Crown

Not many care about sedans now that crossovers handle pretty much like sedans for 99% of the population. They are safer, more practical and often cheaper.

SciFrog:

Not many care about sedans now that crossovers handle pretty much like sedans for 99% of the population. They are safer, more practical and often cheaper.

Agreed on the 99%. I've been driving the GTC4 Lusso a lot this week and whilst its strictly not a sedan its a far more enjoyable experience than any crossover can ever hope to be. The four wheel steer makes such a difference versus the FF.

I believe e-tron GT will share same platform with Taycan. 

https://youtu.be/LkjDhaW6JXs

And 60% of components

The Audi is not even out and the specs are aleary outdated...

SciFrog:

The Audi is not even out and the specs are aleary outdated...

...in comparison with Model S or Model X maybe?

Are you 100% sure in what you are writing?

Well the only specs we have is range and acceleration...

SciFrog:

Well the only specs we have is range and acceleration...

Then its kind of presumptuous to say the Audi is already outdated no? after all, how the car drives, its interior quality, its performance in real life (how it sustains high speeds, range in cold weather, battery cooling performance, etc), its after-sale service, its reliability, etc. are more important than paper figures on straight line acceleration and a few miles up or down in range. Not saying its better on either, we still have to see. That said, with what I know about car companies, I know where I would place my bet on the long run...

--

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

After sales and reliability good from Porsche or VW?  And yes their tech (interface) is usually already not only outdated when it comes out but also will not be updated once the car is built.

No doubt handling will be better than Tesla as well as interior quality (but interior design is subjective). But obviously seeing how many they sell Teslas are more than good enough.

SciFrog:

After sales and reliability good from Porsche or VW?  And yes their tech (interface) is usually already not only outdated when it comes out but also will not be updated once the car is built.

No doubt handling will be better than Tesla as well as interior quality (but interior design is subjective). But obviously seeing how many they sell Teslas are more than good enough.

Have you seen the Tesla dealership and repair shop in Munich? I think my garage is bigger than their repair shop.  

Kidding aside, I think that Tesla will have it very very hard to find customers in Europe once Audi and Co. establish themselves in this EV market. Nobody in Europe really cares that much about 0-100 kph or drag races, people care about quality, Autobahn performance, range (of course), handling and service. Tesla is still a US company and Germans (Europeans?) usually don't really appreciate US cars, even if Tesla has a positive reputation right now.

In the US, Audi and Co. are well advised to offer some sort of gimmick driving mode, similar to ludicrous (Tesla). Why? Americans love this stuff and it is good for advertising. It wouldn't hurt Porsche to offer a "Turbo" mode or a "Warp Drive" mode for some spectacular ONE TIME acceleration but I'm afraid Porsche won't go for this, arguing that their Taycan handles way better than any Tesla but I'm afraid many Americans interested in EVs don't care about track times but about 0-62 mph times. We'll see...

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

If you try to sell an EV in the USA just by saying that ours handles better, you are cornering yourself. Teslas (as most if not all luxury cars today) handles good enough. Interior quality is also good enough but can and will improve with time. You all keep denying the fact that Tesla is the #1 seller in luxury segment in the USA.

Germans care about Autobahn, the rest of Europe doesn’t.

Could be a slogan, "Teslas... because they are good enough"    

... that won't fly in Europe though, like Christian said, 0-60 is not what sells here, what does is how it handles and drives, how it performs on a highway commute, its reliability and after sales service, the appreciation for quality interiors and quality build, etc...and the fact that it is american built doesn't help it either because of american car reputation on handling and quality. 

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

SciFrog:

If you try to sell an EV in the USA just by saying that ours handles better, you are cornering yourself. Teslas (as most if not all luxury cars today) handles good enough. Interior quality is also good enough but can and will improve with time. You all keep denying the fact that Tesla is the #1 seller in luxury segment in the USA.

There is no competition yet in the EV department...no surprise here. 

Germans care about Autobahn, the rest of Europe doesn’t.

