Closespudgun:Oh god, we were 5 post on track when a member got a warning, one brings up Tesla again and the another one just quits for no reason
--
997.2 4S / BMW X5 40e / Donkervoort GT
You are right, all this is kind of funny
Maybe discussions about family vans or SUVs or whatever are not perfectly suited for Rennteam... There were rarely any disagreements when we discuss proper sportscars....
MKSGR:spudgun:Oh god, we were 5 post on track when a member got a warning, one brings up Tesla again and the another one just quits for no reason
--
997.2 4S / BMW X5 40e / Donkervoort GT
You are right, all this is kind of funny
Maybe discussions about family vans or SUVs or whatever are not perfectly suited for Rennteam... There were rarely any disagreements when we discuss proper sportscars....
Problem is that if you limit the discussions in the way you suggest, the level of activity and number of posts will decrease even further and more members will drop out. Just take a look where the major number of posts are and in what threads.
The most important is to keep a friendly tone, share knowledge and accept different opinions without turning the discussion into black/white. If it is about watches, gt2rs, EVs or safari in Africa doesn't matter that much. I'm sure that many in here are interested in EVs even though there are some that are less interested. It would be different if Porsche didn't move in the EV direction, but now they do and seems fully committed with the Taycan being the first to enter the stage.
I at least find it very interesting to read threads about different SUVs and sporty daily drivers and read feedback from owners that see the car as something a bit more than pure transportation. This create a good mix and just add to the reasons frequently visiting this forum.
MKSGR:SciFrog,“your behavior is below the class of this place.“
Last warning: no further insults like above or you will be history here. On Rennteam we should not insult other people. It is actually part of the forum rules.
That is well noted and yes that was a shot across the bow, ONE in 15 years that gets a “last warning” tag after 13 years, and which comes after clear attempts to keep everything on topic... But this works both ways, I might have misinterpreted and overreacted and I am sorry for that, but I did take your post as an insult not only to me but also to a large group of people.
I am just hoping that all this wasted energy will not be in vain and that the moderators are reflecting on where RT is today and where it should go in the future to survive. I think LukeStern is striking the right tone.
SciFrog:MKSGR:SciFrog,“your behavior is below the class of this place.“
Last warning: no further insults like above or you will be history here. On Rennteam we should not insult other people. It is actually part of the forum rules.
That is well noted and yes that was a shot across the bow, ONE in 15 years that gets a “last warning” tag after 13 years, and which comes after clear attempts to keep everything on topic... But this works both ways, I might have misinterpreted and overreacted and I am sorry for that, but I did take your post as an insult not only to me but also to a large group of people.
I am just hoping that all this wasted energy will not be in vain and that the moderators are reflecting on where RT is today and where it should go in the future to survive. I think LukeStern is striking the right tone.
Yes Lukestern is doing it perfectly I agreed.
SciFrog:MKSGR:SciFrog,“your behavior is below the class of this place.“
Last warning: no further insults like above or you will be history here. On Rennteam we should not insult other people. It is actually part of the forum rules.
That is well noted and yes that was a shot across the bow, ONE in 15 years that gets a “last warning” tag after 13 years, and which comes after clear attempts to keep everything on topic... But this works both ways, I might have misinterpreted and overreacted and I am sorry for that, but I did take your post as an insult not only to me but also to a large group of people.
I am just hoping that all this wasted energy will not be in vain and that the moderators are reflecting on where RT is today and where it should go in the future to survive. I think LukeStern is striking the right tone.
Ok & no problem then
There was an interesting interview in Autocar with Carlos Tavares, head of PSA and a man with a wealth of experience in the automotive industry. Here are his thoughts on the legislative push towards EV's -
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/psa-chairman-carlos-tavares-groups-next-steps
9 April 2019
As head of the PSA Group, which comprises Citroën, DS, Peugeot and Vauxhall/Opel, Carlos Tavares is one of the most powerful figures in the car industry.
Tavares also serves as chairman of the European Automobile Manufacturers Association (ACEA), so his views on a variety of issues have a major impact on the industry.
Autocar caught up with Tavares on a range of topics, including PSA’s recent restructure, Vauxhall’s turnaround and his thoughts on new, tougher European Union CO2 targets.
There are reports you need to cut 100,000 jobs because of the cost of meeting emission regulations. Is that true?
“This is fake news. But more than 20,000 jobs have been shed over the past three months [across the European car industry].
“Electromobility is costly. When we’re faced with significant cost, it leads to increased prices and clean emissions become elitist. We either sell fewer cars or get fined [for missing EU emission targets]. So we have to restructure, or sell at a loss to hit the EU targets.”
Why are low-emission cars so expensive?
“The cost of batteries is not competitive. If you push the supply of batteries to Asia, the price goes up. The [EU] rules should coincide with the introduction of a European battery maker. It’s not coordinated or planned strategically. Where is the charging network investment? It’s not a 360deg approach and there’s a lack of rigorous planning. This is serious stuff – the EVs are there and for sale. These are €30,000 (£26,000) vehicles, and there’s no decent charging network. This problem is not all about the car makers.”
What is your view on the EU emission regulations introduced in October last year, requiring fleet average CO2 emissions to be reduced by 45% from 2020 levels by 2030?
“We are being held hostage by the October vote. An impact study for this doesn’t even exist. We need to protect the competitiveness of our industry. At PSA, we will survive and adapt. But when the EU moves in a speedy way, what happens to the ecosystem of partners, suppliers and dealers? If you shift suddenly, something is going to break. People are not aware of the consequences.
“Around 40% of the total cost of an EV will move to Asia [due to batteries sourced there]. Did the EU have a mandate to send jobs to Asia? We need strategic coordination. Asking these questions is not pushing back against the regulations. Who has the big picture in mind? Where are the charging networks? What about well-to-wheel CO2? What if a different technology comes in, such as hydrogen? The money is then wasted.”
Apr 22, 2019 2:44:53 PM
Just reposting an interesting articles all....
Apr 22, 2019 3:36:53 PM
It's funny if one try to dig deeper into these environment impacts numbers.
EV cars shift the burden upstream, so yes while a EV car emits nothing on the road, it's not emission free at all, which most EV enthusiasts tried to dodge that bullet.
Gasoline cars are not even close to being a significant CO2 emitter, either, it's small potato compared to other major polluters which governments conveniently omit.
Making of cement, a component of concrete, is the 3rd biggest emitter I the world behind China and USA, if it is counted as a country.
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-46455844
The numbers are out there, but no one uses them to go against the cement industry. Why? Imagine if governments goes after the cement industry as fierce as they go after gasoline power cars. Not gonna be pretty.
Agricultural sector is also another big emitter, they get a pass from the government also.
Electricity generation is also a big emitter, especially those coal fired plants, governments are not really going after them either.
And if we split transportation up into commercial and personal usage, the commercial section, big rigs, trains (including the electric ones as they also shift the burden upstream to the power plant), personal usage cars emission are tiny.
The whole environment issue is like a water pipe with many leaks, conventional wisdom would have us patching the biggest hole first, but no, that would be suicide politically, and no politicians have the balls to do that, so they go after the smallest of holes, as they are easiest to target, but it does basically nothing to fix the whole issue.
Now if governments around the world is even half way serious to curb greenhouse gases, go outlaw concrete first.Then madate agricultural sector to cut their emission by half say within a couple decades, and outlaw coal fire power plants, well while we at it, make it illegal to burn coal, including charcoal completely, no more home barbecue! Also mandate all commercial transportation to cut their emission by say 75% in say another couple decades. I can bet whatever I have, that the environment will be much cleaner than just going after cars.
I would also mandate that all car makers publish their CO2 impact for all their cars, from manufacturing all the way down to end user usage, account for how each region's electricity source also. then end users will have a complete picture of how their purchase actually affects the environment, a EV car could really be cleaner than a gasoline car inn a region where electricity is generated naturally, say solar or hydro, and it could be much worse than a gasoline car if their electricity comes from a coal fired power plant.
Apr 22, 2019 3:37:05 PM
Please just stop with this discussion about climate impact. It just doesn't make sense to discuss this in here and for certain not in this thread. This is just another example of black and white and there are two sides here who will never ever agree.
Pollution of petrol cars has never been discussed in a car forum before so why should we start now when it comes to EVs? And why bring up things to the table that there are worse polluters on earth than the car industry, like the whole shipping industry etc?
Porsche has decided to create their first EV which is the Taycan and let's focus on discussing the car instead of time after time moving over the discussion to extreme articles that is completely off topic in a bad way. There are enough articles covering both sides already concerning the climate and pollution in different regions of our world. Rennteamers will never reach any new or interesting conclusion on this topic and much is just about speculation and posting stuff that suits ones standpoint. Period.
What is interesting are the specs of the Taycan, how will charging develop with Ionity and Electrify america, how will the car perform on the track, how will the rumored 2 geared gearbox work, do we have some more technical interesting goodies to discuss about the car, will Porsche offer some new cool and innovative options on the Taycan, etc etc. That is what is interesting. And I know for sure that many members lurking in here have and will have some interesting perspectives to add. When it comes to production I'm sure Porsche, like any other large scale manufacturer these days, will take their responsibility and manufacture their products in a good way when it comes to lower co2 emissions in their production, source materials from ethic places, etc. But on a car forum this should be the least interesting part to discuss.
If this continue to derail many threads I'm for sure out of this community and will follow some other members who seems already have left. Will monitor it for some time now and if it continues I'll ask any of the moderators to just delete my user account after 14 years on here. Hope though this will not be the case because I still much enjoy visiting this forum and read up on interesting topics. But anything related to climate change etc is just not suitable in here, just like politics.
Apr 22, 2019 6:35:17 PM
I like the Taycan but I also happen to believe it is human nature not to fully cost things and i don’t think anyone properly takes account of the full life cycle costs of EV power currently. If they did I am not sure that the cost benefit equation in environmental terms is that persuasive. That said, as we have seen, rightly or wrongly, diesel is most probably dead and it is only a matter of time that politicians turn their eyes to gasoline engines...
Apr 22, 2019 7:33:55 PM
lukestern:Please just stop with this discussion about climate impact. It just doesn't make sense to discuss this in here and for certain not in this thread. This is just another example of black and white and there are two sides here who will never ever agree.
Pollution of petrol cars has never been discussed in a car forum before so why should we start now when it comes to EVs? And why bring up things to the table that there are worse polluters on earth than the car industry, like the whole shipping industry etc?
Porsche has decided to create their first EV which is the Taycan and let's focus on discussing the car instead of time after time moving over the discussion to extreme articles that is completely off topic in a bad way. There are enough articles covering both sides already concerning the climate and pollution in different regions of our world. Rennteamers will never reach any new or interesting conclusion on this topic and much is just about speculation and posting stuff that suits ones standpoint. Period.
What is interesting are the specs of the Taycan, how will charging develop with Ionity and Electrify america, how will the car perform on the track, how will the rumored 2 geared gearbox work, do we have some more technical interesting goodies to discuss about the car, will Porsche offer some new cool and innovative options on the Taycan, etc etc. That is what is interesting. And I know for sure that many members lurking in here have and will have some interesting perspectives to add. When it comes to production I'm sure Porsche, like any other large scale manufacturer these days, will take their responsibility and manufacture their products in a good way when it comes to lower co2 emissions in their production, source materials from ethic places, etc. But on a car forum this should be the least interesting part to discuss.
If this continue to derail many threads I'm for sure out of this community and will follow some other members who seems already have left. Will monitor it for some time now and if it continues I'll ask any of the moderators to just delete my user account after 14 years on here. Hope though this will not be the case because I still much enjoy visiting this forum and read up on interesting topics. But anything related to climate change etc is just not suitable in here, just like politics.
Climate impact is the principle reason for EV car to set foot in the market place. It's the perceived dirtiness of diesel and gasoline cars that brings the EV quicker to market.
It is THE central piece for the whole EV movement.
It's not even about Tesla, but all EV to come. Are they really cleaner?
Why shouldn't people talk about the giant white elephant in the room?
Governments brings out the banner that they want to cut automobile emissions and the only quick way to do the is to make EV cars to bring down the fleet average. Tesla fires the first shot, PAG has amassed a giant armada ready for D-Day, Mercedes, BMW, RIvian are all gearing up for battle. All because of that giant elephant.
For EV fans, it's best to keep saying a EV car is clean and avoid talking about the elephant, as all the responsibility had been shifted upstream. Enviromentally conscious customers however should have a right to know if a 'clean' car is really clean. Just like people buying organic eggs should know their eggs are really organic. Or Marlboro Lights aren't really a 'light' cigarette. It's called the truth.
I am not saying gasoline cars are actually cleaner, and the truth about the environmental impact of every car on market could surprise a lot of people when they found out the truth. I think people should have a right to know and then make their own conclusion about their purchase.
--
Diesel engines don't have the enviromental cost of gas at the refinery where cracking into gas creates a lot of pollution but they have more of an impact where people breathe in the fumes in the city...
At the end of the day there is the potential for electricity to be much greener through solar, hydro etc. than any type of petroleum ever could be. There is also the ability to recycle the batteries.
I think looking at the total lifecycle of EV cars against the pollution of ICE engines is disingenuous as you have to look at the total pollution that the getting of the petroleum product out of the ground and then refining it creates.
This gets back to my often mentioned view that looking at the price of solar which is in an exponential curve downwards tied to EV cars and the ease of car sharing those EV cars will transform the people transportation industry within the next 20 years. The enthusiast and single owner car industry will remain but be a small fraction of what the car industry is today. Most people will own or rent a portion of a fleet to have them drive them when and where they need.
Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region
spudgun:Mods, can we please move these climate talks to a new thread? Or begin a new Taycan thread? This is getting ridiculous...
Sorry!
I think this all goes to prove the fact that as it sits now the Taycan looks bloated against the superb concept and it's interest lays mostly around the fact that it is a Porsche. I have three friends getting one but none of them are gearheads and all three are coming from Cayenne hybrids.
Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region
Mithras:Diesel engines don't have the enviromental cost of gas at the refinery where cracking into gas creates a lot of pollution but they have more of an impact where people breathe in the fumes in the city...
At the end of the day there is the potential for electricity to be much greener through solar, hydro etc. than any type of petroleum ever could be. There is also the ability to recycle the batteries.
I think looking at the total lifecycle of EV cars against the pollution of ICE engines is disingenuous as you have to look at the total pollution that the getting of the petroleum product out of the ground and then refining it creates.
This gets back to my often mentioned view that looking at the price of solar which is in an exponential curve downwards tied to EV cars and the ease of car sharing those EV cars will transform the people transportation industry within the next 20 years. The enthusiast and single owner car industry will remain but be a small fraction of what the car industry is today. Most people will own or rent a portion of a fleet to have them drive them when and where they need.
I'm generally in agreement with this. We know that electricity is the ideal form of input energy for pretty much everything and we need reliable storage for it as well. Petroleum fuels are known to be finite and there is no evidence that they can ever be that clean in the volume we need. Unless we manage fusion in the near future, the more traditional renewables are going to be what we need. There are no other viable alternatives.
It's also important to note that whether an EV today is extremely "green" is somewhat irrelevant. You cannot jump from the a new technology to a mature technology overnight. People say the grid is not capable of supporting EVs. Well, if you don't start pushing EVs, why would the grid ever bother to upgrade to support them? People say battery raw material mining is dirty. Battery improvements are going to be driven by investment in them, and demand is what will create that investment. Without demand for millions of cars every year, they won't get enough investment.
BEVs are probably the best way to speed up progress and adoption not only for batteries, but also for many related renewable technologies that are going to be required in the future. There are very few industries that can generate the demand to encourage the investment to improve them. Automobiles are also extremely inefficient assets that are ripe for efficiency improvements. Consumers are notoriously wasteful and they are especially wasteful with cars. Even with EVs they are wasteful, buying the largest packs when they rarely use a fraction of it on any given day. Consumer products are largely what drive innovation due to the sheer size of the demand.
Eventually we will be able to make BEVs very clean and "green". It won't happen over night, but it will never happen if you don't start. And if you don't force companies, it likely won't start fast enough. Look no further than the stagnation of fuel economy from 1985-2005. 25 years of zero progress.
lukestern:Please just stop with this discussion about climate impact. It just doesn't make sense to discuss this in here and for certain not in this thread. This is just another example of black and white and there are two sides here who will never ever agree.
I'd add that it also doesn't help that most articles posted are very biased and incomplete. Someone just shared an article that used this data in the analysis:
A battery pack for a Tesla Model 3 pollutes the climate with 11 to 15 tonnes of CO2. Each battery pack has a lifespan of approximately ten years and total mileage of 94,000, would mean 73 to 98 grams of CO2 per kilometer (116 to 156 grams of CO2 per mile), Buchal said.
Where is the data that shows a battery pack is only good for 10 years and 94,000 miles? Tesla themselves says the battery pack will be good for 500,000 miles, which is likely longer than the car itself. With normal at-home charging, it's likely the battery packs last far longer than this "research" claims.
This thread serves mainly to remind me of our long-term member Fritz, who started it a long time ago... but I would ask W8MM and any others who will actually purchase a Taycan and write real feedback based on the real car, to please begin a NEW thread- many of us will never look here to find such valuable comments.
2017 Range Rover Sport S/C, 2009 Porsche 911S
keithw:We know that electricity is the ideal form of input energy for pretty much everything and we need reliable storage for it as well. .
Maybe in an ideal world, but today (just looked it up for the US, source is eia)...
Sources of electricity (USA):
Fossil fuels 64%
Nuclear 19%
Renewable 17%
Unlikely this will change soon. Efficiency of electricity generated in power plants with fossil fuels and then transferred to EV cars is much lower than efficiency of a modern Diesel car, for example. Also, nuclear power stations can explode an destroy parts of a country as has been demonstrated in Japan or Tchernobyl.
Porsche 718 Boxster and Cayman will go electric by 2022, report says
https://apple.news/Ak3i7Wv7lRheC_Whu8V00BA
186 miles range 718 in 2022 EV along with some hybrid in parallel. Strange report.
He uses Apple News which collects news items all over the Internet.
This is the actual news link from CNet
MKSGR:keithw:We know that electricity is the ideal form of input energy for pretty much everything and we need reliable storage for it as well. .Maybe in an ideal world, but today (just looked it up for the US, source is eia)...
Sources of electricity (USA):
Fossil fuels 64%
Nuclear 19%
Renewable 17%
Unlikely this will change soon. Efficiency of electricity generated in power plants with fossil fuels and then transferred to EV cars is much lower than efficiency of a modern Diesel car, for example. Also, nuclear power stations can explode an destroy parts of a country as has been demonstrated in Japan or Tchernobyl.
True, but you have to start somewhere and renewables are growing pretty quickly. Renewables in the US went from 13% to 17% of total energy production in just 5 years and it will probably keep growing at an even faster rate as renewable tech gets cheaper and cheaper.
Diesels may be efficient, but if they aren't helping to push the development needs elsewhere, then we'll ultimately be worse off in the long-run. BEVs will likely lead to greater and greater investment and development of things like energy storage, solar, etc. Diesel cars, for example, aren't going to be what drives much needed grid improvements for the future.
Whoopsy:He uses Apple News which collects news items all over the Internet.
This is the actual news link from CNet
Thanks Nick.
Pure EV roadster? It’s not a roadster if I can’t shift, hear the engine and be fully engaged emotionally.
Hybrid? maybe... but only if it’s performance focused... EV torque fill / supplementation...
I’ll buy an MV Agusta or learn to fly an aircraft before I spend a dollar on an EV “roadster.” I’m repulsed by the idea of driving a completely quiet battery pack with 2 pedals. Porsche marketing needs to start seeing EVs as having completely different “use cases” for drivers and not trying to make electrified versions of existing concepts. Didn’t they learn anything about the sales failure of the turbo 4 718 models? I’ll keep my flat 6, manual, conventional sport suspension 981 GTS, thank you, Porsche.
An EV I’d actually buy now? It would need to be fully autonomous, could be summoned / scheduled remotely, and trained to run errands for me (pick up groceries, dry cleaning) and generate some side revenue for me taking appropriate customers to and from the airport or train station for instance. I’d use it to be transported in comfort while sleeping or reading or playing PlayStation or whatever. Anything would be better than babysitting a soulless machine that needs a human to be a failsafe for some incompletely trustworthy autonomous driving algorithm. My time is more valuable than that.
About Rennteam | Help | Terms of use | Privacy Policy | Support | Contact | Imprint | Archive
Powered by
Community
and
