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Re: Supercar sport cars
Agree GM, but I would like to go back to the post from Nick.
Is a super sports car, the car that give you the best return on your investment, or is it a super sports car ? I would at any time argue that if you are a fanatic about sportscars you cannot afford to look at these as investments. Then you can always argue that there from time to time falls of a few dollars in a good deal, but that is another case. Just my 2 cents....
Is a super sports car, the car that give you the best return on your investment, or is it a super sports car ? I would at any time argue that if you are a fanatic about sportscars you cannot afford to look at these as investments. Then you can always argue that there from time to time falls of a few dollars in a good deal, but that is another case. Just my 2 cents....
Re: Supercar sport cars
Quote:
tso said:...Is a super sports car, the car that give you the best return on your investment, or is it a super sports car ? I would at any time argue that if you are a fanatic about sportscars you cannot afford to look at these as investments. Then you can always argue that there from time to time falls of a few dollars in a good deal, but that is another case. Just my 2 cents....
Absolutely! A sports car is not an investment. Once in a blue moon it may become one, but that is the exception, not the rule. A sports car is bought for its function - to be driven. It's asinine to decide on a sports car purchase on an investment basis or on an image/exclusivity basis. Such a buyer is not a serious sports car driver - let's face it... he is a poseur. And why should we rebel against these characters, may you ask? Because these are the guys who are pressuring PAG to add doodads, such as electric windows/seats, PCM/NAV, etc. which add weight and impact the sports component of the car.
Re: Supercar sport cars
Quote:
brunner said:
I'm still waiting for you to show me a dealer that has problems selling CGTs..
Brunner,
Nick can't waste any time looking into that now.
He's still too busy looking for the Porsche accident statistics which I queried after he quoted them here a couple of months ago.
Re: Supercar sport cars
Quote:
GM Austin said:
I agree that this is all very entertaining and funny, but let's try to gently steer our comments back toward the cars and not toward each other.
Thanks.
NO! Ben's comments are just to good to return to normal business...
Guys, one thing I would like to add - if everybody complains about Nick's attitude towards Porsche and comments on the board, why do you even visit his topics? I have the feeling that he - maybe unintended - hits you on your weakest points.
Nick, I don't have any problems with you and I enjoy your ... humor. Anyways, I hope you can back up the comments you are making!
I would NEVER buy a car with a premium for a broker, just to get the newest and hypest car out on the planet. I would consider the McLaren F1 instead of the Enzo, performancewise the Enzo is still a tad behind and it is far from beeing that comfortable as the McL!
Come on, I am glad that Porsche produces enough examples of the CGT instead of going Ferrari's way. They on the other hand intend to hold down speculation by directing sales to well-known customers. How arrogant is that?
CGTs are selling for 460 - 550 here in Germany, Enzos for 660 - 870. In relation to MSRP they are quite similiar. By the way, shall I compare resale value of 959 and F40?
Anyways, who gives a sh** which one of us buys a Ferrari? I don't!
Cheers!
Re: Supercar sport cars
It appears, at this time, I am the only person on this board who actually owns a CGT, and therefore I am also the only person who owns a Ferrari as well as the CGT. Ben, to clear up a misunderstanding, I never intended to use the CGT as a daily driver. I do like to be able to CONSIDER using my "fun cars" in place of my daily driver, when I want to do so. My comments below are after having driven the CGT 4,000 miles. The bottom line for me is the CGT is a flawed supercar. It is very sad for me to make such a statement, particularly after waiting four years for delivery of the car, and to then be disappointed that the car did not live up to my expectations or to how the car was promoted by Porsche, - a very useable supercar, with track like performance. The issues are the same as from Day 1 - #1, the low clearance, which fortunately will be somewhat rectified with a factory kit to raise the car by 3/4", #2, a rattle noise in the transmission at 1900-2100 rpm's, and #3, and most bothersome, the clutch, which detracts enormously from the enjoyment of the car. For Porsche, with the world's greatest engineers, to deliver a car with two significant engineering flaws, the transmission noise and the clutch, is very difficult for me to understand. For people on this board, who in most cases don't know what they are talking about, to pass off these flaws as nothing of importance or place the responsibility on the driver, just don't get it. In some cases, I suspect some of the responders to this thread, are people who are waiting to take delivery of their CGT, and just don't want to admit there might well be a problem, particularly with the clutch, just as I read magazine test drives and reports and thought, oh well, I am a very experienced driver and will just be able to get use to the clutch. Trust me people, it isn't easy. If I knew what I know now, I would have cancelled my order. I say that with great sadness. This experience is like a Shakespearean Tragedy, except at this moment, I haven't figured out how the play should end. Regarding all the other comments about Porsche owners vs. Ferrari owners, and all of that BS, they are, in many cases the very same people, automobile enthusiasts which differening points of view. Cheers.
