Crown

MKSGR:

I don't think so. The Tesla does not have an "autonomous drive". It has some features that are low cost and low quality and that cause fatal accidents as many buyers are stupid and believe they can rely on these systems. Infotainment of Porsche will most likely be at least on par if not better. For example: how is the Burmester sound system in the Tesla? Non existent... Tesla is just cheap software, the hardware sucks in all categories.

And certainly, the Taycan will be by far superior to any Tesla in terms of driving dynamics. Tesla is cheaper. But that's all of the advantage, if you don't need a larger car at the price of getting an ugly minivan.

The Tesla Autopilot is actually an amazing driving aid. I know this after having tested it for thousands of miles. How much experience of it do you have?

Of course there have been accidents with Tesla. There are stupid people driving those cars just like with any other cars. Difference is that there is media attention for every single Tesla crash because it makes headlines. If someone crash some other car nobody cares.

I know a lot about the Porsche driving aids and the infotainment. Have also used the infotainment and autonmny features in Audi E-tron. Tesla is just way ahead in this area and those arguing in another way just haven't tested the systems in the real world and don't have any insights how far ahead Tesla is in the software department.

My tip for you is to chill down before you gain some real life experience. Based on your comments in here you simply don't know what you're talking about 

When it comes to driving dynamics, of course the Taycan will be far ahead of the Teslas. But anything else would be  extremely strange and no one will argue over this either 

lukestern:

I know a lot about the Porsche driving aids and the infotainment. Have also used the infotainment and autonmny features in Audi E-tron. Tesla is just way ahead in this area and those arguing in another way just haven't tested the systems in the real world and don't have any insights how far ahead Tesla is in the software department.

You certainly did not have a chance to test the Taycan infotainment, I assume. I.e. your reasoning does not make sense... 

lukestern:

 

For me it is the direct opposite and I just can't see the point with hybrids. Either get an EV or otherwise get a petrol car.

I enjoy the flexibility of never having to fill up my car and always wake up every morning with more than enough range to cover my daily needs. It's such an eye opener when you get used to it, but to understand you need to experience it for a few weeks. You need to have really extreme driving patterns to not gain the benefit if you have the ability to plugin overnight or at work at least a few times per week or even better having a  wall charger in your garage and being plugged in every night.

I'm sure we will see many positive reports in here from coming Taycan owners when they start to realize the real world benefits and experience the instant torque in an EV. When these positive words are coming, the ball will start to roll faster.

you know, if you are not blinded by the EV novelty and step back and take a look at the big picture, you will realized you actually lost all flexibility. You are forever tied to the wall socket.

A hybrid gives you the flexibility of either filling up at a gas station or plug it in at a charging station or charging at home.

With a hybrid, I am not required to plug it in at least a couple times a week, I can go years without plugging it in, or I can do that’s every night, the choice is mine, not the car’s. With a EV you have become a slave to it, when it tells you to plug him in, you HAVE to obey. You do not have a choice anymore. Just like ICE cars, they tell their drivers when to fill up and the driver has no choice, 

A hybrid gives the choice back to the driver.

Whoopsy:

A hybrid gives the choice back to the driver.

I may have got this wrong, but were you not a proponent of the hybrid is the worst of all worlds? Added weight with a less powerful engine (in most cases). What happened ?

I believe Nick is referring specifically to "performance hybrids" like the Panamera Turbo S Hybrid, as opposed to eco hybrids with small ICE engines for good milage.

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

French Sport Auto, a very reputable and connected sport car magazine, made a direct comparaison between the Panamera turbo and the EHybird turbo S. They picked the regular turbo mostly for weight reasons and driving feel.

MKSGR, you post about infotainment, software and driving aids (ie autopilot) clearly shows you are either misinformed or disingenuous.

The moment you guys start hearing me go on about the infotainment system and praising driving aids of a car instead of the driving dynamics or engine characteristics, its the moment you need to shoot me and end my misery please... 

--

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

Carlos from Spain:

The moment you guys start hearing me go on about the infotainment system and praising driving aids of a car instead of the driving dynamics or engine characteristics, its the moment you need to shoot me and end my misery please... 

--

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

 yes yes. For me that would include color and interior options discussions.  And who cares about panel gaps. 

Sidney:

Hi all!

Regarding leasing ... I just checked a 992 leasing directly at Porsche  ... the leasing factor is 1,7 (zero deposit / 36m).

