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    Sep 8, 2008 11:08:50 AM

    ezzie
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    ezzie
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    Reply to: Enzo II

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Quote:
    Enzo911 said:
    "Alonso was compromised by a bit of nonsense from the FIA -- stewards told Renault that Fernando had to let Klien past (again) due to yellow flags, then they changed their minds! Too late by then, Alonso had already ceded to Klien then had to pass him all over again."



    Is your point that the stewards may change their mind as in 2005?
    Hamilton, did let kimi overtake again, admittedly not out of choice when he slid off the track later that lap, before kimi spinning whilst in the lead to cede the lead again.

    As to those saying why 25 seconds. I assume, Its the time it takes to drive into the pits, do a 10 seconds stop and drive out of the pit lane.

    Regardless, the FIA should reverse its decision to salvage a semblance of credibility.

    Sep 8, 2008 12:33:12 PM

    Emperor
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    Reply to: ezzie

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Well F1 is on a downhill path to the bottom of sports if we can even call it that, and here are the reason:

    -FIA's pro Ferrari/anti-Mclaren nature
    -Ecclestone taking legendary tracks off the calendar like Silverstone and Australia.
    -Adding dull and boring street circuits on the calendar like Valencia and Singapore while planning to move F1 to Asia and emerging markets.
    -Restricting engine development and aerodynamics.
    -Planning to drastically the 300km race distance for each race.

    Sep 8, 2008 12:57:21 PM

    gangajas
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    gangajas
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    Reply to: easy_rider911

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:
    25 seconds was a totally arbitrary number designed to ensure that not only could Massa be deemed to have won but also that Heidfeld could be deemed to have come second too. Talk about 'engineering' ways to lessen the lead that Hamilton has over Massa in the Driver's Championship! The whole decision was an outrage. The stewards have lost all credibility in my eyes.



    It's funny to read all the conspiracy theories from the McLaren/LH side, really funny. Last year when LH got away with everything he did (crane, Fuji SC, etc.), absolutely no one of you where talking about double standards and FIA conspiracy (you have to remember that is not FIA's fault that McLaren were caught cheating, they even gave them the design of the new ECU!).

    Sep 8, 2008 1:24:44 PM

    SlvSurfer
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    Reply to: gangajas

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Oh well, even if he didn't do "anything wrong" look at it as a punishment for what he did in Montreal.

    Sep 8, 2008 1:56:20 PM

    ResB Offline
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    Reply to: Dr. Phil

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Quote:
    Dr. Phil said:
    Quote:
    ResB said:
    They did actually collide. (...)

    You're kidding of course, LH made his move initially and has his nose in front of KR, however, he had the wrong line totally so I don't know exactly what he was trying to do. It did however do enough to spook KR, hence the lock up and the eventual "slight collision" where LH decided to cut the corner, I think this was genuine and as not to cause a more serious incident.

    He did let KR past and perhaps did gain a slight advantage being in his slip stream and I think thats where the problem lies. I don't think the advantage was on the chicane. LH would have been all over KR at later stages so god only knows why he did it then.

    Agreed, but he had his race head on as opposed the tactical one.

    Ah well, LH still a bit to learn I think, but the Stewards inquiry was a little harsh I think....



    Hey Res.
    No, I am dead serious. Check out the frames I have collected.
    If we are talking about the same incident (?) it's pretty straightforward IMO.
    Classic racing, normal battle. LH tries to go around on the outside, but hasnt got the momentum or the line to pass coming into the chikane.
    Kimi brakes late as far as I can tell, and holds his line coming into the chikane.
    LH has to run wide to avoid a collision - one that would have been self-inflicted I might add.
    Unless you find it reasonable that Kimi should have run off the track to let LH pass, I think its fair to say, that LH made an attempt at passing that just didnt work out.
    He came out of the chikan in front of Kimi, but either didnt have the momentum, or chose to back of to avoid a penalty.




    Looking at your screen captures, even though there is a nudge I agree with what your saying. KR is well within his rights to do what he did apart from the nudge, but that looks as thought they are both racing, which is the point.

    The point being I think that LH let KR past before the start/finish line which LH was required to do, therefore relinquishing any advantage. The fact the LH caught KR unaware and sleeping when he past just shows in my opinion LH did nothing wrong. LH reduced his speed, proved by the telemetry records according to Ron Dennis. If you think LH had an unfair advantage due to slip streaming then this is a valid part of racing. Remember LH was side by side approaching the the chicane.

    Anyway we'll see what happens.

    Sep 8, 2008 3:40:29 PM

    reginos
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    Reply to: ResB

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Some good points here:
    http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=James_Allen&id=43872

    Sep 8, 2008 3:48:00 PM

    Ferdie
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    Reply to: reginos

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Quote:
    reginos said:
    Some good points here:
    http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=James_Allen&id=43872



    I agree...

    Sep 8, 2008 4:34:25 PM

    John H Offline
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    Reply to: reginos

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Quote:
    reginos said:
    Some good points here:
    http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=James_Allen&id=43872



    Good evaluation...but the conclusion remains the same.

    FIA (Fuckin' Interfering Arseholes) - Overturn this ruling or resign and join something more suitable for you.. such as synchronised swimming.

    Sep 8, 2008 4:44:35 PM

    YorkshireExpat
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    Reply to: John H

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Quote:
    Former Formula One world champion Niki Lauda believes the stewards got it "completely wrong" when they stripped Lewis Hamilton of his Belgian Grand Prix win



    Hopefully the audio is still available:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/7604776.stm

    Sorry Mr. Gangajas who smokes a little too much ganja but I respect Niki Lauda's opinion more than yours....

    Sep 8, 2008 5:02:48 PM

    ezzie
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    Reply to: YorkshireExpat

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    This is a rather telling analysis from Nicki Lauda

    ""This is the worst judgment in the history of F1, the most perverted judgment I have ever seen," said Lauda, now a grand prix commentator. "It's absolutely unacceptable when three functionaries [stewards] influence the championship like this. Hamilton did nothing wrong. He was on the outside, he then let him [Raikkonen] by, which is the rule, and afterwards he passed him. Hamilton did the right thing in letting him by before again passing him."

    Lauda praised Hamilton's performance in the grand prix and criticised that of his rival Raikkonen. "He [Hamilton] executed perfect car control when it was wet," said Lauda. "He did a perfect job, won the race, and you can only take your cap off to him and congratulate him. Kimi has not done a good job this season. In this race he did a perfect job, until the end when he threw it away.""

    Sep 8, 2008 5:10:20 PM

    ezzie
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    Reply to: ezzie

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    According to the Guardian newspaper, it seems an appeal by McLaren is not certain, as drive through penalties are not usually reversible.

    "Hamilton's McLaren team have until tomorrow afternoon to confirm whether they will carry out their intention to appeal the decision. There will be some debate over the matter, however, as the sport's rules say that a drive-through penalty - which in this case was converted into a 25-second penalty as it was applied after the race - is not susceptible to appeal."

    Sep 8, 2008 5:20:33 PM

    reginos
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    Reply to: ezzie

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Quote:
    ezzie said:
    This is a rather telling analysis from Nicki Lauda

    ""This is the worst judgment in the history of F1, the most perverted judgment I have ever seen," said Lauda, now a grand prix commentator. "It's absolutely unacceptable when three functionaries [stewards] influence the championship like this. Hamilton did nothing wrong. He was on the outside, he then let him [Raikkonen] by, which is the rule, and afterwards he passed him. Hamilton did the right thing in letting him by before again passing him."

    Lauda praised Hamilton's performance in the grand prix and criticised that of his rival Raikkonen. "He [Hamilton] executed perfect car control when it was wet," said Lauda. "He did a perfect job, won the race, and you can only take your cap off to him and congratulate him. Kimi has not done a good job this season. In this race he did a perfect job, until the end when he threw it away.""



    The "football-isation" of F1.

    Bad and crooked refereeing decisions spoiled too many matches and championships in football(soccer) history.

    Now this is spilling over to motorsport.

    Sep 8, 2008 6:54:59 PM

    Spyderidol
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    Reply to: reginos

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Agree completely.
    Unfortunately it's not limited just to F1.

    Sep 8, 2008 7:57:45 PM

    cgt
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    Reply to: ezzie

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6ovii_wwwformulamagcom-hamiltonkimi_sport

    On board footage.. shows that LH had to turn left to avoid a collision. Either Kimi braked too late or LH missed his braking point, on this camera footage it looks like the former as LH takes avoiding action.

    At the end of the day, both guys were racing and neither is to blame. If the FIA wants to stop people racing then they may as well shut the 'sport' down.

    The other thing is on board footage shows is how good these guys are to race with those cars in those conditions. To take such risks to then have some fat FIA official in an air-conditioned office undermine all that is an insult.

    Sep 8, 2008 8:09:47 PM

    gangajas
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    Reply to: cgt

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Quote:
    cgt said:
    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6ovii_wwwformulamagcom-hamiltonkimi_sport

    On board footage.. shows that LH had to turn left to avoid a collision. Either Kimi braked too late or LH chopped Kimi, on this camera footage it looks like the former. Also interesting to note what Kimi did a few corners later.

    At the end of the day, both guys were racing and neither is to blame. If the FIA wants to stop people racing then they may as well shut the 'sport' down.



    Well, Hamilton did an illegal thing after a stupid move (what was he trying to do in that corner?) and was punished beacuse of that, I can't understand what all the fuss is about. Also LH should have congratulated the guy in the Williams (his friend Rosberg?) for helping him with the dirty work.

    Sep 8, 2008 8:41:14 PM

    cgt
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    Reply to: gangajas

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Sep 9, 2008 2:04:33 AM

    Adam R
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    Reply to: Emperor

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Quote:
    Emperor said:
    I'm going to start watching rally. Thank you so much for killing F1 FIA, we love you.



    I can't seem to find in on here in the States anymore.

    Sep 9, 2008 3:23:42 AM

    MarkdsvM
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    Reply to: ezzie

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Quote:
    ezzie said:
    This is a rather telling analysis from Nicki Lauda

    ""This is the worst judgment in the history of F1, the most perverted judgment I have ever seen," said Lauda, now a grand prix commentator............has not done a good job this season. In this race he did a perfect job, until the end when he threw it away.""



    Fully agree, I think we should nominate Lauda to take over from Mosley !!! Lauda for President

    Sep 9, 2008 3:56:15 AM

    Heist
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    Heist
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    Reply to: Adam R

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Quote:
    Adam R said:
    Quote:
    Emperor said:
    I'm going to start watching rally. Thank you so much for killing F1 FIA, we love you.



    I can't seem to find in on here in the States anymore.



    Sometimes, rarely, you can catch it on Speed.
    Also, here in D.C. we get about 4 hours of DWTV (Germany) on the Public Televsion channel run by Howard University (Historically black college - lol, makes no sense I know). DW sometimes carries the condensed race and highlights from Rally and DTM. Good stuff.

    Sadly, it seems like Speed has abandoned their great plethora of content in favor of continous CRAPCAR shows. If I see another episode of Pinks, I'm going to kick in my television.

    Sep 9, 2008 7:16:18 AM

    Shakal
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    Reply to: cgt

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Quote:
    cgt said:




    From his comments you see he isnt older than 15 years old, its not worth loosing time to read and answer on his comments

    This penalty is a shame, lets hope appeal wil succeed, because if not, F1 is not a sport anymore.

    Sep 9, 2008 9:54:46 AM

    marco stradale
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    Reply to: Shakal

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Such a pitty there wasn't a tractor there to pick up Raikkonen and complete the race with him...It would have been quicker than the F1 cars in those conditions....... I really like Lewis but this constent conspiracy theory sh$t is getting a bit much.....If Lewis kept his head, he would have comfortably had Raikkonen later on.

    Sep 9, 2008 10:17:32 AM

    SlvSurfer
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    Reply to: marco stradale

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Quote:
    marco stradale said:
    Such a pitty there wasn't a tractor there to pick up Raikkonen and complete the race with him...It would have been quicker than the F1 cars in those conditions....... I really like Lewis but this constent conspiracy theory sh$t is getting a bit much.....If Lewis kept his head, he would have comfortably had Raikkonen later on.



    Tractor? Like the one Hamilton used to get out of the sand trap, oh right! That one! But I'm sure they reserved it for him again.

    Sep 9, 2008 10:27:33 AM

    Dr. Phil Offline
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    Reply to: SlvSurfer

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    NEWS: Massa pours more gasoline on the fire:
    http://edition.cnn.com/2008/SPORT/09/09/felipe.massa.lewis.hamilton/index.html?section=cnn_latest

    McLaren seem to give up their protest:
    http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/080909103423.shtml

    Sep 9, 2008 10:37:10 AM

    gangajas
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    gangajas
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    Reply to: SlvSurfer

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Quote:
    SlvSurfer said:
    Quote:
    marco stradale said:
    Such a pitty there wasn't a tractor there to pick up Raikkonen and complete the race with him...It would have been quicker than the F1 cars in those conditions....... I really like Lewis but this constent conspiracy theory sh$t is getting a bit much.....If Lewis kept his head, he would have comfortably had Raikkonen later on.



    Tractor? Like the one Hamilton used to get out of the sand trap, oh right! That one! But I'm sure they reserved it for him again.



    Yeah, they weren't complaining about inconsistency, FIA conspirations and the death of F1 back then. Pffff....

    Sep 9, 2008 10:45:31 AM

    throt
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    throt
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    Reply to: Dr. Phil

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Massa got no hope of winning this years F1 , he simply is not fast enough...LH all the way..

    Shame retired MS is not racing with LH...

    Sep 9, 2008 11:39:28 AM

    reginos
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    reginos
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    Reply to: SlvSurfer

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Quote:
    SlvSurfer said:
    Quote:
    marco stradale said:
    Such a pitty there wasn't a tractor there to pick up Raikkonen and complete the race with him...It would have been quicker than the F1 cars in those conditions....... I really like Lewis but this constent conspiracy theory sh$t is getting a bit much.....If Lewis kept his head, he would have comfortably had Raikkonen later on.



    Tractor? Like the one Hamilton used to get out of the sand trap, oh right! That one! But I'm sure they reserved it for him again.



    Let's not be fanatical about things!
    Even if for argument's sake,what happened with the "tractor" was wrong, it doesn't justify anyone to do a bigger mistake last Sunday. Two wrongs don't do one right.

    It's like a football referee that wrongly disallows a goal as offside and then awards a penalty to make even. Both actions are wrong!

    Sep 9, 2008 11:43:01 AM

    reginos
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    Reply to: Dr. Phil

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Quote:
    Dr. Phil said:
    NEWS: Massa pours more gasoline on the fire:
    http://edition.cnn.com/2008/SPORT/09/09/felipe.massa.lewis.hamilton/index.html?section=cnn_latest

    McLaren seem to give up their protest:
    http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/080909103423.shtml



    I hope that Raikkonen wakes up and gives Massa a lesson as to who is the boss in the red team.

    Sep 9, 2008 11:48:09 AM

    reginos
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    Reply to: throt

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Quote:
    throt said:
    Massa got no hope of winning this years F1 , he simply is not fast enough...LH all the way..

    Shame retired MS is not racing with LH...



    Even if Massa wins the title it will be a hollow victory. No one besides his chubby dad would want to remember him after the end of the season.

    Yes, the Red Baron with all his flaws, was a driver par excellence and a personality worthy of the Scuderia Ferrari.

    Sep 9, 2008 11:53:19 AM

    marco stradale
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    Reply to: reginos

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    IMHO there's a pretty BIG difference between the "Tractor" debacle and Lewis cutting across the chicane....French GP ring a bell ?

    I'm stating again,I like Lewis alot but he got what he deserved....Care to comment on his weaving down the straight after Eau Rouge ?

    Lets see..British owner ie Bernie, majority of F1 teams based in Britain,British team ie McLaren,British driver ie Hamilton,British coverage.....oh yeah,I know..blame the Italians...Gee, I must also be 15 years old

    Sep 9, 2008 11:57:50 AM

    reginos
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    reginos
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    Reply to: marco stradale

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Quote:
    marco stradale said:
    IMHO there's a pretty BIG difference between the "Tractor" debacle and Lewis cutting across the chicane....French GP ring a bell ?

    I'm stating again,I like Lewis alot but he got what he deserved....Care to comment on his weaving down the straight after Eau Rouge ?

    Lets see..British owner ie Bernie, majority of F1 teams based in Britain,British team ie McLaren,British driver ie Hamilton,British coverage.....oh yeah,I know..blame the Italians...Gee, I must also be 15 years old



    I am not blaming the Italians. I am blaming the FIA under Mosley, who of course happens to be english. Nothing to do with where someone comes from.

    Also, I respect the opinion of Niki Lauda who is remembered as a 100% Ferrari man (in spite of a title with Mclaren-TAG Porsche) but didn't fear to speak his mind.
     
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