Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Should Porsche build a sedan? - Page1

Aug 20, 2004 8:05:17 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002

Should Porsche build a sedan?

I came across a lengthy analysis regarding this issue. It makes good reading especially regarding Porsche as a company. Here is an excerpt under the section titled risks:

Image of an exclusively sport car manufacturer might be severly damaged. Porsche risks alienating its core customers, who value the Porsche brand in part because it serves the purists' market. As the psychographic profile of the Porsche buyer reveals, a large portion of customers are attracted by a DESIRE TO BE NOTICED (emphasis is mine

) and by the status and power associated with Porsches' brand.Some analysts already attribute Porsche's sliding 911 and Boxster sales to core customer desertion after "the the launch of an SUV has taken some of the magic away from the marque"....

Here is the link to the article Some real good stuff in it. BTW, Cal. Tech for a European friends is an elite engineeering school in CA.

http://www.hss.caltech.edu/~mcafee/Classes/BEM106/Papers/2004/Porsche.pdf

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Aug 20, 2004 9:14:45 PM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: nberry

Re: Should Porsche build a sedan?

You don't give up, do you Nick? What's your point in using any available device to put down a brand that you do not own (other than the truck)? We would not come after you if you were offering a proper debate, other than this constant rubbish.

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Aug 20, 2004 10:57:38 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: ADias

Re: Should Porsche build a sedan?

Quote:
ADias said:
You don't give up, do you Nick? What's your point in using any available device to put down a brand that you do not own (other than the truck)? We would not come after you if you were offering a proper debate, other than this constant rubbish.

I have been accused of not backing up my assertions. I have been personally attacked and mocked ( which I consider a badge of honor). Now you have attack a scholarly report from Cal Tech and call it rubbish.

It only proves what I have known all along; some Porschephiles have their head so deep into Windekings rear end they not only cannot see the light of day but their brains have turned to feces. Without a doubt your one of them.

Keep coming after me.

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Aug 20, 2004 11:24:08 PM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8234, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: nberry

Re: Should Porsche build a sedan?

Haha!

So why didn't YOU get one, Nick?

That's all I will comment on this thread.

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Aug 20, 2004 11:31:47 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21148, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: Ferdie

Re: Should Porsche build a sedan?

Troll throws bait... member is sick and tired of the troll and replies... troll gets the excuse he was seeking with the bait to place an inmaturely constructed anti-Porsche marque plug from the position of a now innocent attacked victim... repeat ad nauseum... you don't get much attention or respect at home, do you Nick.

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Aug 20, 2004 11:39:35 PM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Should Porsche build a sedan?

Partially correct Carlos. I did not attack him. I asked him why is he constantly attacking a brand he despises without offering a proper debate. This guy is only up to no good.

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Aug 20, 2004 11:49:26 PM

Yargk: Pilot; Loc: SF Bay Area, CA, USA; Posts: 486, Gallery; Registered on: May 18, 2003; Reply to: ADias

Re: Should Porsche build a sedan?

Although I prefer Porsche's sportscars to Ferraris, I don't like the fact that Ferrari owners can wear shirts saying "we will never build an SUV" and Porsche owners can't. But the PepperWagon has already been built, so why not build a sedan. My greatest hope will be that it will take a little pressure off the 911 for having to cater to all the would be Porsche owners who don't want an SUV, but want a Porsche and want luxury. Maybe with the addition of a sedan, 911s can stay on the sporty side of the scale.

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Aug 20, 2004 11:50:35 PM

brunner: Veteran; Loc: E. Europe , Romania; Posts: 1125, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 28, 2003; Reply to: ADias

Re: Should Porsche build a sedan?

funny thing is, he's wasting more time on porsche articles than ME

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Aug 20, 2004 11:59:07 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21148, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: ADias

Re: Should Porsche build a sedan?

Quote:
ADias said:
Partially correct Carlos. I did not attack him. I asked him why is he constantly attacking a brand he despises without offering a proper debate. This guy is only up to no good.

Oh, I agree Antonio, I didn't say he was attacked by you at all, just any reply (mine included) is all he needs to play.

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Aug 21, 2004 8:24:59 AM

vtrader: Veteran; Loc: Los Angeles; Posts: 1086, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 6, 2004; Reply to: nberry

Re: Should Porsche build a sedan?

Quote:
nberry said:
BTW, Cal. Tech for a European friends is an elite engineeering school in CA.

Nick, they used to be an elite school. They dropped 4 places in the last US News ranking. They were #4, now they are #8. Now MIT (#5) and Stanford (tied #5) are better engineering schools.

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Aug 21, 2004 9:28:23 AM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59580, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: brunner

Re: Should Porsche build a sedan?

Quote:
brunner said:
funny thing is, he's wasting more time on porsche articles than ME

And thats exactly the reason why Nick's posts are viewed as a provokation and not as food for thought.
Because people wonder why a Ferrari 360 owner AND Cayenne S owner (talking about bashing Porsche as not being a sportscar manufacturer anymore...) would start such threads.

In my opinion, the 997 is the best 911 Porsche ever built and with the 997 GT3 and 997 Turbo in the pipeline, the next two years will be highly interesting for Porsche but also sports car enthusiasts. The 997 only happened because Porsche earned a lot of money, not only with the 996 and Boxster but with the Cayenne too. And if the Cayenne and maybe a sports sedan mean that Porsche earns even more money and builds even better 911s and Boxsters, I don't have anything against it.

It is funny: when BMW builds a sports sedan like the M5, allover the world people seem to be impressed. Why shouldn't Porsche do it? Remember the Audi RS2 and Mercedes E500? Both cars were built and co-developped by Porsche and they not only had great success, they are still legends.
When I visited Alois Ruf, he and his wife were still driving one of the rare Mercedes E500 with those "famous" large fenders.
I just hope that the second Cayenne generation will be a bit more refined but I guess that the 996 showed us very well that we can expect huge improvements over the next few years.

That said, no elite engineering school has a clue about Porsche philosophy, especially since most students (and probably a great part of the professors) never owned or even drove a Porsche before.
Whenever I take people for a ride in the Cayenne Turbo, they can't believe this is a SUV with a 2.5 ton net weight.
And the 997 earns looks and incredible positive comments anytime I stop somewhere and people get the chance to speak to me. I didn't get that much attention in my 996 Turbo back in 2000 when I received one of the first cars in Germany.

But I wonder: why do I explain myself all the time, it almost sounds like an excuse. A sports sedan in the next logical step in the Porsche family. And if Porsche delivers at the same time much sportier and improved sports cars, they can even build a scooter, I don't care.

BTW: Lamborghini is planning to release a sporty SUV model in the near future. Does this mean they don't build real sports cars anymore?

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Aug 21, 2004 9:29:34 AM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: nberry

Re: Should Porsche build a sedan?

Quote:
nberry said:
Keep coming after me.

That sentence says it all.

I have suspected for some time that Nick's inane posts are deliberately and solely intended to provoke the reactions that they invariably do, and now he has confirmed it "from his own mouth".

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Aug 21, 2004 6:08:28 PM

racerx: Rennteam VIP; Loc: 1985 porsche dealership , Bouvet Island; Posts: 8751, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 27, 2004; Reply to: fritz

Re: Should Porsche build a sedan?

Yes of course porsche should build a sedan and a gt (again). But only if they lead their category in performance and quality just like the Cayenne T and CGT. What snobby fool would refuse to buy a 997 or boxster just because the same company made the pinnacle of SUV's. Thats the attitude reserved for nick's other car.
I think it is good to have all kinds of views presented on these message boards. Porsche makes capable, proven performance vehicles for a fair market price. They do not to be defended as their performance and durability speak for themselves. That is only necessary when you pay a $100,000.00 "heritage" premium.
Tom

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Aug 22, 2004 2:38:55 AM

lev: Pilot; Loc: Canada, Toronto; Posts: 397, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 15, 2004; Reply to: racerx

Re: Should Porsche build a sedan?

I only hope that if they build a sedan it wouldnt big 997 or lowered Cayenne but somthing new - similar to what they did with Cayenne.

I also agree with RC comments above.

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Aug 22, 2004 1:53:04 PM

FixedWing: Veteran; Loc:; Posts: 870, Gallery; Registered on: May 25, 2002; Reply to: nberry

Thanx Nick!

I think this is a great topic for discussion on a Porsche oriented board. Thank you Nick for bringing it up!

My feeling is that there was a special reason for disliking the SUV Porsche. For most of us, the SUV is the bane of our existence. Most SUV drivers are far from car enthusiasts. Ok, so Porsche (and BMW) have proved that a good SUV can be built. But still this is an inferior vehicle so far as sport driving is concerned as compared to the other possibilities out there. I think we all have to agree on that.

A sedan is different. A sedan is still not a sports car but it is a lot closer. There are some very fast 5 passenger sedans out there. Some car companies have made their name by building sports oriented sedans. I also own a sedan which fits into this category.

So I for one, would be very interested to see what Porsche could come up with.

One thing is clear though and that is that Porsche will have a lot more difficulty bettering the competition in this area than they did with the SUV. I think it is fair to say that Porsche picked the SUV because they realised that they didn't have a lot of real competition in the niche area that they were looking at. That obviously wouldn't be true for the sports sedan. And maybe that is why they won't do it?

Stephen

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Aug 22, 2004 3:55:16 PM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8234, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: FixedWing

Re: Thanx Nick!

Interesting comment!

You might be right about Porsche's ideas entering the SUV market - but you have to bear in mind that a couple of years ago this segment was the biggest growing and you could earn a lot of money there - Wiedeking is not stupid. I could, on the other hand, imagine that Volkswagen wouldn't have built a Touareg-sized SUV if Porsche wouldn't have been interested either! A huge amount of its reputation is due to its superb handling which is due to Porsche's suspension development part!
The Touareg's design is in my eyes much more sozial-acceptable than the Cayenne's, especially the front end. The back looks a bit too bold and the taillights even enhance this appereance. In the U.S. this car might not look that big but beeing passed with high speed by one of them here in Germany doesn't feel that "good".

I never felt absolutely happy with the Cayenne's design, though I have to say the back end looks better than the VW's. If they could blend this together and maybe apply even more thrilling materials in the interior (e.g. aluminium, more advanced fabrics) I would be quite happy with that car until the successor arrives!

I believe that Porsche will be able to thrill consumers with a new sport sedan as much as they were able to do so with the Cayenne.
Why can't a sport sedan be a "sportscar"? If I consider the current Turbo Convertible weighting in at about 1700 kg this is not far away from a weight-sensitive sportsedan. So the only reason a sedan cannot be a sportscar is supposed to be the extra back seats?
The only current sport sedan that'd be in the Porsche's league handlingwise is the Maserati. The M5 is sure an absolutely thrilling car but it is based on the regular 5 sedan which has to compromise on a few things - wheelbase, interior size etc. - which for example the Quattroporte doesn't. Porsche's sedan to the M5 will be similiar like the 911 to the M3 - still two different kinds of cars!
The Continental GT is far too heavy for a sportsedan but a great luxury tourer, so is the MB CL which lacks a bit of the poise and "excitement" of the others!

That's it for today!
Greetings, guys! And girls!

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Aug 22, 2004 4:49:45 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21148, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: FixedWing

Re: Thanx Nick!

I understand that Porsche needs to remain profitable at all time but I would like for Porsche to keep to sportcars (not sporty cars) as much as posible only for the reason that the more diverse and non-sportcar the company becomes in its model range the less protagonism sportcars will have in it and in Porsche's focus and economics.
I would hate to see Porsche becoming a BMW or Mercedes 20 years down the line with the sportcars taking a secundary roll for the company. I want the engineers at the factory to focus on sportcar dinamics and performance on their research and development, the mechanics at the dealership to be fluent and focus on sportcar issues, the name of Porsche to be associated with racing and sportcars lobbying against the current public trend of big heavy un-sporty car platforms. Sporty cars are substituting sportcars everywere nowadays in all the companies model ranges, some even say Porsches are getting too GT-ish. Some say if Porsche makes more money from non-sportcars then they will have more money to build sportier cars. But that is a two edged sword, Porsche is a company and its managed by solely-profit driven econonists, the more they take the protagonism from sportcars in their company's base/foundation/core and client base, the easier it is to stray from the sportcar segement in the future, they will essentially be free to build what sells more even if the other also sell but not as much. If 80% of their sales become sendans, SUVs, GT's etc, then if the 911 becomes a nuicense to develop futher and build, then who is to say it won't get ditched? for easier and cheaper to develop wannabe sportcars. Right now the 911 for example is the base of Porsche's image and economics so they work 110% to make it the best it can be with each model change, but if its just a small part of the big model range they won't depend on it anymore and may die out like most of the other sporctars present when the 911 was born.
Basically what I'm saying is that the more the model range strays for sportcars the more I'm afraid the company may transform into a different company that doesn't care about the less popular, more untable, market nitche of "real" sportcars anymore and subtitute them for the AMG type. They may transform into just another mainstream manufacturer. I don't know of any german mainstream manufacturers who builds an exiting real sportcar.

OTOH I would like Porsche to build sedans and such becuase of their sportier focus on vehicles which will allow sportcar oriented driver like us who need to buy a non-sportcar or may need to in the future to enjoy a sportier version of it than whats out there.
There are people in this forum who chose or had to buy a SUV for different reasons and would now be stuck with a ML or X5 if it weren't for the Cayenne, and its because of them I am glad Porsche built it. But I hope that following that road further and further without refrain is not ironically the end of the Porsche sportcars that started it all and we can still enjoy today.

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Aug 24, 2004 11:47:16 AM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59580, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: FixedWing

Re: Thanx Nick!

Quote:
FixedWing said:
But still this is an inferior vehicle so far as sport driving is concerned as compared to the other possibilities out there. I think we all have to agree on that.

I really like the Cayenne Turbo and I still think it is one of the best SUV on the market, not to speak about the sportiest SUV on the market. But Porsche didn't do a 100% job here, the brake is really not up to Porsche specs and I realized it only after 8300 km of hard driving (no track driving, no towing). Not to speak about the tires which probably have to be replaced soon (after 9000 km). And finally that damn throttle/shifting lag people are complaining about, definetely not up to Porsche standards.

If Porsche wants to build a sports sedan and all signs seem to indicate that, they maybe should start asking their existing customers what kind of car they would like to see.
This isn't easy for Porsche: they have to build the sportiest sedan on earth and the new M5 might give them a hard time achieving this goal. But a 580 HP sports sedan at maximum 1800 kg weight and with an engine based on the Carrera GT V10 engine sounds just right to me. The entry model could get a 350 HP V8 engine and the second model (out of three) the bi-turbo charged V8 engine with 500 HP.

I just wish Porsche would have been more curageous to introduce the 997 Carrera entry model at 355 HP and the 997 Carrera S at 380 HP. But maybe the numbers don't say it all, my 997 Carrera S runs like hell at speeds over 200 kph and I wonder why...

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Aug 24, 2004 11:50:23 AM

Bilal: Expert; Loc: Manchester, UK; Posts: 1533, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 20, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: Porsche sedan?

If this Porsche sedan really does turn out like you say RC, wouldn't customers opt more for the turbocharged engine, due to its easy upgarde capabilities of power vs the NA CGT unit? I know that 580hp engine is special, but just a thought?

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Aug 24, 2004 9:11:40 PM

Carrageous: Veteran; Loc: Austin, TX , United States; Posts: 1197, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 5, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: Should Porsche build a sedan?

Quote:
RC said:
BTW: Lamborghini is planning to release a sporty SUV model in the near future. Does this mean they don't build real sports cars anymore?

Which they also did in the 1980's and nobody whined too much.

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Aug 24, 2004 9:17:58 PM

Carrageous: Veteran; Loc: Austin, TX , United States; Posts: 1197, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 5, 2003; Reply to: FixedWing

Re: Thanx Nick!

Quote:
FixedWing said:
Most SUV drivers are far from car enthusiasts.

Unless they're off-road enthusiasts, Stephen. I've been driving Jeeps and Land Rovers off road for 40 years. Difference today is that the great off-road vehicles are now also great on road.

Look up GMAustin's description of taking his Cayenne to Big Bend National Park. That's an enthusiast's trip.

By the way, I suspect most 911 and Boxster drivers are far from car enthusiasts, too, but that takes nothing away from MY enthusiasm!

Dain

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Aug 24, 2004 9:24:38 PM

GM Austin: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Texas , United States; Posts: 3530, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 10, 2002; Reply to: Carrageous

Re: Thanx Nick!

Quote:
Look up GMAustin's description of taking his Cayenne to Big Bend National Park. That's an enthusiast's trip.

Thank you Dain!

I have not forgotten our future Big Bend plans either.

Take a look at the Cayenne Board for my most recent off-road excursion, with the Rover enthusiasts this time.

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Aug 24, 2004 9:39:05 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: Carrageous

Re: Should Porsche build a sedan?

Quote:
Carrageous said:
Quote:
RC said:
BTW: Lamborghini is planning to release a sporty SUV model in the near future. Does this mean they don't build real sports cars anymore?

Which they also did in the 1980's and nobody whined too much.

True, but Lamborghini was not selling too many sportscars back then either, so probably nobody cared enough to whine.

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Aug 24, 2004 9:56:55 PM

Carrageous: Veteran; Loc: Austin, TX , United States; Posts: 1197, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 5, 2003; Reply to: GM Austin

Re: Thanx Nick!

Gary,

Looking forward to it. Sorry to have dropped out of sight but I've been on the road 40 out of the last 45 days. But two weeks were in France and the rest were making money toward my next 911, so no complaints.

Dain

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Should Porsche build a sedan?

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Thanx Nick!

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