True but this will change. One reason why I think that there will be a speed limit in Germany sooner or later. EV manufacturers need this speed limit to be able to offer good ranges for their EVs.  I doubt it is going to be 120 kph or 140 kph, rather 160 kph or 180 kph. This will be sold to the public as a "compromise".  It is just a matter of time but I don't really care, the Autobahn is not my favorite road anyway, this is something for American or Asian tourists. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

RC:

 

Have you seen the Tesla dealership and repair shop in Munich? I think my garage is bigger than their repair shop.  

 

Here , Tesla's are repaired at Audi 

And for the moment I see more Tesla's driving here then Cayenne or A6 , 5 series etc.... They are literally everywhere .

They are a huge success in Switzerland . But , yes, we are a bit of a different market then the rest of Europe 

--

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 

Gnil:

RC:

 

Have you seen the Tesla dealership and repair shop in Munich? I think my garage is bigger than their repair shop.  

 

Here , Tesla's are repaired at Audi 

And for the moment I see more Tesla's driving here then Cayenne or A6 , 5 series etc.... They are literally everywhere .

They are a huge success in Switzerland . But , yes, we are a bit of a different market then the rest of Europe 

--

 

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 

 

Switzerland.........Driving hell. Hence why Tesla is selling well 

Got a speeding ticket there off one of the speed camera, 87 in a 60. 260CHF.

SciFrog:

After sales and reliability good from Porsche or VW?  And yes their tech (interface) is usually already not only outdated when it comes out but also will not be updated once the car is built.

No doubt handling will be better than Tesla as well as interior quality (but interior design is subjective). But obviously seeing how many they sell Teslas are more than good enough.

Cars getting constant;y updated does't means it's a good thing. It's just means it was poorly designed and QC is bad to let out so many bugs.

Windows gets updated every week too, and I don't see people say Windows is the greatest, it's just, good enough.

Like Tesla in it's segment, there isn't really other alternative, de facto monopoly. 

Whoopsy:

SciFrog:

After sales and reliability good from Porsche or VW?  And yes their tech (interface) is usually already not only outdated when it comes out but also will not be updated once the car is built.

No doubt handling will be better than Tesla as well as interior quality (but interior design is subjective). But obviously seeing how many they sell Teslas are more than good enough.

 

Cars getting constant;y updated does't means it's a good thing. It's just means it was poorly designed and QC is bad to let out so many bugs.

Windows gets updated every week too, and I don't see people say Windows is the greatest, it's just, good enough.

Like Tesla in it's segment, there isn't really other alternative, de facto monopoly. 

Correct.  The over-the-air patching feature is nothing but a chimera to cover up the lack of a true product development cycle.   Musk has sold that as a way to provide the functionality and meeting customer demand just like a smartphone, yet a smartphone manufacturer opens its platform to app developers.  That hasn’t happened with Tesla.  An example of Tesla’s lack of development was cited in the Randy Probst/MotorTrend article on revising the Model 3’s Track Mode.  Porsche and Volkswagen Group, like the major automakers, have development facilities the world over; Tesla has its computer simulations.  One can be assured when purchasing an Audi e-tron or Porsche Taycan that those EVs meet the very same quality standards as every other Volkswagen Group ICE.   I doubt a Tesla would come anywhere near passing these stringent endurance and quality tests. 

RC:

SciFrog:

After sales and reliability good from Porsche or VW?  And yes their tech (interface) is usually already not only outdated when it comes out but also will not be updated once the car is built.

No doubt handling will be better than Tesla as well as interior quality (but interior design is subjective). But obviously seeing how many they sell Teslas are more than good enough.

In the US, Audi and Co. are well advised to offer some sort of gimmick driving mode, similar to ludicrous (Tesla). Why? Americans love this stuff and it is good for advertising. It wouldn't hurt Porsche to offer a "Turbo" mode or a "Warp Drive" mode for some spectacular ONE TIME acceleration but I'm afraid Porsche won't go for this, arguing that their Taycan handles way better than any Tesla but I'm afraid many Americans interested in EVs don't care about track times but about 0-62 mph times. We'll see...

This is EXACTLY what Porsche has done with their Turbo and the overboost function for years...

Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region

I was talking with Salim Ismail (Board of X-Prize, founder of Singularity University) Elon is on that board as well. We were talking about exponential growth cycles and how they are dismissed until too late and briefly chatted about Tesla and the thing that he mentioned about the car is that increasingly with that growth and the current exponential growth of driverless cars that Tesla should be looked at as as an App that happens to drive as opposed to a car in the historical sense. 

Very interesting conversation and he is fully of the mind that driverless cars are mainstream in 5 years and the vast majority of cars on the road in under 15. 

Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region

We have been talking about this for years. The Teslas are transport appliances. Of course we have a driver centric population here but many are completely missing the point and still cannot comprehend how Tesla beat all Germans in the luxury segment. Tesla has changed the auto industry in a very deep and meaningful way, and not just because of the EV powertrain. Service, distribution, sales, model lineup and interior design are a fresh breath of air vs the dinosaurs still hanging on to promises of flawed hybrids.

CGX car nut:

Whoopsy:

SciFrog:

After sales and reliability good from Porsche or VW?  And yes their tech (interface) is usually already not only outdated when it comes out but also will not be updated once the car is built.

No doubt handling will be better than Tesla as well as interior quality (but interior design is subjective). But obviously seeing how many they sell Teslas are more than good enough.

 

Cars getting constant;y updated does't means it's a good thing. It's just means it was poorly designed and QC is bad to let out so many bugs.

Windows gets updated every week too, and I don't see people say Windows is the greatest, it's just, good enough.

Like Tesla in it's segment, there isn't really other alternative, de facto monopoly. 

Correct.  The over-the-air patching feature is nothing but a chimera to cover up the lack of a true product development cycle.   Musk has sold that as a way to provide the functionality and meeting customer demand just like a smartphone, yet a smartphone manufacturer opens its platform to app developers.  That hasn’t happened with Tesla.  An example of Tesla’s lack of development was cited in the Randy Probst/MotorTrend article on revising the Model 3’s Track Mode.  Porsche and Volkswagen Group, like the major automakers, have development facilities the world over; Tesla has its computer simulations.  One can be assured when purchasing an Audi e-tron or Porsche Taycan that those EVs meet the very same quality standards as every other Volkswagen Group ICE.   I doubt a Tesla would come anywhere near passing these stringent endurance and quality tests. 

Tesla have a different approach compared to the traditional automakers. Having myself over 2 years experience of Tesla and their OTA approach I'd say it's a fab feature and the software itself has very few issues. Actually much less so than what I've experienced with other cars. Using systems in the Jag and Audi for instance feels like moving back in time several years and the systems are just too complex, heavy menu structures and just too much to grasp for Joe average.

Where the specs/real world results are disappointing is on range and efficiency where I really had high hopes for the traditional manufacturers to come out with more impressive specs this and the coming year... The Jaguar I-Pace is rated at 470km WLTP. The E-tron is yet to release official figures, but speculation has it at around 430km WLTP.

Look for instance at this recent test performed in Italy. Tesla battery, 100kWh. Jaguar 90kWh. The delta between Tesla and Jaguar will grow even bigger if the cars are driven faster. E-Tron will suffer the exact same issue. Unfortunately. The Model 3 will have even longer range than the Tesla S and better efficiency at high speed.

https://insideevs.com/electric-car-ev-range-test-rela-world/

Mithras:

I was talking with Salim Ismail (Board of X-Prize, founder of Singularity University) Elon is on that board as well. We were talking about exponential growth cycles and how they are dismissed until too late and briefly chatted about Tesla and the thing that he mentioned about the car is that increasingly with that growth and the current exponential growth of driverless cars that Tesla should be looked at as as an App that happens to drive as opposed to a car in the historical sense. 

Very interesting conversation and he is fully of the mind that driverless cars are mainstream in 5 years and the vast majority of cars on the road in under 15. 

The background technology is already here. There are cars from Rolls Royce and Porsche that reads the road layout from GPS and maps, add in travelling speed and adjust the suspension for up coming sections. 

And on empty stretches of road or parking lots, cars can drive themselves already. 

The challenge is adding in the obstacle element. Unexpected events that the car, well the 'system' needed to react in a split seconds. Human eyes and brains can process those pretty much real time and react, the processing power of Tesla's Autopilot or any other brands' systems cannot. Actually even humans a lot of time cannot even process that quickly and crash also. The currently deployed system has no chance.

