Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S - Page1

Jul 9, 2008 11:31:40 AM

BangoO: Pilot; Loc: France , France; Posts: 366, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 22, 2006

Cayman S vs 997 C2S

Hi everyone,

I own a Cayman S since 4 months (never used it on a track and never will).
It is very well equiped (19k Euro of options, including 19" and PASM, which are important for the questions at the end of this post).
I like it a lot, but as my every day car, I find it too noisy and "radical". It always gives the impression that it's place is on a track...
I mean... the sound is great, I love it, but on the highways my hears hurt

I don't want to have 2 cars, I want only one, so it needs to be a good all arounder (my 335i was, but it was BORING to drive).
So... I was thinking about maybe replacing it with a 997 C2S (C4S would be even better but too expensive).
I have never driven one (and need to), but I thought I might ask for advice here first...
So... questions...

Is the 997 C2S less noisy ?
Is it more comfortable ?
Is it really bigger inside ?
Is the difference in power and torque really there ?

And then, resale value and depreciation...
I only buy used cars, my Cayman S now has 18000 kms, and I would buy a 997 C2S with ~20-30000 kms.
Which one will depreciate more... a very well equiped Cayman S, or a not very well equiped 997S (my budget is less than 75k Euro , ideally less than 70k Euro ) ?

I'm sure I will have a lot more questions, but let's start with those... thank you !

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Jul 9, 2008 12:36:17 PM

Porsche-Jeck: Rennteam Master; Loc: Rheinland , Germany; Posts: 4856, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2005; Reply to: BangoO

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

Hi BangoO - seems you flip your cars rather frequently (335i/CaymanS) because the package doesn't completely suit your needs

Maybe it's better to go for a prolonged testdrive (ideally over the weekend or so) next time

Quote:
BangoO said:
1) It always gives the impression that it's place is on a track...
2) I mean... the sound is great, I love it, but on the highways my ears hurt

1)

2) I thought in France you travel @ 130 km/h in sixth gear - can't be that noisy

Joking aside: the engine sits only 30 cm behind you and likes to be revved. IMO no prob at moderate speed, but quite noisy on longer highspeed trips (Autobahn). For sure not the best Autobahn-tool if you like it comfy and quiet

Quote:
BangoO said:
1) Is the 997 C2S less noisy ?
2) Is it more comfortable ?
3) Is it really bigger inside ?
4) Is the difference in power and torque really there ?

1) Yes
2) I'd say yes, but it depends on your definition of "comfortable" - seat comfort and ergonomics are not that different, but the roomier cabin may make you feel more comfy.
3) Yes, definitely (apart from the obvious- rear seats)
4) Yes, especially on the Autobahn you can feel it ( but be prepared that the Carrera feels less planted compared to the Cayman at highspeed due to it's shorter wheelbase + "lighter" front axle - it's not a problem though, you just have to get accustomed to it)

Re depreciation:

I guess in relative terms (%) the 997 will do a bit better, in absolute figures ( Euro ) it might be a wash.

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Jul 9, 2008 12:56:27 PM

BangoO: Pilot; Loc: France , France; Posts: 366, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 22, 2006; Reply to: Porsche-Jeck

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

Quote:
Porsche-Jeck said:
Hi BangoO - seems you flip your cars rather frequently (335i/CaymanS) because the package doesn't completely suit your needs Maybe it's better to go for a prolonged testdrive (ideally over the weekend or so) next time

I had a 987S before the 335i, so I knew what I was buying.
I had to buy fast because someone wanted my 335i which was not really easy to sell.
Maybe I'm just getting older, but I'm only 31 so...

Anyway, thank's for the advice, I'll try to find a 997 C2S and go for a testdrive, but I doubt anyone will lend one to me for a week-end...

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Jul 9, 2008 1:18:24 PM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: BangoO

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

Quote:
BangoO said:
1. Is the 997 C2S less noisy ?
2. Is it more comfortable ?
3. Is it really bigger inside ?
4. Is the difference in power and torque really there ?

