Crown

I think I have mentioned briefly how disappointed I am with the Pirelli Pzero's that came with my 991 GTS. On wet surfaces these Pirellis are very inconsistent and unpredictable in some situations, one moment they seem fine and suddently the loose traction. Fine, dump them, but seems I cannot change for another model 

The tipical example is entering a wet roundabout at normal speeds the car would loose traction and slide, sometimes understeer, but more often oversteer. And I mean at normal speeds, no more speed than other cars around on the same roudabout and at lower speeds than with my 997 on the same conditions. 

Even once on a straight piece of highway on wet (raining but no standing a water on the surface) while accelerating at around 150km/h the rear end started to wiggle from side to side, not a good feeling at those speeds on the wet on a public highway, could have easily spelled disaster. And this is on a highway I drive every week for years and never had such problems on similar conditions and at ever greater speeds.

I have over 400,000km experience on 991's and have gone through many many many sets of tires and brands and models, so I can compare them on the same roads, same weather conditions and similar cars (996-997-991) so I have a good reference its not like "it may be normal behaviour" for those conditions, these Pirellis I'm using are subpar and unpredictable on wet compared to any other having to go slower on corners than ever and accelerate less on wet than ever.

At first I thought it was because they were new, but now with almost 20,000km I think the 1km breakin is over, and still just last week had the rear come out on a roudabout... embarrasing to say the least. And its not wear since this was the same since new. So I can't wait til I can toss these tires on the garbage. And here comes the problem, up until now I though that after siummer I would toss them and put on a set of Michelin PSS and probkem solved.

But today talking to a friend of mine, that has a 991 C4S Cab with 20" tires, he is telling me that he needs to put on new tires and he doenst want to fit the same ones because get this, on roundabouts on wet the rear would slide out at normal speeds and its very unsetteling and doesn't trust the tires on wet. Sounding very familiar I ask him what tires they are and turns out he has the Pirellis too. Problem is he can't find any other tire that has the N rating that is not the Pirelli or the Michelin Cup, which would be even worse on wet. 

So I pick up the phone and call the guys at the shop at the Porsche dealership and after looking it up, its true, only Pirelli's are N rated, aside from the Cups (normal and the reinforced more street friendly version), so far. No Michelin PS2, no Michelin PSS (of course no PS4 either then since they are pretty new), not even the Continental SportContact 6 which I thought as a last resort.

I had taken for granted that I would be able to fit Michelin PS2 or PSS which is a great tire in sport handling, in wet, and in wear, but now the thought of having to fit these Pirellis again is really pissing me off. I would not want them again if they were offered to me for free. And Cups are out of the cuestion since we get a lot of rain where outside the summer and I do high speed highway driving and its a daily driver, and use them all year round including winter since we get no snow here.

Only one N rated street tire available for the 20" wheel Carreras??? really??  that is BS, especially when that tire has such a poor performance on wet. Doesn't matter how good the car is if you bonly get one model of tires and the tires are crap on wet and you use the car as a daily allyear around.

Summer is coming now were there should not be much rain and can hold off a bit, but after that I have to get rid of them, no matter what the wear is on them, before the rainy weather comes in fall 

So does anyone have any info if there is another tire available, or what I can do?
Tire size is 245/35/20 front and 305/30/20 rear.)

--

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

Carlos- I'm sure you have checked, but tire pressure is very important in the wet.

I have the same tire on my C4 GTS and I cannot say I'm unhappy with it in the wet (we have lots of rain here). I never drive in Sport or Sport Plus in rain though, the ESP setup is certainly for dry roads only. In the wet, using even only Sport mode, can be very tricky because there is some severe understeer, followed by a more severe oversteer if you push it too hard, depending on the (wet) surface type/quality. Add a thin layer of mud (dust getting wet) or even oil and this can get very dangerous.

