weighs 80.5kg. This entire drivetrain forms a semi-structural part of the car while its compact dimensions, and notably low crank height, contribute to the T.50’s low centre of gravity.

The aim is for the T.50 to be the lightest supercar overall. GMA says it is on target to come in at under a tonne, 980kg to be precise, and consequently deliver what GMA describes as the ultimate responses and driver engagement. Obviously the car’s performance won’t be lacking, but as for specifics GMA is keeping them up its sleeve for now.

“More than half of any truly great driving experience is delivered by the engine, so right from the start I set the highest possible benchmark – to create the world’s greatest naturally-aspirated V12,” says Gordon Murray. “I started my career as an engine designer, so conceiving and specifying a 100 per cent bespoke V12 for the T.50 was a joy and something I’ve been waiting to do for years.”

He says for inspiration he looked to the 3.5-litre Honda V12 that powered the McLaren MP4/6 Formula 1 cars in the early 1990s, an engine he regards as the pinnacle. For Cosworth it was a tough gig as managing director Bruce Wood says: “The criteria and benchmarks set by Gordon comprised one of the toughest engine briefs we’ve ever taken on. It pushes the boundaries in every direction.”

That’s the GMA T.50 engine then – a Cosworth masterpiece set to be the beating heart of another Gordon Murray icon of supercar design? Time will tell, but in the meantime there’s a lot here to take in… and that’s without getting into the T.50’s three-seat, central driving position cabin, its 48-volt starter-generator, its various aerodynamic modes including a V-Max setting, or most fascinatingly its giant fan to suck it to the ground like Murray’s GP-winning but short-lived Formula 1 Brabham BT46B Fan Car of 1978. Roll on 4th August when the covers come off! 

Link: https://www.goodwood.com/grr/road/news/2020/7/gordon-murray-t.50s-v12-will-rev-to-12100rpm/ 

Whoopsy:

Grant:

I agree that the risks you mention are substantial, but I believe the upside totally warrants them (if I could afford even the deposit).

 

I am with SSO on this.

There really isn't that big an upside if at all. His 'vision' is too aggressive.

Worse odds than playing roulette, and that's like the worse game in a casino already.

 

 

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Hypercar market is already way oversaturated so risk is certainly quite high.  Also a lot of the "aura" around the McLaren F1 is because it won LeMans outright.  No chance this happens with the T.50.

SSO.:

Hypercar market is already way oversaturated so risk is certainly quite high.  Also a lot of the "aura" around the McLaren F1 is because it won LeMans outright.  No chance this happens with the T.50.

There are many hypercars currently available (and in the pipeline).  But how many of them have Manual, other than this one?  None, I think (this is a big deal to me and many some other crazy people). 

How many have NA V-12 engine that screams way over 10k rpm?  I guess this and Valkyrie only?

How many are feather-light (under 2,200 pounds or 1,000 kg)?  Maybe a couple, but most current hypercars weight at least 50% more.

For someone who cares about all of the above criteria as much as I do, there is no other alternative.

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18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

SSO.:

Whoopsy:

Grant:

I agree that the risks you mention are substantial, but I believe the upside totally warrants them (if I could afford even the deposit).

 

I am with SSO on this.

There really isn't that big an upside if at all. His 'vision' is too aggressive.

Worse odds than playing roulette, and that's like the worse game in a casino already.

 

 

--

 

 

 

 

Hypercar market is already way oversaturated so risk is certainly quite high.  Also a lot of the "aura" around the McLaren F1 is because it won LeMans outright.  No chance this happens with the T.50.

Now you’re judging it solely from a financial perspective, cars should be more to us than just that, no? I’m with Grant on this one, fantastic project in my book. Unfortunately can’t afford it. 😩

1969 Mercedes-Benz 300SEL 6.3  / 2008 Porsche 911 GT3 RS (sold) / 2011 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG Performance / 2014 BMW-Alpina D3 biturbo Touring / 2018 Porsche 911 GT3 Clubsport

Grant:

SSO.:

Hypercar market is already way oversaturated so risk is certainly quite high.  Also a lot of the "aura" around the McLaren F1 is because it won LeMans outright.  No chance this happens with the T.50.

There are many hypercars currently available (and in the pipeline).  But how many of them have Manual, other than this one?  None, I think (this is a big deal to me and many some other crazy people). 

How many have NA V-12 engine that screams way over 10k rpm?  I guess this and Valkyrie only?

How many are feather-light (under 2,200 pounds or 1,000 kg)?  Maybe a couple, but most current hypercars weight at least 50% more.

For someone who cares about all of the above criteria as much as I do, there is no other alternative.

--

 

18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

 

Have you taken a look at the SCG 007S?  https://glickenhausracing.com

I’m having difficulty finding specifications, but looks very cool.  Do you have any details?

18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

Grant:

I’m having difficulty finding specifications, but looks very cool.  Do you have any details?

A few are:  https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1127965_scg-007-hypercar-racer-drops-twin-turbo-v-6-for-twin-turbo-v-8

Interesting discussion - I am leaning to the @Grant side on the V12 and manual gear basis and also  that most people who will have come forth so far are in the " I can have one of everything so why not a T50 too category". Some will have worked for that money  , many will not have .

crayphile:

Interesting discussion - I am leaning to the @Grant side on the V12 and manual gear basis and also  that most people who will have come forth so far are in the " I can have one of everything so why not a T50 too category". Some will have worked for that money  , many will not have .

