Crown

Seems as if Georg Kacher is on Rennteam with his Porsche Taycan Cross Turismo, Audi e-tron, and Mercedes-Benz EQC comparison drive article.  He even has a Flipper comment!  https://www.automobilemag.com/news/audi-e-tron-vs-porsche-taycan-cross-turismo-vs-mercedes-benz-eqc-luxury-ev-suvs/

MKSGR:

Leawood911:

I am 100% car guy and have owned nothing but Porsche 911s all my life.  I’m thrilled to hear about Tesla and I concur that the Audi has a nice interior and is lacking in every other important aspect. Range, speed, tech, weight, price. My expert car mind tells me it is a loser. It takes a lot of kool aid to think otherwise but I get that banning opinions to the contrary helps a lot. Cheers

Very simple: not your decision. Also: last warning. Refrain from posting stuff like the above. This is not acceptable here.

 

Lol. 😙. Cheers and good luck. Auf wiedersehen. I don’t need threats to ban my speech.  You should be ashamed of yourself.  This forum is officially dying and dead.  Not appropriate for me to spend another minute posting on this site.  To those who have been my friend - thank you very much. 

wow seems like the EV world is actually turning into a war

Tesla was the first to reborn EV cars. Yes, reborn, EV cars was the norm more than 100y ago. Tesla is the cool brand with loads of fanatic associated to it for some unknown reason. Porsche will deliver the first full electric car and it will be a blast. it will just be a Porsche.

heated argument is very common here but that is probably a bit overrated at the moment

E-tron is a terrible name, I am French, but it will be an Audi as we all know what Audi is about; not the best but surely not the worst with top quality. Tesla proposes different approach to car industry and this is interesting (evolution, retrofit, price changes, bla bla bla) but they need to level up in term of quality. VW cars will propose the full range of the EV possibilities, from cheap daily car to top sports car or top luxury car. E-tron is not top luxury and not top sports car. other brands within the group will do that.

Porsche will deliver something interesting and it is in just few months from now.

GT Lover, Porsche fan

991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

Cayenne GTS 2014

What is the most applicable is that Volkswagen Group, along with the other automakers in the EU, are having difficulties meeting the carbon limits in the EU without resorting to EVs, or diesels.   Audi has introduced three S cars, A5, A6, A7, all with diesel in the EU, when previous versions were petrol.   Interestingly, the new variants are petrol for the RoW.   This means a significant performance difference in the EU versus the world in the case of the S6 and S7.  Both gain the same motor from the Porsche Panamera S.  The RS variants are said to gain the same petrol motor as that found in the Panamera Turbo.   

China has also mandated a set percentage of EVs to be sold in country.   There are currently 350+ automakers with most dedicated to EV production.   The majors are responding in kind.   However, this will make EVs a very competitive sector and only those with deep pockets and some profitability will survive.

There really is no need for all the hostility from both sides. Of the Tesl people would just stop over ‘promoting’, the gasoline side would not have such a push back. Both sides can stay civilized. 

EV is not the future of cars, it’s the sort of future of transportation, very different thing. But governments around the world seems like they want cars to be transportation only.

i just spent the last week or so with the GT2RS in Europe, this car is a waste on any public road in North America, it is perfect for the German autobahn or the track, good thing I got a track back home to stretch it legs.

The gas tank last 5 laps on the Ring, best use of gasoline ever. A fully charged Tesla probably will last 2 maybe 3 laps. I think a Taycan should also last maybe 3 laps. 

Also spent 45 mins on the GP circuit yesterday, it was awesome, with the engine sound along the way, I wouldn’t have so much fun in a silent car for sure. 

Leawood911:

MKSGR:

Leawood911:

I am 100% car guy and have owned nothing but Porsche 911s all my life.  I’m thrilled to hear about Tesla and I concur that the Audi has a nice interior and is lacking in every other important aspect. Range, speed, tech, weight, price. My expert car mind tells me it is a loser. It takes a lot of kool aid to think otherwise but I get that banning opinions to the contrary helps a lot. Cheers

Very simple: not your decision. Also: last warning. Refrain from posting stuff like the above. This is not acceptable here.

 

Lol. 😙. Cheers and good luck. Auf wiedersehen. I don’t need threats to ban my speech.  You should be ashamed of yourself.  This forum is officially dying and dead.  Not appropriate for me to spend another minute posting on this site.  To those who have been my friend - thank you very much. 

We don't accept posts drawing analogies to the Third Reich etc. This is inappropriate and will be taken off the board immediately. You should be ashamed of yourself. 

I will monitor what happens here in the next few days but the lack of self moderation from the moderators is disturbing, just because they do not agree with others opinion does not mean they can be offensive and shove their own to the members of this forum.

Again, some here have too much vested interest to make a startup like Tesla succeed, and it clearly shows. I try to have a very open mind and try to understand others opinions, then make my own decision. Not enough people here do that, including moderators, for this site to function properly. Having to ban politics was a bad decision already showing this place could not handle a heated partisan discussion. The Tesla thread is the nail in the coffin, exactly the same is happening. The problem is not “politics”, it is the core moderation of this place.

SciFrog:

I will monitor what happens here in the next few days but the lack of self moderation from the moderators is disturbing, just because they do not agree with others opinion does not mean they can be offensive and shove their own to the members of this forum.

Again, some here have too much vested interest to make a startup like Tesla succeed, and it clearly shows. I try to have a very open mind and try to understand others opinions, then make my own decision. Not enough people here do that, including moderators, for this site to function properly. Having to ban politics was a bad decision already showing this place could not handle a heated partisan discussion. The Tesla thread is the nail in the coffin, exactly the same is happening. The problem is not “politics”, it is the core moderation of this place.

This forum will not tolerate inappropriate posts, including but not limited to, analogies to Third Reich etc. One would assume that this goes without saying but apparently this is not the case.

On another note: Tesla posts are getting more and more boring if they are filling pages full of text. Can you remember the last time there were long threads on the latest Ford, BMW 5 series etc.? I cannot. Because rennteam is about performance and high-end cars. It is just boring to reread the same stuff on middle class sedans/SUVs. It does not make a difference if these have a conventional engine or are EV 

MKSGR:

This forum will not tolerate inappropriate posts, including but not limited to, analogies to Third Reich etc. 

I did not see this, presumably because it has been deleted. It is,of course, completely out of order.

crayphile:

MKSGR:

This forum will not tolerate inappropriate posts, including but not limited to, analogies to Third Reich etc. 

I did not see this, presumably because it has been deleted. It is,of course, completely out of order.

I feel so too 

Whoopsy:

There really is no need for all the hostility from both sides. Of the Tesl people would just stop over ‘promoting’, the gasoline side would not have such a push back. Both sides can stay civilized. 

EV is not the future of cars, it’s the sort of future of transportation, very different thing. But governments around the world seems like they want cars to be transportation only.

 

Pretty much agree.

On another note let me kindly suggest, that moderators moderate. That is key to success for any Internet forum. I can understand that the Tesla thread is boring and provoking for a couple of members here, but the same is likely true for watches. So why not move it to the OT/Lifestyle section ?  
RT is a unique place, but it will not save the planet and will not create world peace. As such the very strong emotions are pretty much pointless and makes things worse for this community. 
2ct from a newbie 

Interesting to hear that German academics are studying the lifecycle impact of electric vehicles...  

German study questions eco-friendliness of electric cars

"Electric Vehicles are not a Panacea for Climate Change"‎

(17 April 2019)

Electric vehicles will barely help cut CO2 emissions in Germany over the coming years, as the introduction of electric vehicles does not necessarily lead to a reduction in CO2 emissions from road traffic. Natural gas combustion engines are the ideal technology for transitioning to vehicles powered by hydrogen or “green” methane in the long term.

Considering Germany’s current energy mix and the amount of energy used in battery production, the CO2 emissions of battery-electric vehicles are, in the best case, slightly higher than those of a diesel engine, and are otherwise much higher. This has been confirmed by a new study by Christoph Buchal, professor of physics at the University of Cologne; Hans-Dieter Karl, long-standing ifo energy expert; and Hans-Werner Sinn, former ifo president and professor emeritus at Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität München. The researchers carried out their detailed calculations using the concrete examples of a modern electric car and a modern diesel vehicle. In addition to CO2 emissions from battery production, they looked at alternative energy sources for electricity in order to calculate the impact electric vehicles have on CO2 emissions. They show that even with today’s technology, total emissions from a combustion engine powered by natural gas are already almost one-third lower than those of a diesel engine. “Over the long term, hydrogen-methane technology offers a further advantage: it allows surplus wind and solar power generated during peaks to be stored, and these surpluses will see a sharp increase as the share of this renewable energy grows,” Professor Buchal explains.

In their study, the authors criticize the fact that EU legislation allows electric vehicles to be included in calculations for fleet emissions with a value of “zero” CO2 emissions, as this suggests that electric vehicles do not generate any such emissions. The reality is that, in addition to the CO2 emissions generated in the production of electric vehicles, almost all EU countries generate significant CO2 emissions from charging the vehicles’ batteries using their national energy production mixes. The authors also take a critical view of the discussion about electric cars in Germany, which centers around battery-operated vehicles when other technologies also offer great potential: hydrogen-powered electric vehicles or vehicles with combustion engines powered by green methane, for instance. “Methane technology is ideal for the transition from natural gas vehicles with conventional engines to engines that will one day run on methane from CO2-free energy sources. This being the case, the German federal government should treat all technologies equally and promote hydrogen and methane solutions as well,” emphasizes Professor Sinn.

Publication (in German)
Buchal, Christoph, Hans-Dieter Karl and Hans-Werner Sinn, "Kohlemotoren, Windmotoren und Dieselmotoren: Was zeigt die CO2-Bilanz?", ifo Schnelldienst 72 (08), 2019

Details: http://www.cesifo-group.de/ifoHome/publications/docbase/DocBase_Content/ZS/ZS-ifo_Schnelldienst/zs-sd-2019/zs-sd-2019-08/11012019008003.html

PDF Download: http://www.cesifo-group.de/DocDL/sd-2019-08-sinn-karl-buchal-motoren-2019-04-25.pdf

Link: http://www.cesifo-group.de/ifoHome/presse/Pressemitteilungen/Pressemitteilungen-Archiv/2019/Q2/pm_20190417_sd08-Elektroautos

...  ...

"Electric vehicles emit more CO2 than diesel ones, German study shows"

(17 April 2019)

Electric vehicles in Germany account for more CO2 emissions than diesel ones, according to a study by German scientists.

When CO2 emissions linked to the production of batteries and the German energy mix - in which charcoal still plays an important role - are taken into consideration, electric vehicles emit 11% to 28% more than their diesel counterparts, according to the study, presented on Wednesday at the Ifo Institute in Munich.

Mining and processing the lithium, cobalt and manganese used for batteries consumes up a great deal of energy. A Tesla Model 3 battery, for example, represents between 11 and 15 tonnes of CO2. Given a lifetime of 10 years and an annual travel distance of 15,000 kilometres, this translates into 73 to 98 grams of CO2 per kilometre, scientists Christoph Buchal, Hans-Dieter Karl and Hans-Werner Sinn note in their study.

The CO2 given off to produce the electricity that powers such vehicles also needs to be factored in, they say.

When all these factors are considered, each Tesla emits 156 to 180 grams of CO2 per kilometre, which is more than a comparable diesel vehicle produced by the German company Mercedes, for example.

The German researchers therefore take issue with the fact that European officials view electric vehicles as zero-emission ones. They note further that the EU target of 59 grams of CO2 per km by 2030 corresponds to a “technically unrealistic” consumption of 2.2 litres of diesel or 2.6 litres of gas per 100 kms.

These new limits pressure German and other European car manufacturers into switching massively to electric vehicles whereas, the researchers feel, it would have been preferable to opt for methane engines, “whose emissions are one-third less than those of diesel motors.”

Link:  http://brusselstimes.com/business/technology/15050/electric-vehicles-emit-more-co2-than-diesel-ones,-german-study-shows

This research makes a lot of sense. Another focus should be energy lost on its way to the battery. Both factors make EV cars quite unattractive when you look at their efficiency. 

Boxster Coupe GTS:

"Electric vehicles emit more CO2 than diesel ones, German study shows"

(17 April 2019)

Electric vehicles in Germany account for more CO2 emissions than diesel ones, according to a study by German scientists.

When CO2 emissions linked to the production of batteries and the German energy mix - in which charcoal still plays an important role - are taken into consideration, electric vehicles emit 11% to 28% more than their diesel counterparts, according to the study, presented on Wednesday at the Ifo Institute in Munich.

Mining and processing the lithium, cobalt and manganese used for batteries consumes up a great deal of energy. A Tesla Model 3 battery, for example, represents between 11 and 15 tonnes of CO2. Given a lifetime of 10 years and an annual travel distance of 15,000 kilometres, this translates into 73 to 98 grams of CO2 per kilometre, scientists Christoph Buchal, Hans-Dieter Karl and Hans-Werner Sinn note in their study.

The CO2 given off to produce the electricity that powers such vehicles also needs to be factored in, they say.

When all these factors are considered, each Tesla emits 156 to 180 grams of CO2 per kilometre, which is more than a comparable diesel vehicle produced by the German company Mercedes, for example.

The German researchers therefore take issue with the fact that European officials view electric vehicles as zero-emission ones. They note further that the EU target of 59 grams of CO2 per km by 2030 corresponds to a “technically unrealistic” consumption of 2.2 litres of diesel or 2.6 litres of gas per 100 kms.

These new limits pressure German and other European car manufacturers into switching massively to electric vehicles whereas, the researchers feel, it would have been preferable to opt for methane engines, “whose emissions are one-third less than those of diesel motors.”

Link:  http://brusselstimes.com/business/technology/15050/electric-vehicles-emit-more-co2-than-diesel-ones,-german-study-shows

Wow, just... wow 

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

come on guys, pls read the fine print and not only the abstract 

MKSGR:

This research makes a lot of sense. Another focus should be energy lost on its way to the battery. Both factors make EV cars quite unattractive when you look at their efficiency. 

Actually it’s not the first research coming to this conclusion. EV cars are « locally emission free » at best. Though I am afraid we won’t see a fair competition between various concepts anymore as the green religion politicians have made the decision already.

--

Daily Driver 991 Carrera T (June 2018), Canyon Carver 981 Spyder, Track Machine 997 GT3

There was another Swedish study I believe not long ago that arrived at a similar conclusion. 

11-15 tonnes of CO2 emissions to make a Tesla battery? that is ridiculous... that is not counting the CO2 emitted to generate the electricity they use... zero emissions, what a farce.

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

here it is

https://www.autovistagroup.com/news-and-insights/swedish-study-calls-smaller-ev-batteries-finds-tesla-more-polluting-8-year-old

--

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

The issue of CO2 emissions and vehicle production is a very interesting topic and one that I wish a couple of my relatives understood.  They constantly are updating their hybrids to maximize their fuel savings, yet they never factor in the harmful effects of building vehicles.  

Interesting EV read on Bloomberg.

And this from today:

https://earther.gizmodo.com/the-dirty-truth-about-green-batteries-1833922990

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

CO2 is just one element. Particles, noise, smell, can all be seen as pollution. Plus the trend is clear that more and more electricity will be generated with less producing CO2 methods. Green diehards with a house produce their own electricity by now...

Personally I did not factor in the green element when buying the X, it is just the best vehicle to fit a certain need today 

When it rains, it pours...

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4254995-teslas-long-range-model-3-heavier-co2-footprint-toyotas-camry-hybrid

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

I agree that there seems to be very specific bias here. Evidence of this is supported by the moderators link to a Seeking Alpha article that is terribly incomplete. I'm pretty sure Carlos from Spain didn't really give much thought to the article before posting it. The article makes seriously flawed analysis due to either the bias of the writer or simply incompetence.

Did you notice the author counts charge losses twice for the Tesla incorrectly? Also, the author does not analyze what battery sizes cars will actually need. He makes the assumption that the correct comparison is between the most efficient Toyota Hybrid and the biggest battery pack Model 3. You can easily argue that the LR battery pack is not needed for the vast majority of people. Not everyone needs 700 hp V12 engines, just the same, much people don't the biggest battery pack in their Model 3.

The author also makes unfounded claims that the batteries will only last 120K miles whereas Tesla said they should last 300K-500K miles and likely will be repurposed in the future rather than just scrapped. BEVs only become cleaner and cleaner compared to ICEs as they are used. Over the long-run, they will be much cleaner.

So why post an article that is so flawed?

People seem to forget that it took 100 years to create that hybrid Toyota and VAG committed global fraud because they refused to improve their technology and make it cleaner.  For BEVs to even come close to ICE, this early in development, is a testament to what it will become.

“Disclosure: I am/we are short TSLA TROUGH LONG DATED PUT OPTIONS.”

from the above article 

These are not new facts, the same ideas were posted here on RT a while ago... and again, CO2 is only one part of the equation, plus they don’t count the CO2 to build the ICE engine and its R/D or the extra maintenance they require over time. Or oil that need to be recycled and such.

Funny enough this also shows how useless hybrids are 

MKSGR: 

Indeed, neither a Tesla nor an etron audi is high-end. These are middle class cars. Nothing that could be considered core for Rennteam.

I must ask then, why so many topics about things like Cayennes, Macans, AMGs, BMWs, Alfa Romeos, Boxsters, etc? None of these are really higher-end than Teslas or the e-tron. In fact, many of these are cheaper than a lot of Teslas or the e-tron...


I will refrain from posting anything more about Teslas in the Misson-E topic, but I really don't understand the hate for the brand and technology in general. Many very biased opinions here unfortunately.

They just refuse to see the forest behind the tree...

keithw:

MKSGR: 

Indeed, neither a Tesla nor an etron audi is high-end. These are middle class cars. Nothing that could be considered core for Rennteam.

I must ask then, why so many topics about things like Cayennes, Macans, AMGs, BMWs, Alfa Romeos, Boxsters, etc? None of these are really higher-end than Teslas or the e-tron. In fact, many of these are cheaper than a lot of Teslas or the e-tron...


I will refrain from posting anything more about Teslas in the Misson-E topic, but I really don't understand the hate for the brand and technology in general. Many very biased opinions here unfortunately.

Porsche is a core brand for this forum. AMG and high-performance BMW or Audi are also of interest to many as they are sportscars (or at least: very sporty cars) in many aspects today 

https://apple.news/AYBCrsbu5TFmpuJNMnoYQsg

Tesla also revealed that its Energy business, which is comprised of products like solar panels, the Solar Roof, the Powerwall 2, and the Powerpack, have generated a total of 13.25 TWh worth energy to date. This figure is far above the energy consumption of the company’s fleet of Model S, Model 3, and Model X, which have consumed a total of 5.26 TWh worth of energy to date.

SciFrog:

They just refuse to see the forest behind the tree...

I would see it rather as Tesla fanboys only seeing the tree, Tesla, and don't see the forest, the whole EV industry. 

With their over the top propaganda for Tesla, it is turning people off, not just it Tesla but the whole of EV,. 

They seriously need to tone it right down and accept that not everyone likes Tesla, not evryob eneeds a Tesla, not everyone is warming up it Tesla and EV so quickly

To most people, a EV, not just a Tesla, simply doesn't make sense, or the don't have that need for a EV. This is tje point that Tesla fanboys simply do not get.