I know this sounds a bit weird but...drive slower under these conditions. Or stay away from the Sport modes. With Sport/Sport Plus off, I can do a lot of stupid stuff in rain and the ESP works quite OK (for such a car!).

There may be slightly better tires in the wet but I doubt you will be very happy with the results. 

The new N1 version of thr PZero is excellent, especially in the dry but with some improvements in the wet as well. Maybe worth a try once Porsche (hopefully) gives approval for the 991.1 Carrera models. 

You could also go with a non-N rated tire,if you find the right size but this could result in some dangerous moments under other driving situations.

I assume tire pressure is OK but have you tried to contact Porsche about this?

Actually I like the current PZero a lot (I said it before) but in the wet, there isn't really a much better tire, unless you are willing to compromise.

Or to use the words of my driving ed instuctor many many years when I couldn't manage to complete a wet roundabout stabilty test (I was always entering havy understeering): Slow down and stay away from the throttle!

I know that you can drive but sometimes it is impossible to achieve a certain performance under certain driving conditions, you can't beat physics. Some cars may have better a more neutral behavior in the wet but the 911 has a very specific weight distribution and mixed tire size setup. 

I still think however that you tried the wet roundabout in Sport mode because with ESP active, it is basically impossible to provoke serious under- and oversteer.

Alternatively, you could try to slide through the roundabout (this can be fun) but make sure there are no other cars (especially no police LOL) around. Brake late into the roundabout, initiate the slide and control it with gentle throttle commands (Sport Plus recommended!).

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

Spyderidol:

Carlos- I'm sure you have checked, but tire pressure is very important in the wet.

Very true spideridol, but I always keep a good eye on the pressures and keep them on factory recommended pressures always 

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

Looking at the list from Tire Rack for the tire sizes, I guess you could always try the Super Sport if you don't mind it having no N rating.

Carlos from Spain:

Spyderidol:

Carlos- I'm sure you have checked, but tire pressure is very important in the wet.

Very true spideridol, but I always keep a good eye on the pressures and keep them on factory recommended pressures always 

Sport/Sport Plus or not? Would be interesting to know.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

Carlos I know you don't get snow that stays on the roads but I assume you do get some winter and shoulder seasons months of low temperatures especially in the morning or late, and in these conditions no summer performance tire will be at its best, even below 10C there will be traction loss. I strongly suspect that newer tire fomulations are even less tolerant of cold than they were some ten years ago, and that this is in part what you have sensed with the P Zeros.  One thing to consider then, is switching to a system that most in northern latitudes have always done, ie. use a winter or performance all season tire for your cold/wet months, then go to a Cup tire in summer to have max performance in the season you can best use it.  As I recall the Pirelli Sottozero is the winter rated tire for 911s, and though it is not really the best winter tire for say, northern Russia, it is a very capable rain tire and has much stiffer sidewalls than virtually any other winter tire I am aware of - you can really push these on even dry roads. You might find you suddenly have gobs of winter and wet traction where you didn't before.  Albeit with the yearly hassle of a tire swap (which many solve by using a second set of winter wheels and doing their own wheel swaps).  Just a possibility....

--

2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S

You guys know me and my love for N tires. I have been using Bridgestone tires on the turbo for a couple of sets now and one of he best features is the rain traction. I can set the turbo into sport mode even and just stand on th gas from a stop. The car slips for about six inches and then just goes with no wheel spin. Never any issues around corners in the rain. They are not all season like on my 997 c2 but rather ultra high performance summer tires (which I use all year around here in Kansas).  No problems.  Just go to tire rack and take a look at the sizes which fit. I always look at the load rating of the rear tires to make certain they meet or exceed the NSpec load ratings. I have never experienced poor or strange handling with non N tires but of course I don't drive 200mph either. 

Carlos, I have put PSS on my 997 since now about two years . Not a single issue and they are the best tires I had on my car ...ever !  I just got a new set, arrived in the post today  ( see below )  

I make just sure the load rating is the same as the N rated ones . 