I understand that one of the categories of T.50 customers are existing McLaren F1 owners, many of whom will be rather happy with the appreciation of their Gordon Murray designed three-seater naturally aspirated V12 supercar! 

SSO.:

Grant:

I’m having difficulty finding specifications, but looks very cool.  Do you have any details?

 

A few are:  https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1127965_scg-007-hypercar-racer-drops-twin-turbo-v-6-for-twin-turbo-v-8

Thanks- do you think the road version may have a manual gearbox?

18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

Grant:

Whoopsy:

There really isn't that big an upside if at all. His 'vision' is too aggressive.

Worse odds than playing roulette, and that's like the worse game in a casino already.

When I say "upside", I don't mean that in a financial context (though it'll possibly be a very valuable car in the future).

I mean it in the sense that it may be my favorite modern automobile ever produced and my desire to have one is extraordinarily strong.  Lightweight (1 metric ton), 12,100 rpm NA V12, Manual gearbox, stunning track performance and driver involvement may not be your "cup of tea", but they are without a doubt exactly "my shot of tequila" 

There is nothing else like it.  Yes, the vision is very aggressive but the result could be amazing if it meets these goals.

I certainly wouldn't risk my last dollar on this, but if I had enough to stomach the loss I would be in line (I actually discussed it with 2 friends to split 3-ways, but I couldn't even dream of spending 1/3).

--

 

18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

 

My take is the proposed spec will be too aggressive to fulfill. 

IF the car does come to fruition, something has to give. What if the engine can't hit the rpm target, or the power output claimed. Car weight creeps up simply due to regulations. No suitable manual transmission could be another.

The only upside resides with him delivering what was promised. Every other result will be a downside. 

Mr Murray is very very picking and specific with his vision, he doesn't compromise. If he can't source something he could well cancel the project. 

Glickenhaus was the last person to ever produced his 'dream' car, even that was compromised from his vision. Odds aren't on Mr Murray's side.

Grant:

SSO.:

Grant:

I’m having difficulty finding specifications, but looks very cool.  Do you have any details?

 

A few are:  https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1127965_scg-007-hypercar-racer-drops-twin-turbo-v-6-for-twin-turbo-v-8

Thanks- do you think the road version may have a manual gearbox?

If you are willing to pay for the development, I am sure they can do it.

SSO.:

Grant:

SSO.:

Grant:

I’m having difficulty finding specifications, but looks very cool.  Do you have any details?

 

A few are:  https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1127965_scg-007-hypercar-racer-drops-twin-turbo-v-6-for-twin-turbo-v-8

Thanks- do you think the road version may have a manual gearbox?

If you are willing to pay for the development, I am sure they can do it.

I thought maybe that’s why you pointed me in its direction - I certainly can’t afford the standard car, not to mention a special development. 

18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

In what way is Gordon’s vision for his car more extreme than Newey’s for the Valkyrie?  Honest question.

Grant:

SSO.:

Grant:

SSO.:

Grant:

I’m having difficulty finding specifications, but looks very cool.  Do you have any details?

 

A few are:  https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1127965_scg-007-hypercar-racer-drops-twin-turbo-v-6-for-twin-turbo-v-8

Thanks- do you think the road version may have a manual gearbox?

If you are willing to pay for the development, I am sure they can do it.

I thought maybe that’s why you pointed me in its direction - I certainly can’t afford the standard car, not to mention a special development. 

Its a bit further down the food chain but the SCG 004S does come with a manual as standard.  https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1127181_the-scg-004-is-real-on-the-track-and-sounds-glorious

Thanks! 

18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

Guest:

In what way is Gordon’s vision for his car more extreme than Newey’s for the Valkyrie?  Honest question.

-The weight target of under 1000kg. From concept to prototype, Valkyrie gain mass already.

-specific engine output per litre. Current production record is the 458 Speciale, ~134hp per litre, Valkyrie should be having 154hp per litre, the T-50 is suppose to smashed that to about 168hp per litre. To produce such an engine without regular rebuilds will be a very tough job, these are road cars, not race cars.

-12,000rpm. Same reasoning as above. 

Whoopsy:

-specific engine output per litre. Current production record is the 458 Speciale, ~134hp per litre, Valkyrie should be having 154hp per litre, the T-50 is suppose to smashed that to about 168hp per litre. To produce such an engine without regular rebuilds will be a very tough job, these are road cars, not race cars.

-12,000rpm. Same reasoning as above. 

I think the engine output goals for the Valkyrie are far more ambitious than for the T50.  Remember that the Valkyrie has 6.5L and the T50 is lower than 4 Liters with same number of cylinders.  Piston speeds and moving masses will be much lower with T50 than Valkyrie, despite 1,000 rpm higher redline.

The cylinder size of the Valkyrie is well over 60% larger than T50.  T50's cylinder size (~330cc) is very close to the theoretically perfect size for revving and making power per l.  This why F1 engines adopted V10 engines when the new regs put displacement limit at 3.0L (had been 3.5L when many used V12 - pretty close to T50's 3.9-4.0L and nowhere near Valkyrie's 6.5L).

Yes, the valvetrain will have to be very good to spin that fast...

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18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi