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    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    Bitko said:
    Nissan might not be cheating about 7.29 lap time but they are cheating their customers, making them believe that they can do that and still get away with it. The customers are ending up with a wrecked car and void warranty, way to go Nissan.



    I expect many of them have not had any damage to the car, but have probably turned of the VDC of their GT-R at one time or another (who doesn't turn off the electronic stability at some time even if its just to try the car without it) only to now find out they have a brand new car with a voided warranty... try selling the GT-R second hand now

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    Bitko said:...customers are ending up with a wrecked car and void warranty, way to go Nissan.



    ...just tell cheating car manufacturer Nissan, that you were rocking GTR, stuck in the sand on the beach, while sailing on the weekend ...


    OZRacing

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    There are few things that defy the logic and that's why there is so much of backlash against this Nissan claim. First the car is just TOO HEAVY to be doing that. And secondly, Japan is no poor third world country, where they can make things cheaper, and if I am not mistaken both cost of living and wages are much higher in Japan than Germany. So if the Japanese are claiming that they can make a car that can not only beat Porsche but a whole slew of other supercars and they can sell that car for fraction, do you really think you are getting quality. I don't doubt that the Japanese can make good cars, but if they do, it for surely won't cost you any cheaper, and then who would buy such a car from Japan with that kind of money, because brands like Ferrari or Porsche is just not about going fast, it is also about Pedigree.

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    GT said:
    The fact that the GTR is faster around silverstone when it is so much slower in the straights is very very strange to say the least.. Reason is that even if the gt2 is a bit slower in the corners (doubt that as well given rubber and weight) then the advantage in breaking should also be quite substantial give the nissan's pretty average brakes and.. err 300kg+ weight. I just can't see how the gtr would claw back so much time in corners to a gt2 unless.. the gt2 is really crap at cornering (it is not) or its was really wet..
    Something just does not add up here guys, sorry.



    Read the GTR track tests. Read the cornering speeds and data. The GTR does corner faster than its competitors despite its high weight. This is why the GTR is so fast on tracks.

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    AUM, seems like you wanna buy the GT-R, and it seems like you are trying to convince yourself more than anybody else over here that despite its sheer fugliness it is a good car. Once you convince us that you can retain your warranty after driving with LC only then I will say that it is even worth the comparison.

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    I don't understand why everyone is giving AUM such a hard time about the GTR. He has acknowledged the cars flaws (looks, quality, etc...) and is simply using test data (which may be based on Japanese market or ROW cars) to compare the performance of the GTR with the competition. The GTR has exceptional performance for its price and I would not be surprised at all if it was faster than the 997tt around most tracks. Having said that I'd take the Porsche in a heartbeat based on other aspects of the two cars.

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    Bitko said:
    AUM, seems like you wanna buy the GT-R, and it seems like you are trying to convince yourself more than anybody else over here that despite its sheer fugliness it is a good car. Once you convince us that you can retain your warranty after driving with LC only then I will say that it is even worth the comparison.



    The GTR is fugly.
    I don't use LC on any car.
    The GTR has outstanding performance. It is superfast on any track, but I doubt I would buy one. For a four-seat track car, I prefer the old CLS.
    But all kudos to Nissan for raising the bar. Let's hope Porsche can catch up with the FL Turbo

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Future GTR buyers please check post #37, this car has bad news written all over it

    http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=511371&page=2

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    oh boy

    ... they have shut down production?

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    oh boy

    ... they have shut down production?



    Temporarily, according to a report on a Japanese web-site www.GTR-world.net. Unfortunately, I do not read Japanese!

    Anybody here?

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    oh boy

    ... they have shut down production?



    Temporarily, according to a report on a Japanese web-site www.GTR-world.net. Unfortunately, I do not read Japanese!

    Anybody here?



    http://www.gtrblog.com/index.php/2008/10/10/nissan-temporarily-stop-taking-gt-r-orde?blog=4


    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    Porsche-Jeck said:
    I didn't read the entire thread, just want to add some observations from a crazy guy who recently tried to get below 7:30 with his modded 964 Turbo (993 GT2 engine tuned to 520 hp). For practise he booked a slot during the industry days at NoS and by chance Nissan was doing some fast laps with two GT-R. The cars were definitely not stock (especially enginewise). The GTRs could walk away from his 520 hp Porsche low weight Porsche on the straights, but he was not impressed by the corner performance. They clocked quite some laps all in the 7:35 - 7:40 mark.



    Addendum: the 964 driver did clarify that the two GT-R have been on slicks and the engines tuned up to 700 and 800 hp (according to the mechanics he talked to)

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    Porsche-Jeck said:
    Quote:
    Porsche-Jeck said:
    I didn't read the entire thread, just want to add some observations from a crazy guy who recently tried to get below 7:30 with his modded 964 Turbo (993 GT2 engine tuned to 520 hp). For practise he booked a slot during the industry days at NoS and by chance Nissan was doing some fast laps with two GT-R. The cars were definitely not stock (especially enginewise). The GTRs could walk away from his 520 hp Porsche low weight Porsche on the straights, but he was not impressed by the corner performance. They clocked quite some laps all in the 7:35 - 7:40 mark.



    Addendum: the 964 driver did clarify that the two GT-R have been on slicks and the engines tuned up to 700 and 800 hp (according to the mechanics he talked to)



    So these GT-R's were on slicks and tuned to 700+ HP and couldn't hit 7:29? Bizarre.

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    I find it hard to believe the GTR's were tuned to 700-800 hp when the trannys are failing even at 480-500 hp

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    SteveD said:
    Quote:
    Porsche-Jeck said:
    I didn't read the entire thread, just want to add some observations from a crazy guy who recently tried to get below 7:30 with his modded 964 Turbo (993 GT2 engine tuned to 520 hp). For practise he booked a slot during the industry days at NoS and by chance Nissan was doing some fast laps with two GT-R. The cars were definitely not stock (especially enginewise). The GTRs could walk away from his 520 hp Porsche low weight Porsche on the straights, but he was not impressed by the corner performance. They clocked quite some laps all in the 7:35 - 7:40 mark.



    We have been spending quite a lot of time with Nissan during the past few months, and we're running our GT-R Competition with them to allow a lucky reader to sample a GT-R on the 'ring for themselves.

    From what I understand the infamous lap time was set in ideal conditions using standard tyres on an unmodified car, however there are wider variations than you might realise in the term 'standard car'.

    Firstly we found that a japanese spec GT-R was quite noticeably quicker than a US-spec GT-R, also from within a batch of 12 US spec GT-Rs when lapped around Silverstone's GP circuit they were not all equal.

    The US spec GT-R accelerated on a par with the new PDK 997 C2, whereas the japanese spec GT-R we drove the following day was able to pull away from the 997.

    Tyre wise we found that the GT-R's cornerspeed was up with (and beyond) the 997 GT2 (fitted with Michelin Cups), but the GT-R was at least 10mph slower than the GT2 on the straights. Despite this straight line disadvantage the GT-R was still quicker around a lap than the GT2, and that wasn't due to tyres nor a modified engine.

    I'm looking forward to seeing how Nissan respond to Porsche's scathing criticism, I suspect it will be fun to watch..



    Do you mean that it's the Attesa AWD system which provide incredibly fast cornering speed?

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    eclou said:
    I find it hard to believe the GTR's were tuned to 700-800 hp when the trannys are failing even at 480-500 hp



    A whole lot of stuff doesn't make sense here, does it? Maybe they were there testing a new transmission.

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    deathnell said:

    Do you mean that it's the Attesa AWD system which provide incredibly fast cornering speed?



    Ultimately I guess that's part of the reason, it doesn't feel like alchemy just a very unfussed ability to carry more speed into a corner and get on the power earlier when exiting.

