Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: 964 america roadster - Page1

Nov 16, 2002 10:26:09 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002

German SPORT AUTO comment on Cayenne S and Turbo

I try a little translation:

"We want to terminate the illusion which has been grown in the past that Porsche is able to do wonders and make a sportscar out of a 2.3 t heavy, 4WD car: the Cayenne is definetely no sportscar, neither the S nor the Turbo.
The Turbo is for it's size and weight pretty fast and agile, no doubt about it. But speeds over 200 kph and full throttle usage take it's tribute...30 l fuel /100 km and even more have to be taken in consideration when driving fast.
Surprisingly, the Cayenne convinces mostly off-road due to it's intelligent PTM traction system."

Again, this is just a short translation but it actually says it all.

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Nov 17, 2002 5:24:00 AM

Ron (Houston): Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Houston, TX , United States; Posts: 8812, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 10, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: German SPORT AUTO comment on Cayenne S and Turbo

In reply to:
...30 l fuel /100 km and even more have to be taken in consideration when driving fast.

Just curious, how much is gas price in Germany or rather Europe in general?

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Nov 17, 2002 8:06:27 AM

FixedWing: Veteran; Loc:; Posts: 870, Gallery; Registered on: May 25, 2002; Reply to: Ron (Houston)

EUR 1.08/litre in Germany .. generally more elsewhere

There is quite a bit of price variation. Lux, Andorra and Switzerland are pretty cheap. France and Italy more than Germany.

But unless you go to Russia to fill it, whatever way you look at it the Cay thingy is going to be a bear to feed. Need more money than brains.

S.

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Nov 17, 2002 12:34:36 PM

dedam: Pilot; Loc: Holland , United States; Posts: 464, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 27, 2002; Reply to: FixedWing

Re: EUR 1.08/litre in Germany .. generally more elsewhere

Do you mean the artikel in Auto Motor aud Sport magazine

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Nov 17, 2002 9:29:01 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: Ron (Houston)

Re: German SPORT AUTO comment on Cayenne S and Turbo

Stephen is right. I pay around 1 EUR 12 cents (~ same amount in USD) at my gas station for 1 litre of Super Plus 98 octane fuel (which would translate into 95 octane US).
As far as I know, one gallon is 3.785412 litres. So this means that one gallon of 95 octane US fuel is around 4,24 USD(!) over here in Germany. Happy Americans, right?

The best quality fuel which is available over here is 99 octane (actually more like 100 octane in reality). This translates to around 96/97 octane US. This fuel is available at almost all SHELL stations. Race fuel is not available for the public, we also don't have higher octane fuel available at certain gas stations.
Cheapest is Diesel (Gasoline), one reason why Diesel cars have a huge success in Germany and especially in Europe.
Cars like the ML400 CDI (250 HP bi-turbo charged Diesel) have a huge success over here. It is sometimes funny to see a Diesel engine in a 80000 USD car (Mercedes S 400 CDI for example). People usually buy cars equipped with Turbo Diesel engines, power varies from around 110 HP to around 180 HP.
Mercedes AMG also just released two AMG Diesel models, the C 30 CDI Coupe AMG and C 30 CDI AMG.
The new VW Toureg with the 303 HP V10 bi-turbo charged Diesel engine will be a huge success too.

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Nov 17, 2002 10:27:49 PM

JayT: Newbie; Loc: SC, USA; Posts: 44, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 13, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: German SPORT AUTO comment on Cayenne S and Turbo

In US diesel is generally more expensive and not as available. I had an S400 for a rental a while back and it had wonderfull performance. I would buy the VW SUV with v-10 diesel if availabel in US.

Things may change here because California SMOG guy has stated that due to global warming diesels should be encouraged.

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Nov 18, 2002 12:52:27 AM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: JayT

Re: German SPORT AUTO comment on Cayenne S and Turbo

Well, I have to confess that I'm not attracted by Diesel engines, not even by high power ones.
I have a friend who wanted to buy a new Mercedes ML 400 CDI a few weeks ago. He owned a Mitsubishi Pajero TD before and wanted to have something more powerful for his family.
We met at his Mercedes dealer and he testdrove the ML 400 CDI. After the testdrive, he was sure that he wants this car.
He was always laughing about me because I bought a ML 55 AMG and he thought that this is SUV overkill and doesn't make sense. His dealer told him that he'd have to wait around 8 months for the ML 400 CDI, so the dealer convinced him to testdrive a ML 500 (in stock) too. After the testdrive, he was even more impressed and bought the ML 500 instantly.

The high power Diesel engines are nice but they're not sporty. They provide a lot of torque but they usually have a lag when starting from standstill. I testdrove the ML 400 CDI too and I didn't like it. Whoever spends so much money on a Diesel must be crazy. Saving money? Maybe. Environmental reasons? No need to buy a SUV.

My personal conclusion: people who buy a high power Diesel usually want to prove themselves that they save money. Doesn't make much sense to me. If I have the money to buy a ML 400 CDI, I'd have the money to buy the fuel for a ML 500 too. And the ML 500 is definetely more fun.

The new VW Touareg V10 Diesel engine is interesting from another point of view: it's standard power of 303 HP can be easily raised to 350 or even 400 HP due to the bi-turbo technology. This would be another thing I don't understand: a lot of ML 400 CDI buyers tune their cars to 300 HP and more (simply done with a ECU software mod and other minor mods).
So why not buying a ML 55 AMG instead?!

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Nov 18, 2002 4:19:42 AM

JayT: Newbie; Loc: SC, USA; Posts: 44, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 13, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: German SPORT AUTO comment on Cayenne S and Turbo

I think the intresting thing about the VW V-10 Diesel IS the HP available, with the torque.
I agree, normally if your were to look at the total cost of ownership (particularly in US with tlow cost of fuel) their is very little reason to buy a diesel.

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Nov 18, 2002 4:30:12 AM

JayT: Newbie; Loc: SC, USA; Posts: 44, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 13, 2002; Reply to: JayT

Re: German SPORT AUTO comment on Cayenne S and Turbo

RC, I am hard press to buy any M-B product at this time - tommorow I see my salesman and the GM about problems. My wife's S-Class and SLK 320 have had numerious problems. The S-Class is a particularly un-reliable product. I had an ML 320 which was also not particularly good (my present X-5 is almost as bad and the dealer and BMWNA are worse), this is why I am looking forward to they Cayenne, every Porsche (even first model year) have been outstanding in reliability.

By the way berfore I bought the X-5 I tried to negotiate on an ML55 but the dealers were not cooperative.

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Nov 18, 2002 1:51:37 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: JayT

Mercedes Quality

We had a lot of (minor) problems with the ML55. The worst part: some of the problems (like the gear jumping out and the power steering failure when driving for a long time in very hot weather) aren't always present and my dealer wasn't able to fix it. He actually doesn't think that there is a problem because I couldn't prove it to him.

Another problem (which happens again now): the suspension makes horrible clacking noises from the swaybars/shocks.
This is, as my dealer told me, due to extreme driving (an engineer from Mercedes was at my dealer and saw the tires...he couldn't believe his eyes

). "A SUV is no sportscar" my mechanic told me but I wonder why Mercedes is selling such a high power SUV if people aren't allowed to drive it fast.

I hope they'll fix that again on warranty (warranty already expired) because they already fixed it once.

On the other hand, we already have almost 40000 km on our ML55 and it never let us down. We've been to Eastern Europe with it, to Italy, to France...never let us down, never broke down. My wife also owns a SLK 230 which is unbelievable stable: the car is almost 3 years old, it has 28000 km and no problems whatsoever. Nothing.

I'm sorry to hear about your problems but I'm also curious to see what kind of problems the Cayenne will show especially in the first year of production. I get a very bad feeling when I remember the 996's first two years of production.

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Nov 18, 2002 5:52:40 PM

FixedWing: Veteran; Loc:; Posts: 870, Gallery; Registered on: May 25, 2002; Reply to: JayT

Diesel

The cost of diesel vs. petrol varies greatly in Europe. Here in Belgium there is a big difference. In Germany too. But in the U.K., for example, the situation is a lot like in the USA where diesel is very expensive.

It is a tax thing.

S.

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Nov 19, 2002 3:01:51 PM

EricAlain: Veteran; Loc: Paris, France , France; Posts: 1037, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 14, 2002; Reply to: FixedWing

Re: Diesel

Definitely it's a tax thing BUT diesel engines are more fuel efficient than their petrol counterparts by about 20%. So even if the price is slightly higher in the long run it's cheaper to burn fuel.

In Europe, diesel is clearly gaining market shares in all segments of the market including high-end luxury cars (S Class, 7 series.....).

Here in the US, California could well be the next "eldorado" for diesel engines. They realized the electrical vehicle was not ready whilst modern diesel engines are polluting less than petrol ones and the fume issue is now fixed.

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Nov 19, 2002 3:32:57 PM

zzboba: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Germany; Posts: 3115, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 8, 2002; Reply to: EricAlain

Re: missing particle filters

IMHO diesels aren't so clean at all. the big diesel manufactureres (VW, BMW, merc etc.) still don't use particle filters and due to this the particle polution caused by diesel engines is not to underestimate. i would rather stay some minutes in a closed garage with a running V6 cayenne than the V10 TDI

but keeping this aside, i'm quite shocked about the cayenne turbo's greed for fuel. german car magazine "mot" stated it uses an average 30l per 100km with sporty driving (but not going really fast...). this is IMHO really crazy. a pointless car, if you ask me. just my opionion, though.

regards,
zz

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Nov 19, 2002 6:22:31 PM

EricAlain: Veteran; Loc: Paris, France , France; Posts: 1037, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 14, 2002; Reply to: zzboba

Re: missing particle filters

I can't agree more, I would rather spend sometime in a closed garage by a Cayenne V8 rather than by the V10 TDI.

Particle filters are now widely available and PSA (Peugeot) is offering it across it's diesel range.

I'm affraid there is no miracle. To move a 2.5 tons car takes a lot of energy and turbo engines aren't famous for their fuel efficiency .... But 30l/100km sounds a bit too much.

I hope that my future Cayenne S will give me a mileage more like 17-20l/100km.

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Nov 19, 2002 11:47:48 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: EricAlain

Re: missing particle filters

In reply to:
I hope that my future Cayenne S will give me a mileage more like 17-20l/100km.

I guess some of you guys remember when I mentioned a Cayenne Turbo testdrive made by somebody I know very well a few weeks ago. You might also remember that this guy claimed over 30+ litres fuel consumption at speeds up to 270 on the speedo. I'm not surprised that car magazines confirmed that.

Regarding the Cayenne S: my ML55 AMG has almost the same engine with more displacement but practically the same power and not quite the same weight (I guess the Cayenne S is around 100 kg heavier than the ML55).
Well, when driving at full speed (around 250 kph on the speedo), I have a fuel consumption of up to 36 litres. YES.
When driving at normal speeds (normal speeds are around 130-220 kph) for me, I still have around 24-26 litres of fuel consumption on 100 km.
My average (driving city, Autobahn and country roads) is around 18-23 litres. Usually I'm happy if I can bring the consumption under 20 litres.

I think that the Cayenne S will be in the 20+ litres range, maybe a bit less. I'm talking about "real life" driving, not what Porsche claims on paper.

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Nov 20, 2002 4:10:24 PM

EricAlain: Veteran; Loc: Paris, France , France; Posts: 1037, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 14, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: missing particle filters

Thanks for your input. Anyway, it's no big deal in the US as gas prices are very low compared to Europe. For premium we'll pay in Florida US$ 1.6 per gallon (i.e. 3.8l) or EUR .42 per liter ...

I still think the best gas mileage is offered by the 911. Plenty of torque and power for very little gas ....
Actually my 911 (964 America Roadster) is giving me a better mileage (+10%) than my Audi A6 Avant Quattro which is underpowered !!!!

Bottom line sports cars aren't always gas guzzlers ....

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Nov 20, 2002 4:24:37 PM

zzboba: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Germany; Posts: 3115, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 8, 2002; Reply to: EricAlain

Re: 964 america roadster

never heard of a 964 america roadster... sounds very interesting. do you have any pictures?

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Nov 20, 2002 6:15:56 PM

EricAlain: Veteran; Loc: Paris, France , France; Posts: 1037, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 14, 2002; Reply to: zzboba

Re: 964 america roadster

The 964 America Roadster is just a 964 C2 cabriolet Turbo Look .... fully loaded with all the goodies available at that time... To say the least it wasn't a great commercial success because it was a very expensive toy.
152 were sold in the US between 1992 and 1993. The good news is, nowadays it's a desirable car which is selling at a premium (between US$ 8-10,000) to the "narrow body" ones.

When I bought mine, I wasn't aware it ever existed. I saw one for the first time at the Porsche dealership when I was browsing for a car and I bought it on the spot !!!! Since then I've been in love with it especially with the top down and the marvellous noise of the air-cooled flat 6.

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Nov 21, 2002 1:05:34 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: EricAlain

Re: 964 america roadster

Right, the America Roadster was available in the US only.
M64.01 engine with 247 HP, G50.10 gearbox, Turbo look.

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Nov 21, 2002 1:32:58 PM

zzboba: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Germany; Posts: 3115, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 8, 2002; Reply to: EricAlain

Nov 21, 2002 9:46:24 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: zzboba

Re: missing particle filters

Without comment.

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Nov 21, 2002 10:08:04 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: EricAlain

Re: 964 america roadster

Should look like this, right?

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Nov 22, 2002 11:41:12 AM

zzboba: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Germany; Posts: 3115, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 8, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: i would sign this!!

very good "ad", gets to the point. i have really no understanding why the german automakers are refusing to install the particle filters to their TDIs...

what is even worse is that (non-PSA) diesel drivers often think that they are very caring about the environment.

diesel = low fuel consumption = good for the environment

it's not that easy.

the media/press even seems to share this opinion, no one really seems to care. except greenpeace, the PSA group and us, of course

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Nov 22, 2002 2:29:05 PM

EricAlain: Veteran; Loc: Paris, France , France; Posts: 1037, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 14, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: 964 america roadster

Yes mine just looks like this one BUT it's a red (guard) with tan interior...

After 10 years it's still a great car. It looks like a new one and drives like if the car was just rolled out of the factory despite its 55,000 miles (90,000 km) on the odometer.

PS I'm sorry, I couldn't attach a picture of my car, the file was too big... (>120k)

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Nov 22, 2002 3:11:54 PM

Ohmar: Newbie; Loc: Switzerland & M-E; Posts: 4, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 22, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: German SPORT AUTO comment on Cayenne S and Turbo

Hi there,

I am new here so hi everyone.

I owned a Lamborghini LMA 002 until some time and I think powerful 4x4 should be assessed in a different perspective. They are by definition not sports cars.

They are for people like me and my friends having fun in rough conditions and soon thanking Porsche for it!
More seriously I will certainly get the CayenneS with some local modifications due to the environement here, and give it an ultimate test drive.

I will keep a look on your board, thanks in advance!

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German SPORT AUTO comment on Cayenne S and Turbo

Re: German SPORT AUTO comment on Cayenne S and Turbo

EUR 1.08/litre in Germany .. generally more elsewhere

Re: EUR 1.08/litre in Germany .. generally more elsewhere

Re: German SPORT AUTO comment on Cayenne S and Turbo

Re: German SPORT AUTO comment on Cayenne S and Turbo

Re: German SPORT AUTO comment on Cayenne S and Turbo

Re: German SPORT AUTO comment on Cayenne S and Turbo

Re: German SPORT AUTO comment on Cayenne S and Turbo

Mercedes Quality

Diesel

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Re: missing particle filters

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Re: 964 america roadster

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Re: thanks for the info!! [no text]

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