The real world is not black and white, 1s and 0s like how processors like it, and humans are also unpredictable, unlike machines. Mixing in human drivers and automated system will never work. Computers are rational, when a calculated result doesn't work, the computer won't take it. Humans on the other hand have something called ego. There will always have people that has a big ego and would rather crash into you than let you merge in. How do one program a autopilot for that? Automatic yield to anything and everything? That seems safe enough, but it basically means a automated car will just be sitting in one spot forever without moving.

AI could help, but I believe we are at least 5 years away from that point. So mainstream in maybe 10 years. Majority cars like that? 50 years would be a good bet. 

The only easy way out would be to dedicate one lane for automated cars, then all the cars will be predictable, and the system can react that way. Easiest solution right now would be to confine automated cars in bus lanes, Buses are pretty much the same shape everywhere, easy for the system, be it optical or laser guided, to recognize and react to. But then it would not please the early adopters, where they will be travelling at snail speed behind buses and will be stopping and going with each bus stops. 

lukestern:

CGX car nut:

Whoopsy:

SciFrog:

After sales and reliability good from Porsche or VW?  And yes their tech (interface) is usually already not only outdated when it comes out but also will not be updated once the car is built.

No doubt handling will be better than Tesla as well as interior quality (but interior design is subjective). But obviously seeing how many they sell Teslas are more than good enough.

 

Cars getting constant;y updated does't means it's a good thing. It's just means it was poorly designed and QC is bad to let out so many bugs.

Windows gets updated every week too, and I don't see people say Windows is the greatest, it's just, good enough.

Like Tesla in it's segment, there isn't really other alternative, de facto monopoly. 

Correct.  The over-the-air patching feature is nothing but a chimera to cover up the lack of a true product development cycle.   Musk has sold that as a way to provide the functionality and meeting customer demand just like a smartphone, yet a smartphone manufacturer opens its platform to app developers.  That hasn’t happened with Tesla.  An example of Tesla’s lack of development was cited in the Randy Probst/MotorTrend article on revising the Model 3’s Track Mode.  Porsche and Volkswagen Group, like the major automakers, have development facilities the world over; Tesla has its computer simulations.  One can be assured when purchasing an Audi e-tron or Porsche Taycan that those EVs meet the very same quality standards as every other Volkswagen Group ICE.   I doubt a Tesla would come anywhere near passing these stringent endurance and quality tests. 

Tesla have a different approach compared to the traditional automakers. Having myself over 2 years experience of Tesla and their OTA approach I'd say it's a fab feature and the software itself has very few issues. Actually much less so than what I've experienced with other cars. Using systems in the Jag and Audi for instance feels like moving back in time several years and the systems are just too complex, heavy menu structures and just too much to grasp for Joe average.

Where the specs/real world results are disappointing is on range and efficiency where I really had high hopes for the traditional manufacturers to come out with more impressive specs this and the coming year... The Jaguar I-Pace is rated at 470km WLTP. The E-tron is yet to release official figures, but speculation has it at around 430km WLTP.

Look for instance at this recent test performed in Italy. Tesla battery, 100kWh. Jaguar 90kWh. The delta between Tesla and Jaguar will grow even bigger if the cars are driven faster. E-Tron will suffer the exact same issue. Unfortunately. The Model 3 will have even longer range than the Tesla S and better efficiency at high speed.

https://insideevs.com/electric-car-ev-range-test-rela-world/

 

Only time will tell.   

what also is creating some dodgy situation is the security breach in communication and interface with these new tech and full auto driving mode...because all system communicates together means you can hack them! ALL INTERNAL systems and AS WELL ALL OTHER EXTERNAL SYSTEMS AROUND

law is there and ready, tech checks and procedures not yet. 2025 is the starting of auto driving mode...at least in Europe. this is current forecast.

this is still great wish to claim Tesla changed the world as EV are currently under lithium ion batteries but fuel cell is great alternative as well...Cars all started first by EV and got forgotten because of government push for ICE engines. the tech is there since more than 100y...

we still forget that this new coming era is not settled yet as it all depends to customer acceptance of the new product.

I just follow a training of 4 weeks. no more secret with EV and future mobility

--

GT Lover, Porsche fan

991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

Cayenne GTS 2014

Cars talking to each other will at some point be necessary for self driving cars to be a safe to a point way beyond what humans can do.