I have been driving them on open roads, under heavy rain and on tracks . They have been fabulous in every situation and there is no abnormal wear , nothing .  This is my 3 rd set.

I would not use anything else , and I don't take the BS about them not being N rated bla bla bla .....   Maybe if I would be doing constantly on German highways at 300 km/h .... and still , not sure 

So your choice, stick to the Pirellis and stay unhappy, or get the PSS, screw the N rating, and be happy 

--

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

Gnil:

Carlos, I have put PSS on my 997 since now about two years . Not a single issue and they are the best tires I had on my car ...ever !  I just got a new set, arrived in the post today  ( see below )  

I have been driving them on open roads and on tracks . They have been fabulous in every situation and there is no abnormal wear , nothing .  

I would not use anything else , and I don't take the BS about them not being N rated bla bla bla .....  

So your choice, stick to the Pirellis and stay unhappy, or get the PSS, screw the N rating, and be happy 

I was very very happy when I switched to PSS. It's the recommended tire on my F12.

BUT, my Porsche dealer was pissed and decided to play the anal game with me when I switched to PSS on my 911, they weren't ready to extend my warranty or give much attention to my car whenever I'd drop her for an annual check up  

Some close friends with (991) GT3's couldn't switch to Trofeo R during track days because of warranty issues and the dealer voiding them automatically, some decided to wait till their warranties were expired and make the switch to any other tire beside the OEM tire and go with an aftermarket exhaust while at it.

Carlos,

Check with your dealer first, they do like to make you look like the bad guy if anything breaks down, fingers are pointed at you for not sticking with (OEM) recommended parts

RC:

I have the same tire on my C4 GTS and I cannot say I'm unhappy with it in the wet (we have lots of rain here). I never drive in Sport or Sport Plus in rain though, the ESP setup is certainly for dry roads only. In the wet, using even only Sport mode, can be very tricky because there is some severe understeer, followed by a more severe oversteer if you push it too hard, depending on the (wet) surface type/quality. Add a thin layer of mud (dust getting wet) or even oil and this can get very dangerous.

I know this sounds a bit weird but...drive slower under these conditions. Or stay away from the Sport modes. With Sport/Sport Plus off, I can do a lot of stupid stuff in rain and the ESP works quite OK (for such a car!).

There may be slightly better tires in the wet but I doubt you will be very happy with the results. 

The new N1 version of thr PZero is excellent, especially in the dry but with some improvements in the wet as well. Maybe worth a try once Porsche (hopefully) gives approval for the 991.1 Carrera models. 

You could also go with a non-N rated tire,if you find the right size but this could result in some dangerous moments under other driving situations.

I assume tire pressure is OK but have you tried to contact Porsche about this?

Actually I like the current PZero a lot (I said it before) but in the wet, there isn't really a much better tire, unless you are willing to compromise.

Or to use the words of my driving ed instuctor many many years when I couldn't manage to complete a wet roundabout stabilty test (I was always entering havy understeering): Slow down and stay away from the throttle!

I know that you can drive but sometimes it is impossible to achieve a certain performance under certain driving conditions, you can't beat physics. Some cars may have better a more neutral behavior in the wet but the 911 has a very specific weight distribution and mixed tire size setup. 

I still think however that you tried the wet roundabout in Sport mode because with ESP active, it is basically impossible to provoke serious under- and oversteer.

Alternatively, you could try to slide through the roundabout (this can be fun) but make sure there are no other cars (especially no police LOL) around. Brake late into the roundabout, initiate the slide and control it with gentle throttle commands (Sport Plus recommended!).

 

I never use Sport or Sport Plus on wet, not only because of the more aggresive throttle remapping and the shorter gear ratios but also because what you mention of the increased PSM activation thresholds which is a risk in wet on public roads. So I always use normal mode on wet as well.