    I think the general sentiment that most people (who have experienced the GT-R) have is that its a very enjoyable and capable car, but not without its flaws. But then surely you wouldn't expect a flawless car for almost half the price of a 911 TT, but then again there is nothing within its price range that comes close to its talents and capabilities.

    We just finished our V8 saloons group test and will be publishing our conclusions in the next few days. We were quite pleased with the lap times that were set around Silverstone GP's circuit, but none of our 400+ bhp saloons got within 5 seconds of the lap time we set with the GT-R, not even close and they are all the same kind of price. That's puts the GT-R's pace more in perspective.

    Perhaps the whole GT-R vs GT2 debate is missing the point (although I do accept that Nissan started the debate going in the first place!).

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    SteveD said:
    Quote:
    deathnell said:

    Do you mean that it's the Attesa AWD system which provide incredibly fast cornering speed?



    Ultimately I guess that's part of the reason, it doesn't feel like alchemy just a very unfussed ability to carry more speed into a corner and get on the power earlier when exiting.

    I think the general sentiment that most people (who have experienced the GT-R) have is that its a very enjoyable and capable car, but not without its flaws. But then surely you wouldn't expect a flawless car for almost half the price of a 911 TT, but then again there is nothing within its price range that comes close to its talents and capabilities.

    We just finished our V8 saloons group test and will be publishing our conclusions in the next few days. We were quite pleased with the lap times that were set around Silverstone GP's circuit, but none of our 400+ bhp saloons got within 5 seconds of the lap time we set with the GT-R, not even close and they are all the same kind of price. That's puts the GT-R's pace more in perspective.

    Perhaps the whole GT-R vs GT2 debate is missing the point (although I do accept that Nissan started the debate going in the first place!).



    Thanks for your reply.
    You say that awd system is one of the reasons,and what about the others?
    Do you think GTR has a stiffer suspension setup than GT2?

    Nissan releases second GT-R video...

    NISSAN RELEASES SECOND GT-R VIDEO

    Nissan and Porsche row II - the sequel...

    "Porsche has clearly struck a raw nerve by questioning the Nissan GT-R's lap time, because now the Japanese manufacturer has released a second video. The footage shows the 7:29 lap of the Nurburgring as well as some off-track buildup where the 50kg of test equipment was loaded on board.

    A photo has also been released showing the stock tyres that were installed on the car, to dispel rumours the company was using special rubber. The actual lap starts about four minutes in and is unlikely to put a line under the whole sordid matter. Nissan and Porsche at the 'Ring: the story we all love to hate..."

    Nissan_GT-R_Nurburgring_Link


    Re: Nissan releases second GT-R video...

    Nissan releases second video? That video was uploaded by GTR blog months ago and it's just an extract from the July issue of Best Motoring.

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    deathnell said:

    Thanks for your reply.
    You say that awd system is one of the reasons,and what about the others?
    Do you think GTR has a stiffer suspension setup than GT2?



    The GT2 is 'very stiff', but the GT-R doesn't feel that far behind. The GT-R was certainly more rigid than a 997.2 C2S with PASM, and that's one of my complaints about the GT-R - you imagine it as a GT car set up for comfortable road driving but instead it feels like a stripped out track-car very similar in spirit to my lightweight M3 CSL.

    When driving a GT-R you hear stones pinging off the inside of the wheel arches, the chassis feels unyielding (although always stable) and it's really only a 2-seater despite occupying much more of the road than a 911. It's a bit of a conundrum the GT-R, I suspect some people will find it too hardcore.