Re: Supercar sport cars
Larry,
With regards to your CGT comments. Have you tried to talk to Porsche people such as your dealership or other CGT owners to see their reaction to your complains...I am really suprised by what you are saying and while I agree about your comments that most people talking about CGT here dont know what they are talking about, I love to know if other people who actually know and you may talked to are saying.
With regards to your CGT comments. Have you tried to talk to Porsche people such as your dealership or other CGT owners to see their reaction to your complains...I am really suprised by what you are saying and while I agree about your comments that most people talking about CGT here dont know what they are talking about, I love to know if other people who actually know and you may talked to are saying.
Re: Supercar sport cars
Thanks Larry. Is all that stuff "that" bad? Would you recommend anyone ordering the car for something other than 100% track use to pass on the car? It's just so hard for me to believe it's that bad, but I know you are an experienced driver and the fact you've put 4k miles on it already definetely makes your opinion valuable to me.
PS. When is your car below 2100 RPMS? :-)
PS. When is your car below 2100 RPMS? :-)
Re: Supercar sport cars
I have been in contact with my dealer regarding each of the items I mentioned. Actually, regarding the transmission noise at 1900-2100 rpms, the very first day. PCNA said the noise was normal. Regarding the clutch, not only with my dealer, but directly to Porsche, Germany. I received a very prompt response from Germany, from someone very high in the organization, explaining why the clutch operates as it does and with no indication there might be any "fix" on it's way.
Indeed, I have been in contact with three other owners of CGT's. One, the head of Monster Cable, who has a large number of high performance automobiles, is experiencing the very same issues and whose disappointment is similar to mine. Another is a friend from Carmel, who drove my car in early June, and after driving my car almost decided to cancel his order. He decided to take delivery of his car, which he did two weeks ago, as he was concerned if he passed up the opportunity to own one of the world's supercars, after waiting four years, he would never forgive himself. After 250 miles, he decided, because of the clutch, he would let go of his car. It is for sale at this time on E-Bay. The third, a major Porsche collector from Reno, is experiencing the same issue with the clutch. Since he is primarily a collector, with many cars, he is different than Dan and myself, as we like to use our fine cars more frequently.
Indeed, I have been in contact with three other owners of CGT's. One, the head of Monster Cable, who has a large number of high performance automobiles, is experiencing the very same issues and whose disappointment is similar to mine. Another is a friend from Carmel, who drove my car in early June, and after driving my car almost decided to cancel his order. He decided to take delivery of his car, which he did two weeks ago, as he was concerned if he passed up the opportunity to own one of the world's supercars, after waiting four years, he would never forgive himself. After 250 miles, he decided, because of the clutch, he would let go of his car. It is for sale at this time on E-Bay. The third, a major Porsche collector from Reno, is experiencing the same issue with the clutch. Since he is primarily a collector, with many cars, he is different than Dan and myself, as we like to use our fine cars more frequently.
Re: Supercar sport cars
Larry, I am very happy to receive first-hand comments about the car and appreciate your eloquence.
It is somehow hard to me to accept the clutch issue as something that difficult to handle. Every serious race car, from Formula 1/3000/3 to FIA GT and others are tremendously difficult to launch. To get a little insight about the issue, I would like to know what exactly you complain.
Is it a lack of feedback when the clutch connects, or simply the sudden "bite" of it? I suppose the low intertia of the engine doesn't help on that issue since it just makes it easier to stall. Launching the car at, let's say, 1500 to 2000 RPM would help anything, or does it raise the danger of frying the clutch?
I could imagine that there is a possibility to adjust engine electronics, since the same issue occurred on the first 996 (3.4 litre) and was solved with the 3.6 litre engine for similiar reasons - RC, can you back this up?
I am curious if the transmission noise occurred since the first day and if you experienced it on the prior testdrive (if you had the chance to do so).
The clearance issue is kind of funny since they should've known in the beginning that it will be an issue in the U.S. - in my opinion more than in Europe. What about an adjustable ride height at front like on the Enzo / Murcielago?
Larry, everything will turn out well at the end and I still wish you best luck and a happy drive with your car!
Greetings!
It is somehow hard to me to accept the clutch issue as something that difficult to handle. Every serious race car, from Formula 1/3000/3 to FIA GT and others are tremendously difficult to launch. To get a little insight about the issue, I would like to know what exactly you complain.
Is it a lack of feedback when the clutch connects, or simply the sudden "bite" of it? I suppose the low intertia of the engine doesn't help on that issue since it just makes it easier to stall. Launching the car at, let's say, 1500 to 2000 RPM would help anything, or does it raise the danger of frying the clutch?
I could imagine that there is a possibility to adjust engine electronics, since the same issue occurred on the first 996 (3.4 litre) and was solved with the 3.6 litre engine for similiar reasons - RC, can you back this up?
I am curious if the transmission noise occurred since the first day and if you experienced it on the prior testdrive (if you had the chance to do so).
The clearance issue is kind of funny since they should've known in the beginning that it will be an issue in the U.S. - in my opinion more than in Europe. What about an adjustable ride height at front like on the Enzo / Murcielago?
Larry, everything will turn out well at the end and I still wish you best luck and a happy drive with your car!
Greetings!
Re: Supercar sport cars
"It is somehow hard to me to accept the clutch issue as something that difficult to handle."
And you have driven the car? I would respectfully suggest that Mr. Brackett's opinion be very highly regarded, as he has had extensive history with Porsche (see Excellence review and track test of his 1997 Turbo S, for example, Mr. Brackett was also one of the first to attend the 996 Turbo intro in Spain and was one of first to take delivery of 996 Turbo)and other sports marques (Ferrari, Lamborghini), as well as extensive track time for many years.
If you need confirmation of Mr. Brackett's opinion, just check the secondary market prices for the Carrera GT in the U.S.
And you have driven the car? I would respectfully suggest that Mr. Brackett's opinion be very highly regarded, as he has had extensive history with Porsche (see Excellence review and track test of his 1997 Turbo S, for example, Mr. Brackett was also one of the first to attend the 996 Turbo intro in Spain and was one of first to take delivery of 996 Turbo)and other sports marques (Ferrari, Lamborghini), as well as extensive track time for many years.
If you need confirmation of Mr. Brackett's opinion, just check the secondary market prices for the Carrera GT in the U.S.
Re: Supercar sport cars
A good friend just got back from Chicago, there is one CGT in stock for sale.
In France you can order one now no problem.
As for usability, I have not driven it so don't know, but judging by the two CGTs (yellow and black) seen on a daily basis idling in St Tropez, I guess it's not too bad to drive at low speeds
What a waste though... But that's the way it is, and there's an Enzo too of course.
In France you can order one now no problem.
As for usability, I have not driven it so don't know, but judging by the two CGTs (yellow and black) seen on a daily basis idling in St Tropez, I guess it's not too bad to drive at low speeds
What a waste though... But that's the way it is, and there's an Enzo too of course.
Re: Supercar sport cars
Quote:
trz said:
"It is somehow hard to me to accept the clutch issue as something that difficult to handle."
And you have driven the car? I would respectfully suggest that Mr. Brackett's opinion be very highly regarded, as he has had extensive history with Porsche (see Excellence review and track test of his 1997 Turbo S, for example, Mr. Brackett was also one of the first to attend the 996 Turbo intro in Spain and was one of first to take delivery of 996 Turbo)and other sports marques (Ferrari, Lamborghini), as well as extensive track time for many years.
If you need confirmation of Mr. Brackett's opinion, just check the secondary market prices for the Carrera GT in the U.S.
Did I say ANYTHING against Larry's reputation as a sportscar driver? NO!
Please read my post again and you shouldn't find any personal affront against anybody in there.
I am just a little bit surprised how Porsche can bring out a car with such a major downside for the vast majority of buyers. I am just wondering if this will get by as time evolves, just as the design complainst with every new model generation on the 911, or if this is a constant complain that Porsche will have to solve somehow to keep customers happy.
The Carrera GT is derived from a projected LeMans-racer and has the great advancement of a carbon-ceramic clutch, that has various advantages.
Larry, I don't have any personal intention on that issue! I guess you get these words right!
Greetings!
Re: Supercar sport cars
I assume most here are like myself and have read many reviews of the CGT by people who have driven the car. Those reviews are from journalists and one jerry seinfeld. I have yet to read of anyone commenting on the clutch to the point that it would be a deal breaker. Most said it was different and would be a new habit to adjust to.
I have also read more than one post from an owner who took delivery of his CGT from rosen porsche in Phil. PA. His reviews amounted to best car he ever owned. Now these other people seem to have a different experience. So who do we believe?
How low is the car? I just measured under my car and i have just under 3 inches between the pavement and my oil pan and suspension parts. I have also looked under a CGT when i saw it at a dealership, it did not look exceptionally low.
One final note; It is unfortunate if someone is bummed out after waiting for something special for so long BUT just because someone has a boatlaod of cash does not make his opinion or driving prowess any better than anyone else's!!
How about a comment on the incredible sound from that engine. I am sure i could learn to drive it. I do remember when Michael Andretti went to europe to drive F1 one season and even though he was a cart champion he could not for the life of him avoid stalling on every starting grid.
Tom
I have also read more than one post from an owner who took delivery of his CGT from rosen porsche in Phil. PA. His reviews amounted to best car he ever owned. Now these other people seem to have a different experience. So who do we believe?
How low is the car? I just measured under my car and i have just under 3 inches between the pavement and my oil pan and suspension parts. I have also looked under a CGT when i saw it at a dealership, it did not look exceptionally low.
One final note; It is unfortunate if someone is bummed out after waiting for something special for so long BUT just because someone has a boatlaod of cash does not make his opinion or driving prowess any better than anyone else's!!
How about a comment on the incredible sound from that engine. I am sure i could learn to drive it. I do remember when Michael Andretti went to europe to drive F1 one season and even though he was a cart champion he could not for the life of him avoid stalling on every starting grid.
Tom
Re: Supercar sport cars
Quote:
trz said:
Ferdie,
My apologies if I misinterpreted your post. There have been several posts questioning Mr. Brackett and the clutch issue, and I may have inferred a tone to your post that was not intended.
Accepted!
You know, there are always two side of the story. I guess the best solution would be if we all receive a personal CGT and drive them for a few weeks, uh... years. I can understand Larry's complaints but I have also heard so many people accepting that issue and find it quite challenging - though quite pricey to replace if the challenge is over...
I can also understand Racerx's comments since there are of course a few people out there who buy their driving talent with their car.
I cannot and do not question anybody on this board without knowing him or her and I appreciate Larry's first-hand comments on the car. Since he is an individual like all of us he still might have a different opinion of course!
Greetings!
Re: Supercar sport cars
It's too bad there are not more F car owners like the guy I spent a trackday with this spring. He had a 360 challenge car and really knew how to drive it. He also showed me and the others the utmost respect on track even though I personally was driving a Miata, I was in his run group and he always watched for a pass sign from me before roaring past. Very nice car, that.
Re: Supercar sport cars
Quote:
racerx said:
...I have also read more than one post from an owner who took delivery of his CGT from rosen porsche in Phil. PA. His reviews amounted to best car he ever owned. Now these other people seem to have a different experience. So who do we believe?...
Tom
Hold the phone. Are you talking about Labcars Les? I certainly hope not since he was trying to sell his CGT w/in the first month of ownership.
Greg A
Re: Supercar sport cars
I'm holding the phone. Yes teflon i was. I had read posts on fchat by les with glowing reports. Also he went on a ride with some NJ fchatters where everyone could not praise it enough. They had pictures from a gas station. What changed? What price is it offered at? Could this have something to do with porsche vs. ferrari sales practice?
Tom
Tom
Re: Supercar sport cars
Some comments from the above referenced lucky owner:
"Enjoy the pics! I put over 100miles on the car after taking delivery. It is f****n' AWESOME, once you get accustomed to the quick catch clutch. "
Below are some great pictures taken by the guys who went on a very enjoyable ride that day. The ride involved much stop and go city driving, so the owner must be talented as there was no mention of stalling out. What i notice in these pics is that the CGT looks very exotic in real life. It has what to me makes a car look exotic- a low, wide, aggressive stance. I think it more than holds its own among the other beautiful cars in the group. Imagine if the CGT was red or yellow. I am sure it was the best sounding car there.
Tom
"Enjoy the pics! I put over 100miles on the car after taking delivery. It is f****n' AWESOME, once you get accustomed to the quick catch clutch. "
Below are some great pictures taken by the guys who went on a very enjoyable ride that day. The ride involved much stop and go city driving, so the owner must be talented as there was no mention of stalling out. What i notice in these pics is that the CGT looks very exotic in real life. It has what to me makes a car look exotic- a low, wide, aggressive stance. I think it more than holds its own among the other beautiful cars in the group. Imagine if the CGT was red or yellow. I am sure it was the best sounding car there.
Tom
Re: Supercar sport cars
Tom,
Here is the thread: CGT for Sale
I was not able to confirm the car for sale was Les's, partly b/c he never posted again to the forum.
Greg A
Here is the thread: CGT for Sale
I was not able to confirm the car for sale was Les's, partly b/c he never posted again to the forum.
Greg A
Re: Supercar sport cars
Quote:
trz said:
I believe that Labcars Carrera GT was traded in at Algar Ferrari and subsequently sold. The car had less than 200 miles on the odometer, I was told.
Labcars said, "Les, I'm up to 296miles as of yesterday, but now that my travel schedule is easing.............who knows!" And, this was right after he got the car so I suspect he put on more miles after. However, the car in PA as advertised with less than 100 miles!
Re: Supercar sport cars
I know from fchat that there was a CGT at algar at the same time that labcar was driving his, but that is unimportant. I will go with his first impression after 100 miles of driving - "f****n' AWESOME". In those pics it looks terrific and i do not know of any road car with a better looking A$$ than the CGT. It would be nice if other future owners would post their impressions of the car and show up at group drives to let the rest of us see and hear it first hand.
Anyone who shelled out this amount of dough for an investment rather than just a nice ride will have a clouded review.
Tom
Anyone who shelled out this amount of dough for an investment rather than just a nice ride will have a clouded review.
Tom
Re: Supercar sport cars
Quote:
racerx said:
i do not know of any road car with a better looking A$$ than the CGT.
As far as supercars are concerned, I agree wholeheartedly. But non-supercars like the 993 C4S coupe, 996 C4S coupe, 997 coupe or a 1937 Talbot-Lago T150SS coupe deserve an approving pat on the bum, wouldn't you agree?
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