Wouldn't really want to go the non N rated route as you are taking a gamble on the outcome of the tires on certain situations that may arise with your car since they werent tested by Porsche.

As to driving slower, its not a issue about driving slower, I'm driving like I have always driven on those roads under the same conditions with the 997 and 996, and through different tire models. Its the tires that don't perform as they should reasonably do, and don't want to drive like on egg shells because of tires that have poor and unpredictable grip on wet. I'm specially talking about encountering a situation on wet were I would need good traction and stabibily from the tires to avoid an accicent, obstacle, or whatever. I have no trust on these tires.

--

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

Whoopsy:

Looking at the list from Tire Rack for the tire sizes, I guess you could always try the Super Sport if you don't mind it having no N rating.

 

Thanks Nick, those are actually the ones I had the intention to fit until I found all this out about having no other N rated tires than Pirelli's. I assumed that Porsche would have N rated PSS at least.

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

4trac:

Carlos I know you don't get snow that stays on the roads but I assume you do get some winter and shoulder seasons months of low temperatures especially in the morning or late, and in these conditions no summer performance tire will be at its best, even below 10C there will be traction loss. I strongly suspect that newer tire fomulations are even less tolerant of cold than they were some ten years ago, and that this is in part what you have sensed with the P Zeros.  One thing to consider then, is switching to a system that most in northern latitudes have always done, ie. use a winter or performance all season tire for your cold/wet months, then go to a Cup tire in summer to have max performance in the season you can best use it.  As I recall the Pirelli Sottozero is the winter rated tire for 911s, and though it is not really the best winter tire for say, northern Russia, it is a very capable rain tire and has much stiffer sidewalls than virtually any other winter tire I am aware of - you can really push these on even dry roads. You might find you suddenly have gobs of winter and wet traction where you didn't before.  Albeit with the yearly hassle of a tire swap (which many solve by using a second set of winter wheels and doing their own wheel swaps).  Just a possibility....

HI 4trac! We don't get any snow at all, maybe one day once every 10-20 years, but we also don't get very cold temperatures either. The coldest days in winter may be 0 to -5ºC and only in the early morning and some specific areas of the highway at that. So winter tires are unseen over here because they wouldn't work on this climate. Also the times these incidents happened in the wet happened were not even when it was cold out, 10ºC at most.

The problem with the Cups is that even though in dry in summer they would be great, I do a lot of highway driving at +100mph speeds and if it rains in summer, I would have a problem with the Cups. City driving in rain no problem, but highway is different, and catch a sudden patch of standing watter and your in trouble. Its a daily driver so I need all weather tire without many compromises. Also it would not be practical fitting Cups only for summer since I can't use winter rims/tires in winter anyway.

--

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

Gnil:

Carlos, I have put PSS on my 997 since now about two years . Not a single issue and they are the best tires I had on my car ...ever !  I just got a new set, arrived in the post today  ( see below )  

I make just sure the load rating is the same as the N rated ones . 

I have been driving them on open roads, under heavy rain and on tracks . They have been fabulous in every situation and there is no abnormal wear , nothing .  This is my 3 rd set.

I would not use anything else , and I don't take the BS about them not being N rated bla bla bla .....   Maybe if I would be doing constantly on German highways at 300 km/h .... and still , not sure 

So your choice, stick to the Pirellis and stay unhappy, or get the PSS, screw the N rating, and be happy 

I have a friend with a 997.2S who uses the PSS even though they are not N rated and says the same thing you say about them and loves them.

Only problem is that it may not necesarily apply to the 991  so I would be experimenting which is what I don't want to do, that is why I would really not like to go non N rated, but the though of fitting the Pirellis again  I may just have to...

Will have to see if I find some more feedback on the PSS on 991 as well, will talk to the shop, and other owners. Maybe this friend that I was mentioning that has the same exact problem with the Pirellis and his 991C4S Cab with 20" as well, will fit them since he has to change them now and can't wait...