I guess their leasing factor on Taycan will be not lower than a 992 ... for sure .... rather 1,8 than 1,7.

This is terrible high ... at the moment my i8 has a factor of fair 1,3 .... you can get an i3 with even 0,95 factor (including subsidies).  

 

Any ideas how to lease Taycan with a reasonable factor?

--

 

-----------------------------------

 

BMW i8 * RRS 

Now you know why I chose an E63 S AMG over the planned Cayenne Turbo.  

Same price (around 165k EUR), E63 S costs me 1599 a month (incl. VAT, no initial payment, 60000 km in 3 years), the Cayenne Turbo would have been 2300 (after a huge discount!) a month for 3 years and 45000 km only.

Porsche Financial doesn't really offer good lease rates, especially not for new products. Lamborghini also uses Porsche Financial, which is a huge problem. I got a big discount for my Huracan Performance order and the lease rate would be acceptable (after some tough negotiations) but I am seriously thinking about buying the car instead because I think the leasing is not cheap (factor 1.2, they were somewhere around 1.6 or so), at least not at a level I would really want it to be (factor 1 or under).

Try a non-manufacturer related lease company like ALD Autoleasing (there are others), they usually have better offers. Ask your dealer as well, sometimes they work with other lease companies as well.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (May 2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

crayphile:

Whoopsy:

A hybrid gives the choice back to the driver.

I may have got this wrong, but were you not a proponent of the hybrid is the worst of all worlds? Added weight with a less powerful engine (in most cases). What happened ?

I think that was Scifrog or Luke that said hybrid is the worse of both world. 

And yes as Carlos have said, performance hybrids, not eco hybrids, are the ones I like and support. 

Normally performance cars are bad on gas, but with the addition of a hybrid system, that will be a moot point, it can be as eco friendly as anyone ever wanted inside the city but the performance stays, and even enhanced with the hybrid system when one opens it up.

the weight issue people always talked about is really a moot point when the car is properly tuned. Look no farther than the 918. It is a pig on paper, everyone says it’s a pig and too heavy, but in it’s era, nothing is faster. The Panamera Turbo S is also along the same line. I rode in one on track, it was doing stuff it has no business doing, not a full sized sedan with 4 adults in it. It is no 911, but there isn’t another faster more exciting sedan on track. 

Funny how reviewers always have a preconceived notion of how a car will be like after reading the spec sheets but before getting into a car. They basically imagine the shortcomings while driving until it fits the preconceived expectation.

We are going to see so many "mild" hybrids over the next couple of years and while the word "mild" may indicate something harmless and slow, it is actually what many people call performance hybrid because it helps regular engines to perform better (acceleration for example), even if manufactures often use it for fuel saving (on paper) and other emissions/environmental control stuff. 

992.2 will get a hybrid, apparently all versions (not sure about the GT models yet but why not?!).

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (May 2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

RC:

992.2 will get a hybrid, apparently all versions (not sure about the GT models yet but why not?!).

Definitely the GT models too imo since this would be their solution for keeping the GT models atmospheric, it would not only avoid emissions regulations problems but also add the extra performance to match turbocharged engines without the lag and sluggish top rev range of the turbo.

The only issue is weight but turbocharging also adds weight and if the difference is not to much I would gladly accept it for the instant hybrid torque and atmospheric engine character and sound of a NA + hybrid combo.

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

RC:

We are going to see so many "mild" hybrids over the next couple of years and while the word "mild" may indicate something harmless and slow, it is actually what many people call performance hybrid because it helps regular engines to perform better (acceleration for example), even if manufactures often use it for fuel saving (on paper) and other emissions/environmental control stuff. 

This has certainly my view for cars that I would be interested in  - torque fill etc.

For the record, I am not a proponent of hybrids but they do make sense in a high end performance application, certainly in the 918, less clear in the Panamera E-Hybrid turbo S which already has a lot of torque with turbo engines.

Sorry but I have yet to try a properly tuned mild hybrid so that it makes sense, with the Cayenne E Hybrid as an example of how useless the tech is today (not good performer fuel usage).

SciFrog:

For the record, I am not a proponent of hybrids but they do make sense in a high end performance application, certainly in the 918, less clear in the Panamera E-Hybrid turbo S which already has a lot of torque with turbo engines.

Fuel consumption and emissions (on paper). It makes sense.

Sorry but I have yet to try a properly tuned mild hybrid so that it makes sense, with the Cayenne E Hybrid as an example of how useless the tech is today (not good performer fuel usage).

Many new cars use mild hybrids...better acceleration from a stop and better torque figures at certain revs.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (May 2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

 

Carlos from Spain:

The moment you guys start hearing me go on about the infotainment system and praising driving aids of a car instead of the driving dynamics or engine characteristics, its the moment you need to shoot me and end my misery please... 

--

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

then let's discuss stitchings 

Whoopsy:

lukestern:

 

For me it is the direct opposite and I just can't see the point with hybrids. Either get an EV or otherwise get a petrol car.

I enjoy the flexibility of never having to fill up my car and always wake up every morning with more than enough range to cover my daily needs. It's such an eye opener when you get used to it, but to understand you need to experience it for a few weeks. You need to have really extreme driving patterns to not gain the benefit if you have the ability to plugin overnight or at work at least a few times per week or even better having a  wall charger in your garage and being plugged in every night.

I'm sure we will see many positive reports in here from coming Taycan owners when they start to realize the real world benefits and experience the instant torque in an EV. When these positive words are coming, the ball will start to roll faster.

 

you know, if you are not blinded by the EV novelty and step back and take a look at the big picture, you will realized you actually lost all flexibility. You are forever tied to the wall socket.

A hybrid gives you the flexibility of either filling up at a gas station or plug it in at a charging station or charging at home.

With a hybrid, I am not required to plug it in at least a couple times a week, I can go years without plugging it in, or I can do that’s every night, the choice is mine, not the car’s. With a EV you have become a slave to it, when it tells you to plug him in, you HAVE to obey. You do not have a choice anymore. Just like ICE cars, they tell their drivers when to fill up and the driver has no choice, 

A hybrid gives the choice back to the driver.

Vs being forever tied to a gas pump? There are way more electrical outlets then there are gas pumps... Or we shoudl all go back to driving Stanley Steamers! Water is everywhere and just use wood to heat it!

Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region

SciFrog:

For the record, I am not a proponent of hybrids but they do make sense in a high end performance application, certainly in the 918, less clear in the Panamera E-Hybrid turbo S which already has a lot of torque with turbo engines.

Sorry but I have yet to try a properly tuned mild hybrid so that it makes sense, with the Cayenne E Hybrid as an example of how useless the tech is today (not good performer fuel usage).

The smartest hybrid would be one that the ICE engine is used as a generator to fill the batteries of an EV. Hyper efficient diesel running at a steady RPM, isolated from the rest of the car, load and driving at that moment. Really it's just a range extender for an EV humming along filling batteries for the electric motors to use. 

Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region

Mithras:

Whoopsy:

lukestern:

 

For me it is the direct opposite and I just can't see the point with hybrids. Either get an EV or otherwise get a petrol car.

I enjoy the flexibility of never having to fill up my car and always wake up every morning with more than enough range to cover my daily needs. It's such an eye opener when you get used to it, but to understand you need to experience it for a few weeks. You need to have really extreme driving patterns to not gain the benefit if you have the ability to plugin overnight or at work at least a few times per week or even better having a  wall charger in your garage and being plugged in every night.

I'm sure we will see many positive reports in here from coming Taycan owners when they start to realize the real world benefits and experience the instant torque in an EV. When these positive words are coming, the ball will start to roll faster.

 

you know, if you are not blinded by the EV novelty and step back and take a look at the big picture, you will realized you actually lost all flexibility. You are forever tied to the wall socket.

A hybrid gives you the flexibility of either filling up at a gas station or plug it in at a charging station or charging at home.

With a hybrid, I am not required to plug it in at least a couple times a week, I can go years without plugging it in, or I can do that’s every night, the choice is mine, not the car’s. With a EV you have become a slave to it, when it tells you to plug him in, you HAVE to obey. You do not have a choice anymore. Just like ICE cars, they tell their drivers when to fill up and the driver has no choice, 

A hybrid gives the choice back to the driver.

Vs being forever tied to a gas pump? There are way more electrical outlets then there are gas pumps... Or we shoudl all go back to driving Stanley Steamers! Water is everywhere and just use wood to heat it!

ICE engines are forever tied to a gas pump, just like an EV is forever tied to a socket, hence why hybrids make sense. 

There was way more gas stations than charging outlets and it takes way shorter time to gas up than to charge up.

Hybrids is the current king, best of both worlds. But in the future where technology can catch up and charge up a car fully in about 200 seconds, then a pure EV make more sense, but only inn places where electricity is renewable.

RC:

SciFrog:

For the record, I am not a proponent of hybrids but they do make sense in a high end performance application, certainly in the 918, less clear in the Panamera E-Hybrid turbo S which already has a lot of torque with turbo engines.

Fuel consumption and emissions (on paper). It makes sense.

Sorry but I have yet to try a properly tuned mild hybrid so that it makes sense, with the Cayenne E Hybrid as an example of how useless the tech is today (not good performer fuel usage).

Many new cars use mild hybrids...better acceleration from a stop and better torque figures at certain revs.

Performance too.

550HP in the regular Panamera Turbo seems a lot already, but the Turbo S with the 680HP hybrid drivetrain BLOWS the regular Turbo out of the water completely. It's 2 completely different car.

Here is the funny thing, on track, one drives the hybrid more like a NA car, as the instant electric torque gives it instant throttle reactions, no need to spool up. Driving the turbo means standing on the gas a fraction sooner to build the boost.

French Sport Auto did not feel the difference between the two was big enough to matter...

Whoopsy:

RC:

SciFrog:

For the record, I am not a proponent of hybrids but they do make sense in a high end performance application, certainly in the 918, less clear in the Panamera E-Hybrid turbo S which already has a lot of torque with turbo engines.

Fuel consumption and emissions (on paper). It makes sense.

Sorry but I have yet to try a properly tuned mild hybrid so that it makes sense, with the Cayenne E Hybrid as an example of how useless the tech is today (not good performer fuel usage).

Many new cars use mild hybrids...better acceleration from a stop and better torque figures at certain revs.

 

Performance too.

550HP in the regular Panamera Turbo seems a lot already, but the Turbo S with the 680HP hybrid drivetrain BLOWS the regular Turbo out of the water completely. It's 2 completely different car.

Here is the funny thing, on track, one drives the hybrid more like a NA car, as the instant electric torque gives it instant throttle reactions, no need to spool up. Driving the turbo means standing on the gas a fraction sooner to build the boost.

 

 

And still...my E63 S without a hybrid system is faster...  OK, granted that Mercedes is a bit conservative about their (stock) power figures (to say at least) but in the case of the Panamera Turbo S, I really don't see much of a (performance) advantage, more of an efficiency advantage for such a powerful car. 

How much fuel does your Panamera Turbo S eat when you push it hard (I know it is difficult in Canada)? When I drive my E63 S in Individual mode (everything set to Sport+, just engine response to comfort), the car consumes around 16 l / 100 km on average. When I drive the car in Sport+ mode, I easily hit over 26 l / 100 km. Not really fun. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (May 2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

RC:

Whoopsy:

RC:

SciFrog:

For the record, I am not a proponent of hybrids but they do make sense in a high end performance application, certainly in the 918, less clear in the Panamera E-Hybrid turbo S which already has a lot of torque with turbo engines.

Fuel consumption and emissions (on paper). It makes sense.

Sorry but I have yet to try a properly tuned mild hybrid so that it makes sense, with the Cayenne E Hybrid as an example of how useless the tech is today (not good performer fuel usage).

Many new cars use mild hybrids...better acceleration from a stop and better torque figures at certain revs.

 

Performance too.

550HP in the regular Panamera Turbo seems a lot already, but the Turbo S with the 680HP hybrid drivetrain BLOWS the regular Turbo out of the water completely. It's 2 completely different car.

Here is the funny thing, on track, one drives the hybrid more like a NA car, as the instant electric torque gives it instant throttle reactions, no need to spool up. Driving the turbo means standing on the gas a fraction sooner to build the boost.

 

 

And still...my E63 S without a hybrid system is faster...  OK, granted that Mercedes is a bit conservative about their (stock) power figures (to say at least) but in the case of the Panamera Turbo S, I really don't see much of a (performance) advantage, more of an efficiency advantage for such a powerful car. 

How much fuel does your Panamera Turbo S eat when you push it hard (I know it is difficult in Canada)? When I drive my E63 S in Individual mode (everything set to Sport+, just engine response to comfort), the car consumes around 16 l / 100 km on average. When I drive the car in Sport+ mode, I easily hit over 26 l / 100 km. Not really fun. 

Fuel usage is a moot point now, with all these people switching over to EV and stuff, I will not let their fuel quota go to waste! 

I hardly push cars on the street, got a track for that. But for my daily usage, which is basically 100% city, the Cayenne Turbo S will do around 17l/100km, I imagine the Panamera Turbo S with the smaller engine, even in gasoline mode only, will do perhaps 15-16l/100km. The 918 can do perhaps 5l/100km if I use it in hybrid mode, 14-ish l/100km in gasoline mode, so in hybrid mode I think the Panamera Turbo S will do maybe the same 5ish l/100km?

My Aston is a pig, it averaged perhaps 24l /100km, the Exclusive do around 15-16l /100km for comparison, which is nice consider the Golf R with the much smaller engine still needs 14ish l/100km. The 911R does around 17l /100km, the 4C I think is 13l /100km. My Honda Ridgeline had been doing 13l /100km.

Wow, Porsche certainly builds fuel efficient cars because getting under 20 l / 100 km for my E63 S is only possible if I keep it really slow (normal driving). 

My wife's C63 S Cab is even more extreme: She drives the car at 13 l / 100 km (mixed city/country road driving) but every time I drive it (Sport+ mode of course ), I barely get it under 24 l / 100 km. She can drive a whole week on a single fuel up and it takes me only a trip to Munich and back home to empty the fuel tank.  

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (May 2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

Well, Porsche do start off with a smaller engine to begin with, and in normal mode the PDK upshifts like crazy, it can't wait to get to 7th gear. But at least the gearbox logic is smart enough to realize what the driver wants and the downshifts happens very quickly also.

But funny thing is, I don't really see a big difference in mileage on the Cayenne whether I drive in normal or sport. Sport mode capped the gear change to 7th only and not use 8th but thta doesn't really make a difference in city driving. 

Whoopsy:

Well, Porsche do start off with a smaller engine to begin with, and in normal mode the PDK upshifts like crazy, it can't wait to get to 7th gear. But at least the gearbox logic is smart enough to realize what the driver wants and the downshifts happens very quickly also.

But funny thing is, I don't really see a big difference in mileage on the Cayenne whether I drive in normal or sport. Sport mode capped the gear change to 7th only and not use 8th but thta doesn't really make a difference in city driving. 

 

Are you going to get the Cayenne Turbo S for yourself? 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (May 2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

RC:

Whoopsy:

Well, Porsche do start off with a smaller engine to begin with, and in normal mode the PDK upshifts like crazy, it can't wait to get to 7th gear. But at least the gearbox logic is smart enough to realize what the driver wants and the downshifts happens very quickly also.

But funny thing is, I don't really see a big difference in mileage on the Cayenne whether I drive in normal or sport. Sport mode capped the gear change to 7th only and not use 8th but thta doesn't really make a difference in city driving. 

 

Are you going to get the Cayenne Turbo S for yourself? 

Did you mean the new one? I am quite happy with my current Cayenne Turbo S. Apert from drinking oil like there is no tomorrow, everything is perfect. Very different experience than Scifrog and his Cayenne.

I pretty much got this car just about the same time as I got the SVR. The SVR had bee constantly going back to fix everything. Mostly it's the trims keep falling off. Almost feel like the whole car is being put together by 3 year olds.

Pretty much confirms my idea that anything from Land Rover are shit. Made like shit and drive like shit. 

Maybe apart from the Defender. 

Bloomberg on the death of the German ICE.  https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2019-bmw-electric-car-german-engines/

CGX car nut:

Bloomberg on the death of the German ICE.  https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2019-bmw-electric-car-german-engines/

To be honest, I wouldn't want to be in the car business right now. Very unpredictable and highly volatile in my opinion. Those who want to survive need to invest tons of money and even they could be "wrong" in the end.

I am really wondering about Fiat-Chrysler's strategy because it seems they are one of the car companies not really doing much about EVs right now, other than buying CO2 "rights" from Tesla. Not sure this is going to work for them longterm...or even short-term. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (May 2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

CGX car nut:

Bloomberg on the death of the German ICE.  https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2019-bmw-electric-car-german-engines/

Interesting article; thanks for sharing. I wouldn't be surprised if Mercedes and BMW will merge in one way or another