My view on your above questions is:

1. no, similar noise level
2. no, similar level of comfort
3. yes, that is actually an advantage of the 997 (more space for driver+passenger, back seats etc.)
4. yes, quite so. The 997s is quite noticeable faster in certain situations (for example, when accelerating out of tight corners)

However, based on your above post (you seem to be in search of more comfort) I would not expect that you like the 997s much more than the Cayman S...

BTW: the Cayman S has the more stable setup. For example, the Cayman is remarkably fast in fast bends, the 997s is more agile (more oversteer...) and a bit more fun on the track. On public roads the difference should not be huge, however.

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Jul 9, 2008 1:21:58 PM

reginos: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Nicosia , Cyprus; Posts: 12130, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 20, 2005; Reply to: BangoO

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

On your 4 criteria above the Carrera is a definite YES=better.
The Cayman/Boxster drives more naturally due to friendlier handling. As soon as you drive one you feel at home. The Carrera needs an acclimatisation period and sometimes it reacts strangely especially the light front end.
In the wet especially standing water I find the Carrera better, whereas the mid-engined car can get light due to less weight on the axle.
Personally I find the Boxster a better option than the Cayman or the Carrera cabrio. If you want closed cabin go Carrera. If you want open top go Boxster.
Well my opinion!

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Jul 9, 2008 1:38:19 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: reginos

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

True confessions: When I'm at a light in my 986S and the car next to me is hotter, I sometimes kick myself for not driving my TT. There's a "macho" (?) feeling that sometimes goes along with the Carrera. You don't get that with a "boxster."

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Jul 9, 2008 2:44:39 PM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: MMD

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

Hi BangoO,

Regarding noise, comfort, power and space:

1) I think all the Boxsters, Caymans and Carreras are noisy because, to get the best performance, they all need to be revved quite hard. That's fine when you're in the mood for that or if you are at low speed on semi-fast roads around town. However, you're right, if it's all the time or on high speed journeys on the motorway, these cars can be noisy and this can become bothersome over long journeys of several hours.

I therefore have a suggestion for you that you may not have considered. How about a 996TT? If you look around, you should be able to find a well-optioned one in good condition within your budget. The key thing for you is that you will get a car that produces far more power and torque at much lower engine speeds. It means that the engine noise (at the same speed as you would normally drive your Cayman) will be much lower.

2) Comfort? Yes, I think the 996TT is a good car for long journeys when you need some comfort. It's easy to drive with a quite soft suspension so you won't feel like it belongs only on the track.

3) Regarding power, you will notice the much greater power. The Mk2 996TT has 420bhp. That's a big increase on your Cayman S (295bhp?). It produces a mountain of torque which you will really appreciate on acceleration out of corners or on straight roads where you floor the throttle.

4) Regarding space, the 911 is great because you can (a) push the drivers and front passengers seats far back - so you have loads of legroom (which you do not have as much of in a Boxster or Cayman), or (b) alternatively, you can use the area behind the front seats for storing bags etc. Very handy!

I would add another factor. Since you only buy pre-owned cars, you clearly are a person who wants a great car but without the same depreciation cost. This is the smart way to own and run a Porsche. IMO a good 996TT has done much of its initial, heavy depreciation already. So the cost to you in depreciation - after you purchase it - should be much less.

A last factor - TT owners who buy new often have the biggest budget to spend on options. You are more likely to find a fully loaded 996TT than a 986 or 996 C2 for example.

So I know you have been considering the advantages and disadvantages of the Cayman S and 997 C2S BUT I really think you should look a little more widely.

I realise that a 996TT within your budget will have more mileage than a 997 or Cayman BUT, it is in great condition with a full Porsche service history, you should be safe with worry-free ownership. If anything the 996TT engine is built to handle high mileage better!

Just a suggestion which hopefully you will find useful

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Jul 9, 2008 3:55:31 PM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
Hi BangoO,

Regarding noise, comfort, power and space:

1) I think all the Boxsters, Caymans and Carreras are noisy because, to get the best performance, they all need to be revved quite hard. That's fine when you're in the mood for that or if you are at low speed on semi-fast roads around town. However, you're right, if it's all the time or on high speed journeys on the motorway, these cars can be noisy and this can become bothersome over long journeys of several hours.

I therefore have a suggestion for you that you may not have considered. How about a 996TT? If you look around, you should be able to find a well-optioned one in good condition within your budget. The key thing for you is that you will get a car that produces far more power and torque at much lower engine speeds. It means that the engine noise (at the same speed as you would normally drive your Cayman) will be much lower.

2) Comfort? Yes, I think the 996TT is a good car for long journeys when you need some comfort. It's easy to drive with a quite soft suspension so you won't feel like it belongs only on the track.

3) Regarding power, you will notice the much greater power. The Mk2 996TT has 420bhp. That's a big increase on your Cayman S (295bhp?). It produces a mountain of torque which you will really appreciate on acceleration out of corners or on straight roads where you floor the throttle.

4) Regarding space, the 911 is great because you can (a) push the drivers and front passengers seats far back - so you have loads of legroom (which you do not have as much of in a Boxster or Cayman), or (b) alternatively, you can use the area behind the front seats for storing bags etc. Very handy!

I would add another factor. Since you only buy pre-owned cars, you clearly are a person who wants a great car but without the same depreciation cost. This is the smart way to own and run a Porsche. IMO a good 996TT has done much of its initial, heavy depreciation already. So the cost to you in depreciation - after you purchase it - should be much less.

A last factor - TT owners who buy new often have the biggest budget to spend on options. You are more likely to find a fully loaded 996TT than a 986 or 996 C2 for example.

So I know you have been considering the advantages and disadvantages of the Cayman S and 997 C2S BUT I really think you should look a little more widely.

I realise that a 996TT within your budget will have more mileage than a 997 or Cayman BUT, it is in great condition with a full Porsche service history, you should be safe with worry-free ownership. If anything the 996TT engine is built to handle high mileage better!

Just a suggestion which hopefully you will find useful

The 996TT (or TTS) seems to be an excellent idea

A great car for pretty little money - I liked my car a lot

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Jul 9, 2008 4:28:25 PM

BangoO: Pilot; Loc: France , France; Posts: 366, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 22, 2006; Reply to: MKSGR

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

Thx guys, I had not thought about a 996TT.
However, I do not want a 996, it does look old now... and I really like the 997.
I'm gonna end with an M3... kidding

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Jul 9, 2008 5:28:11 PM

dreamcar: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Hampshire , United Kingdom; Posts: 8797, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 19, 2004; Reply to: BangoO

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

Quote:
BangoO said:
I'm gonna end with an M3... kidding

Don't ignore the M3, it's as quick as a C2S (ignoring the top speed which is restricted), has more room than a C2S, it's probably slightly more comfortable, and for the price of a used C2S you could get a new M3. Also, here in the UK anyway, used M3's even on a BMW dealer's forecourt, are going for cheap money. Only downside - heavy fuel consumption.

It's a very different animal to the 335i you used to own.

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Jul 9, 2008 6:25:06 PM

reginos: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Nicosia , Cyprus; Posts: 12130, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 20, 2005; Reply to: dreamcar

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

Quote:
dreamcar said:
Quote:
BangoO said:
I'm gonna end with an M3... kidding

Don't ignore the M3, it's as quick as a C2S (ignoring the top speed which is restricted), has more room than a C2S, it's probably slightly more comfortable, and for the price of a used C2S you could get a new M3. Also, here in the UK anyway, used M3's even on a BMW dealer's forecourt, are going for cheap money. Only downside - heavy fuel consumption.

It's a very different animal to the 335i you used to own.

M3 is very competent but not charismatic. It is in a different category.

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Jul 9, 2008 6:39:26 PM

Atzporsche: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Vancouver , Canada; Posts: 9118, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 7, 2005; Reply to: reginos

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

As far as i can compare, and considering the reasons you want to trade your cayman, i don't think a 997 C2 will be enough of a difference for you to be happy. Yes you will have the 997, which you really like, but it's very very similar (when looking at your criteria!)

If you really really liked the 335i then i think getting the M3 will be a dream for you. The M3 is a totally different beast and it's so much like the 335i for obvious reasons... but then everything is a little nicer and it's really fast too. Plus with some research you can probably get one new at a BMW dealer, and that's always nice

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Jul 9, 2008 6:40:43 PM

Atzporsche: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Vancouver , Canada; Posts: 9118, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 7, 2005; Reply to: Atzporsche

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

A brand new M3 in France starts at 74k euro!!!!

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Jul 9, 2008 6:58:06 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: BangoO

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

Quote:
BangoO said:

I'm gonna end with an M3... kidding

E92 M3 V8 WARNING!

I love my E_46_M3. Jumping back and forth it's a relief sometimes not to have to squeeze into the P-car. More room to relax, more visibility.

Compared to my 997S (now gone) the "cheap thrill" factor on public roads is about equal. Mine is a 333 hp M3. Driving frisky on public roads (not insanely) the new V8M3 could very well be slightly better than FL 997 in this "cheap thrill" regard.

For public road fun, IMO, avoid underestimating on the new M3 even though it's waaaay fugly.

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Jul 10, 2008 8:11:46 AM

BangoO: Pilot; Loc: France , France; Posts: 366, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 22, 2006; Reply to: MMD

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

I had a E46 M3 a few years ago with SMGII, I loved it.
I also really really liked my 335i because at that time I was driving mostly highways, but on the road it's boring.
So... new M3... after selling the 335i, I said it would be my last BMW, price depreciation here is just crazy.
And I really want a Porsche while I don't have any kids

Thank you very much everyone for your advice !
I'll go testdrive a 997S and see if the difference with the Cayman S is worth the price differnce and decide.

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Jul 10, 2008 9:26:39 AM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8234, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: BangoO

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

Quote:
BangoO said:
I'll go testdrive a 997S and see if the difference with the Cayman S is worth the price differnce and decide.

That's the only advice one can give you!

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Jul 11, 2008 1:16:53 PM

MarekN: Pilot; Loc: Czech Republic; Posts: 409, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 7, 2006; Reply to: Ferdie

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

I think that you owe yourself a 911 just because it exists and you've already tried the Boxster range. It is a better car, especially in terms of what you are looking for. Don't get caught up too much in the way everybody seems to aplaud the Cayman for its superior chassis characteristics because after all, what else is there to say about it when there is a 911 next to it?

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Jul 11, 2008 1:21:11 PM

BangoO: Pilot; Loc: France , France; Posts: 366, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 22, 2006; Reply to: MarekN

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

MarekN, where I work you see a 997 at every corner... But I think I only saw 2 or 3 Cayman S... So... yes... the Cayman S is a lot more exclusive here

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Jul 11, 2008 2:34:09 PM

BangoO: Pilot; Loc: France , France; Posts: 366, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 22, 2006; Reply to: BangoO

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

Just to get an idea of what is a good bargain for a 997S (I will most probably only buy at a Porsche dealer), can you tell me what you think of those 5 ?

http://ucl.porsche.de/ucl/plsql/fr/clien...r_=1&lnr_=3
http://ucl.porsche.de/ucl/plsql/fr/clien...r_=2&lnr_=1
http://ucl.porsche.de/ucl/plsql/fr/clien...r_=1&lnr_=5
http://ucl.porsche.de/ucl/plsql/fr/clien...r_=1&lnr_=7
http://ucl.porsche.de/ucl/plsql/fr/clien...r_=1&lnr_=9

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Jul 11, 2008 2:56:18 PM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: BangoO

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

@BangoO: IMHO if I were you, I would wait a bit longer before buying a used 997. There are no doubt various people who will trade in their Mk1 997 for a new Mk2 997. You will IMO find the car you are looking for at a lower price AND IMO there will be a much wider choice of cars to pick from. I would wait until about Aug/Sept 08.

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Jul 11, 2008 3:00:06 PM

BangoO: Pilot; Loc: France , France; Posts: 366, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 22, 2006; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

You are probably right easy_rider911, good advice thx !

Still, I'd like to know what you guys think of those 5 used cars above

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Oct 15, 2008 6:44:12 AM

BangoO: Pilot; Loc: France , France; Posts: 366, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 22, 2006; Reply to: BangoO

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

I finally test drove a 2007 997C2S.

It is indeed a bit more comfortable, and there is a bit more space inside.
The car is a lot less noisy, especially on highways where I had the impression of driving a BMW.
The car had the PSE, and it is simply AWESOME. I would never buy a 997 without it.
There is a lot more torque on the 997 but I was not very impressed by the power at high revs compared to the Cayman S. And I missed the kick in the butt when you reach ~5500rmps with the Cayman S.

Anyway, the end result is this... I enjoyed a lot more driving the Caymans S than the 997 C2S !
The feel of the car is completely different. I did not push the C2S too much, but it felt really light in the front, and a lot less precise than the Cayman S.
If it was not for PSE and the noise on highways, I would not even think about replacing my Cayman S with a 997 C2S (even though I'm in love with his back

).

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Oct 15, 2008 12:25:28 PM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8234, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: BangoO

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

Quote:
BangoO said:
If it was not for PSE and the noise on highways, I would not even think about replacing my Cayman S with a 997 C2S (even though I'm in love with his back ).

You can obtain the PSE for Cayman and Boxster as well. Regarding the back, better look at your girlfriend's...

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Oct 15, 2008 12:36:45 PM

BangoO: Pilot; Loc: France , France; Posts: 366, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 22, 2006; Reply to: Ferdie

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

I'm sure retrofitting PSE to my CS would cost a lot...
And I'd like to listen to it 1st...
Thx

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Oct 15, 2008 1:23:54 PM

boytronic: Veteran; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 961, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 5, 2005; Reply to: BangoO

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

Quote:
BangoO said:
I'm sure retrofitting PSE to my CS would cost a lot...
And I'd like to listen to it 1st...
Thx

Not even close to the expense of swapping cars... Hear one and you'll buy one! You have a brilliant mid-engined sports car - what more could you want?!

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Oct 15, 2008 4:48:57 PM

BangoO: Pilot; Loc: France , France; Posts: 366, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 22, 2006; Reply to: boytronic

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

What more could I want ?
The same car but without the ear-killing experience on highways...

Anyone with a video of a Cayman S with PSE ?

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Oct 16, 2008 2:09:16 PM

GR: Senior; Loc: S Bucks, England , United Kingdom; Posts: 779, Gallery; Registered on: May 17, 2005; Reply to: BangoO

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

I was disappointed by the PSE on the Cayman from the inside - barely any louder on acceleration and only really better at idle with the wondows open

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Feb 24, 2009 2:48:56 PM

BangoO: Pilot; Loc: France , France; Posts: 366, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 22, 2006; Reply to: dreamcar

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

dreamcar:

Quote:
BangoO said:
I'm gonna end with an M3... kidding

Don't ignore the M3, it's as quick as a C2S (ignoring the top speed which is restricted), has more room than a C2S, it's probably slightly more comfortable, and for the price of a used C2S you could get a new M3. Also, here in the UK anyway, used M3's even on a BMW dealer's forecourt, are going for cheap money. Only downside - heavy fuel consumption.

It's a very different animal to the 335i you used to own.

Hum...well... I'm about to sell my Cayman S (anyone intererested btw ?) to buy an M3...

997S are just still too expensive, and although I loved the look and the exhaust note, I did not enjoy driving it that much.

I still have to test drive an M3, bit I used to have an M3 E46 and I loved it.

Anyway... my only concerns with the M3 are... fuel consumpion and resale value.

I intend to fix the resale value by bying a used M3 and make a good deal.

Fuel consumption ? I 1/3 highways, 1/3 normal roads, 1/3 city driving... I do 14 l/100, but I don't what to expect from the M3 !

So... no questions really... except fomr the fuel consumption... but well... what do you guys think ? What will I miss the most going to the M3 ?

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Feb 24, 2009 4:03:57 PM

Italo: Veteran; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 1055, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 29, 2007; Reply to: BangoO

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

I drove the new M3 a while back and what a stonker it was Smiley

the sound of the engine was beautiful, high revs and the DCT was far better than the old SMG. the only downside was the interior that looked cheap to me. It reminded me of our 1 series, exactly the same buttons Smiley

--
There's only one car, there's only one Porsche

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Cayman S vs 997 C2S

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

Re: Cayman S vs 997 C2S

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