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

BiTurbo:

 

I was very very happy when I switched to PSS. It's the recommended tire on my F12.

BUT, my Porsche dealer was pissed and decided to play the anal game with me when I switched to PSS on my 911, they weren't ready to extend my warranty or give much attention to my car whenever I'd drop her for an annual check up  

Some close friends with (991) GT3's couldn't switch to Trofeo R during track days because of warranty issues and the dealer voiding them automatically, some decided to wait till their warranties were expired and make the switch to any other tire beside the OEM tire and go with an aftermarket exhaust while at it.

Carlos,

Check with your dealer first, they do like to make you look like the bad guy if anything breaks down, fingers are pointed at you for not sticking with (OEM) recommended parts

Thats a very good point, I will check with my dealer just in be on the safe side since the car is on factory warranty, even though from the dealer's side there won't be any problems since I know them for many years and know everybody from the sales to the mechanics, have a very close relationship with them.

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

BTW, thanks for all the feedback guys 

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

As I also have the 20' tires on my cayman I have the same "issue " - in particular as Michelin is a porsche partner in the German club sport series. Still, I hope that with the introduction of the 718 something happens...FWIW, I happy with the Pzeros...

Hello Carls,

what about the Dunlop Sport Maxx Race? Michelin Super Sports have been developed on the 997, in fact it has been their demo car for racetracks and someone in the development team at the company has recommend them to me personally. I cannot evaluate how this tire fares on the 991 in 20" but it would be the first alternative outside of OEM I would consider.

Hi Ferdie, thanks for the chart. Don't know about Dunlop, never tried them but don't think they would be on par with Michelin, Pirelli and Brigestone though. That said, in the chart it shows not only the N0 for the 991 GTS but also the N1 version. I have the N0 on my GTS, wonder if the newer homologation spec N1 would be better than the N0 

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

The Dunlop Sport Max Race is a tire on par with the Michelin Cup2s. I have those on my GT3RS right now.

They are a bit better in the wet than the Cup2s, but still inferior to the PZeros I have on the Ferraris. 

I've been using the Max Race also and not too big a fan (they wear out in the center of the tread pretty fast when driven hard).

16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

Carlos from Spain:

Hi Ferdie, thanks for the chart. Don't know tried them but don't think they would be on par with Michelin, Pirelli and Brigestone though. That said, in the chart it shows not only the N0 for the 991 GTS but also the N1 version. I have the N0 on my GTS, wonder if the newer homologation spec N1 would be better than the N0 

Carlos,

P Zero N0 and P Zero N1 are different tires. New N1 use differnt profile. https://www.pirelli.com/tyres/en-gb/car/find-your-tyres/products-sheet/p-zero

According to my P source they are superior in every way to old N0. Improved wet handling as well. Also, codeveloped with Porsche can key for amazing Ring time of new 991.2 CS.

New N1 is in the middle and old N0 on the left.

BiTurbo:

Gnil:

Carlos, I have put PSS on my 997 since now about two years . Not a single issue and they are the best tires I had on my car ...ever !  I just got a new set, arrived in the post today  ( see below )  

I have been driving them on open roads and on tracks . They have been fabulous in every situation and there is no abnormal wear , nothing .  

I would not use anything else , and I don't take the BS about them not being N rated bla bla bla .....  

So your choice, stick to the Pirellis and stay unhappy, or get the PSS, screw the N rating, and be happy 

I was very very happy when I switched to PSS. It's the recommended tire on my F12.

BUT, my Porsche dealer was pissed and decided to play the anal game with me when I switched to PSS on my 911, they weren't ready to extend my warranty or give much attention to my car whenever I'd drop her for an annual check up  

Some close friends with (991) GT3's couldn't switch to Trofeo R during track days because of warranty issues and the dealer voiding them automatically, some decided to wait till their warranties were expired and make the switch to any other tire beside the OEM tire and go with an aftermarket exhaust while at it.