Before that though, anti collision systems should avert most fender benders, especially on highways. I see one almost everyday, surely linked to the increased usage of smartphones while driving. These are completely avoidable if the car is allowed to brake hard and take over. I got rear ended a few months a go, that’s 3 times in 5 years. People don’t pay attention anymore.

SciFrog:

 but many are completely missing the point and still cannot comprehend how Tesla beat all Germans in the luxury segment.

You have to look at it from a broader perspective than just the area you live in, the world is a much bigger place, outside the US Tesla practically doesn't exist in the luxury segment...

Tesla has changed the auto industry in a very deep and meaningful way, and not just because of the EV powertrain. Service, distribution, sales, model lineup and interior design are a fresh breath of air vs the dinosaurs still hanging on to promises of flawed hybrids.

Not really, just the EV powertrain, it pushed the schedule of EV introduction a few years ahead. Service, distribution, model line up, etc all that remains unchanged in the industry and is actually an advantage for the industry, it is because they are not basically a start-up they have a wide sales and service infrastructure for their clients, and the cash, factories and R&D to plan and produce a model line up to their liking and not struggle to get one model out and not go bankrupt in the attempt like the Model3.

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

 I may be the only one who thinks that Tesla and Porsche will not be DIRECT competitors. I agree that Porsche will steal some Tesla customers, and that Porsche will lose some sales to Tesla customers who are faithful to that brand. Overall, I think both companies will sell substantial numbers in the EV market niche.

Wonderbar:

 I may be the only one who thinks that Tesla and Porsche will not be DIRECT competitors. I agree that Porsche will steal some Tesla customers, and that Porsche will lose some sales to Tesla customers who are faithful to that brand. Overall, I think both companies will sell substantial numbers in the EV market niche.

Fully agree and spot on 

Wonderbar:

 I may be the only one who thinks that Tesla and Porsche will not be DIRECT competitors. I agree that Porsche will steal some Tesla customers, and that Porsche will lose some sales to Tesla customers who are faithful to that brand. Overall, I think both companies will sell substantial numbers in the EV market niche.

No you are quite correct. 

Tesla right now has a de facto monopoly on EVs, so pretty much everyone is a direct competitors to them. 

But later on when other manufacturers enters the market en masse, Tesla's majority market share will get reshuffled. Actually that makes it the only loser in the market place, but they won't disappeared for sure, unless of course Elon ran it to the ground again and runs out of money, again.

When the Germans come, not just Porsche, Tesla won't be able to hold the high end of the market, the luxury market will not be theirs, they simply are not competitive against the better cars from Europe. But they could find a niche, near luxury market, like how Lexus and Acura are doing.

Nissan Leaf, GM's Bolt, in a way BMW's i3, and others to come will be taking the low end of the EV market, Tesla simply don't have the ammo to subsidize the EV side with more profitable gasoline side of manufacturing. 

What's left is is the middle segment, there are quite a bit of volume to be had, profit margin likely will take a hit but it's not a non-profitable segment, so they will still make money and if they manage well, they will survive very well. Just look at Samsung in the phone market, they conceded the high end to Apple, but there will still be enough people to buy the alternative high end phones from Samsung, just like there will be enough fanatics to stick to Tesla. Samsung also conceded the low end to the Chinese, but they also make some low end phones to stay in that game either, and Tesla will also have offerings to compete in that segment, but like Samsung, Tesla will make the majority of their profit in the middle segment. 

Carlos from Spain:

 Service, distribution, model line up, etc all that remains unchanged in the industry

Yup, the dinosaurs cannot change them. This is a massive advantage for Tesla.

There will be plenty of room for Tesla and Porsche since they will not be in the same segment. Porsche will be much higher $$ for the same car unless they destroy their lineup. When it comes down to Tesla vs Mercedes BMW or Audi, there the German advantage start to evaporate and that’s before Tesla even puts the resources in improving their interiors since they didnt’t need to.

Of course you have to see the rest of the world, Tesla advantage is evaporating in Europe since that’s not the markets their cars were designed for. Charging infrastructures, power supply of homes, autobahn, small roads and parking spaces and lower purchasing power will take time to overcome.