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Did they turn off the Speed limiter off on that Japanese Spec GTR at the Nurburgring for that record run (which is modifying the car). This video of an Autocar test clearly show the GTR limiter in action.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo3PaTPFiiI

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    more real world GTR track results far from fantastic This from the past weekend NASA race at Eagle's Canyon. The GTR was slower than a Civic, an E36, RX7, Z06

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    We cannot rely on any one test to determine a cars true performance (even the most hallow Sport Auto Supertest). There are many reasons for lap times and other performance data to vary. In order to get a true indication of any car's performance we need many tests by many credible publications. When we have ten or more authorities all reporting similar results we start to have some certainty about a car's true performance.

    Testing of the GTR is still not complete but the results of the tests so far indicate astonishing cornering speeds and grip levels with lap times ahead of the Turbo and close to the GT2 (despite being slower in a straight line). When we deny this growing and conclusive body of evidence we start to look like flat-earth-believers who cannot come to terms with a new reality.

    A similar situation occurred with the release of the 997 Turbo. Most testers were disappointed with the car's tricky-at-the-limit handling. This provoked an avalanche of disbelief and outrage against the motoring press from Turbo lovers. Time has proven those reports to be quite accurate.

    Perhaps it is time for a more open and mature approach to the GTR. I do not like its styling, image, weight, size - and there are reliability questions. All of this can be debated according to personal opinion and preferences. But from a performance perspective the body of evidence from more than a dozen independent tests is clear: The GTR has raised the bar considerably.

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    The Sport Auto Supertest is the ultimate authority on Ring times. SA have been using the same driver (HvS) and testing procedures for years. This removes some of the main variables and lends the results credibility. But there are other variables, including track conditions, weather and driver familiarity that need to be taken into account.

    Many of us are eagerly awaiting the Sport Auto Ring time for the GTR. Many European sports car owners and fans want the time to be less than Nissan's 7.29 claim. We cannot tolerate an ugly Nissan being as quick as the best of Porsche. HvS is well aware of all this and must be under some considerable pressure to ensure that the status quo is not disturbed. HvS is also unfamiliar with the GTR and it is unlikely he can lap as fast as Suzuki on the same day in the same GTR. How many seconds difference is debatable. But Suzuki will certainly be faster.

    So even the SA test will not be conclusive and accepted by everyone and the GTR debate will continue until enough customer cars are at the Ring and the reality of its performance becomes evident to everyone. Stay tuned!

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    A similar situation occurred with the release of the 997 Turbo. Most testers were disappointed with the car's tricky-at-the-limit handling. This provoked an avalanche of disbelief and outrage against the motoring press from Turbo lovers. Time has proven those reports to be quite accurate.




    Can you still recall what Rennteam wrote about the 997TT? We were VERY critical towards this car. We were also sceptical when the Z06 hype peaked... Now we are sceptical regarding the GTR. I am sure we are right again

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    We cannot rely on any one test to determine a cars true performance (even the most hallow Sport Auto Supertest). There are many reasons for lap times and other performance data to vary. In order to get a true indication of any car's performance we need many tests by many credible publications. When we have ten or more authorities all reporting similar results we start to have some certainty about a car's true performance.

    Testing of the GTR is still not complete but the results of the tests so far indicate astonishing cornering speeds and grip levels with lap times ahead of the Turbo and close to the GT2 (despite being slower in a straight line). When we deny this growing and conclusive body of evidence we start to look like flat-earth-believers who cannot come to terms with a new reality.

    A similar situation occurred with the release of the 997 Turbo. Most testers were disappointed with the car's tricky-at-the-limit handling. This provoked an avalanche of disbelief and outrage against the motoring press from Turbo lovers. Time has proven those reports to be quite accurate.

    Perhaps it is time for a more open and mature approach to the GTR. I do not like its styling, image, weight, size - and there are reliability questions. All of this can be debated according to personal opinion and preferences. But from a performance perspective the body of evidence from more than a dozen independent tests is clear: The GTR has raised the bar considerably.



    Very well said and I believe you sum up the situation perfectly.

    The only change I would make to your statement is that whilst the GT-R has indeed raised the bar, this is not to say it is unbeatable or that somehow it defies any laws of physics.

    Compared to its peers (i.e. those cars of a similar power/weight) it laps a circuit considerably quicker. This elevates it into the context of the class above (i.e. 911 GT2, Ferarri Scuderia) but doesn't make it a competitor, there are many more factors that determine the appeal of a supercar.

    From my unbiaised perspective (and experience of all the cars in discussion) I see the GT-R's existence as being wholeheartedly positive, Nissan have provided an option to customers who would otherwise be unable to afford an uber-Porsche, and in doing so have pressured established supercars to raise their game in future.

    Sounds like good news whichever side of the fence you sit on.

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    AUM said:
    A similar situation occurred with the release of the 997 Turbo. Most testers were disappointed with the car's tricky-at-the-limit handling. This provoked an avalanche of disbelief and outrage against the motoring press from Turbo lovers. Time has proven those reports to be quite accurate.




    Can you still recall what Rennteam wrote about the 997TT? We were VERY critical towards this car. We were also sceptical when the Z06 hype peaked... Now we are sceptical regarding the GTR. I am sure we are right again



    You seem to have missed the point which is that those that discount test evidence in favour of their assumptions cannot be taken seriously.

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Track Report - My GT-R compared to my GT3

    http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/106151-track-report-my-gt-r-compared-my-gt3.html

    Took the GT-R and my 997 GT3 to the local track. Until now I had not driven both cars at the same track on the same day.

    The GT3 is clearly the "track natural" of the two. Spectacular handling - very flat, great balance, amazing grip, smooth transitions, perfectly weighted. Decent power (could handle more). Intoxication sound at 8400 rpm! Feels very solid, but not too heavy. As I had expected, the GT3 was better at turn-in and corner entry. No understeer at all. Very precise. (Surprisingly the brakes felt soft, with lots of pedal travel after driving the GT-R. Never noticed this when I am only driving the GT-3).

    The GT-R was the torquier/stronger of the two. Very easy to drive fast - almost effortless. Power was intoxicating as was the easy/fast/smooth shifting from the transmission - can actually shift mid-turn with the accelerator floored and still not upset the car. While the GT-R feels heavy and tends to understeer going into the turns, once settled in the turn, its ability to power out of the turns, without drama was excellent.The GT-R was clearly better from mid-turn to corner exit, and this tended to give the GT-R a higher speed at the end of each straight section post-turn.

    We ran the cars simultaneously with my son and I taking turns in each car and swapping leader/follower, and concluded that the cars are pretty evenly matched in the hands of experienced but non-pro drivers. In the final analysis, the GT-R is probably a touch quicker, because of it superior corner exit speeds and ability to put power down ie. brilliant 4 wheel drive system, and inspires more confidence since it tends to be more stable, error resistant, and the paddle shifters allow one to fully concentrate on braking and turning.
    The GT-3 is more engaging and more of a natural "track car". The GT-R uses its technology to comensate for its inherent weight disadvantage.

    All in all, two outstanding, if very different cars, quite closely matched.

    We aslo had a 996 Twin Turbo on the track. It performed quite well, achieving quite good terminal speeds at the end of the straights (felt as strong as the GT-R). However, it was no match for either of the other cars as a track car. It tended to understeer more, and its 4 wheel drive system was more of a disadvantage (undesteer, extra weight) than an advantage.

    However, as a reminder of how finely balanced the GT-3 is, up to 99.9%, on one of the turns late in the session, I was driving briskly, but not overly aggressive. I had the suspension set to stiff. Went over a small perturbation mid turn, on a turn that I have done probably 500 times, and the rear end instantly snapped, rotating me into the grass. My son, who was chasing me in the GT-R said there was NO indication that this was about to happen. Good reminder what 66% weight on the rear wheels can do once the pendulum starts to swing!!

    Anyhow, two great cars - and a lot of fun to boot. (If only I had not put the Z06 away for winter, it would be interesting to test the GT-R against it at the track.)

     
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