Carlos,

Check with your dealer first, they do like to make you look like the bad guy if anything breaks down, fingers are pointed at you for not sticking with (OEM) recommended parts

I had a very different experience, actually the complete opposite 

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

As a side note, isn't their anything a fit fishy about the PSS not being N rated ?  As Ferdie, mentions, the PSS was developed on the 997.2  and all the mules at the time were fitted with those . 

I can't believe the best road tire from Michelin can't be N rated .......  

Those new  P Zero N1 look very different from the N0 , maybe you have your answer their ,Carlos .

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

Gnil:

As a side note, isn't their anything a fit fishy about the PSS not being N rated ?  As Ferdie, mentions, the PSS was developed on the 997.2  and all the mules at the time were fitted with those . 

I can't believe the best road tire from Michelin can't be N rated .......  

I have long wondered about the lack of a recommendation and OEM production release for Michelin PSS tyres for recent 911 models. 
In view of Michelin being the tyre sponsor for motor sport activities and the long relationship between the two marques it seems weird that they would not have been able to eliminate any technical problems which might initially have delayed the release. I suspect that it is now more of a political problem resulting from commercial differences or a personality clash somewhere. 
If so, it's a shame the customers have to suffer for it. 

fritz

Whoopsy:

The Dunlop Sport Max Race is a tire on par with the Michelin Cup2s. I have those on my GT3RS right now.

They are a bit better in the wet than the Cup2s, but still inferior to the PZeros I have on the Ferraris. 

 

Thanks Nick, that means Dunlop is a no go since what I need is better wet performance than the Pirelli.

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

KresoF1:

Carlos from Spain:

Hi Ferdie, thanks for the chart. Don't know tried them but don't think they would be on par with Michelin, Pirelli and Brigestone though. That said, in the chart it shows not only the N0 for the 991 GTS but also the N1 version. I have the N0 on my GTS, wonder if the newer homologation spec N1 would be better than the N0 

Carlos,

P Zero N0 and P Zero N1 are different tires. New N1 use differnt profile. https://www.pirelli.com/tyres/en-gb/car/find-your-tyres/products-sheet/p-zero

According to my P source they are superior in every way to old N0. Improved wet handling as well. Also, codeveloped with Porsche can key for amazing Ring time of new 991.2 CS.

New N1 is in the middle and old N0 on the left.

This is good news Kreso, thanks a lot for the info 

I'm going to check now if the N1's are available. I would rather give the N1's a chance before taking a gamble on a non-rated tire, so this may be the solution 

--

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

I havn't had any issues with my PZeros but I am about to replace my rear tires.  I havn't heard a lot of good things about the PZeros N0, so "upgrading" to the N1 or switching to MPSS has been something I am considering.

My questions is, I only need rear tires at this time and if I went with the MPSS I would swap out all 4, but if I decide on the N1s would it be a bad idea and unsafe to have N0 on the front and N1s on the back until my fronts need replaced?

Thanks.

fritz:

I suspect that it is now more of a political problem resulting from commercial differences or a personality clash somewhere. 
If so, it's a shame the customers have to suffer for it. 

Fully agree . That's why I believe ( with no proof then my own driving in many different conditions  ) that the dimensions for the Porsche wheels are fully adapted . They just do not have the N sign on them .

And  I have been talking to quite a few people  involved in racing with Porsche that do use the PSS and think it is perfectly fine 

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

Kozzoloz:

I havn't had any issues with my PZeros but I am about to replace my rear tires.  I havn't heard a lot of good things about the PZeros N0, so "upgrading" to the N1 or switching to MPSS has been something I am considering.

My questions is, I only need rear tires at this time and if I went with the MPSS I would swap out all 4, but if I decide on the N1s would it be a bad idea and unsafe to have N0 on the front and N1s on the back until my fronts need replaced?

Thanks.

They look like completely different tires . I would not mix them . Always use 4 same tires .

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS