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    Jun 21, 2008 4:43:24 PM

    Heckmotor
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    Heckmotor
    Loc: TX, USA
    Posts: 14, Gallery
    Registered on: Apr 25, 2008

    997.2 Braking System Specifications Unclear

    Did anybody notice the braking system difference between what has been announced in the (1) "Detailed Product Information" and the new (2) "Order Guide (US)" for the 2009MY 3.6-l Carrera Coupe?

    In (1), this was stated under 3. Chassis:
    "New braking system for 3.6-l models: closed top calipers, brake disk diameters: 330 mm front (+12mm), 330mm rear (+31mm), thicker brake disks at rear (+4mm)".

    In (2), this is specified:
    "12.5" vented and perforated rotors w/ 4 piston monobloc enclosed calipers - front;
    11.8" vented and perforated rotors w/ 4 piston monobloc black calipers."
    This converts to 318mm front and 300mm rear).

    I understand that the "leaked" Detailed Product Information was valid for European Union models.

    Is this actually reflected in the EU Order Guides or the ongoing EU production models?
    Does this mean that EU 911s get upgraded brakes and US 911s get the brakes of the 2008 model?

    Jul 5, 2008 10:24:59 PM

    Heckmotor
    Newbie
    Heckmotor
    Loc: TX, USA
    Posts: 14, Gallery
    Registered on: Apr 25, 2008
    Reply to: Heckmotor

    Re: 997.2 Braking System Specifications Unclear

    Even though my initial report didn't lead to any replies or a discussion, here is a short update on the continued development:

    On June 23rd I have issued a formal request in this matter to Porsche Cars of North America. I received a Case ID and was told to expect an answer via email within 2 to 3 days.

    Thursday, July 3rd, a PCNA customer service rep called my home phone number to give me the "official" answer.

    (On my interposed question as to why I was getting this answer on my private phone and not by email, as announced, she responded that she was given guidance to ONLY pass this information on verbally. Amazing how much the risk of litigation even controls Porsche's promulgation of previously published information).

    Anyway, her answer reflected the US Order Guide exactly:

    "Carrera Coupe US $75,600
    Model Year 2009 Standard Equipment includes:
    Braking System
    12.5" vented and perforated rotors w/ 4 piston monobloc enclosed calipers - front,
    11.8" vented and perforated rotors w/ 4 piston monobloc black calipers - rear.
    ABS 8.0 - Anti Lock Braking System, brake pad wear indicators, hand operated parking brake."

    The issue seems to be clear:
    The 2009 US Carrera is getting inferior brakes than EU models and those in other parts of the world.

    I questioned, how this could possibly correlate with Porsche's "Press Information", dated June 2008, in which they make some rather full-bodied statements on the new brakes on pages 37 and 38:

    "Further upgraded brake system
    It goes without saying that the new models must comply in full with the extremely great demands made by the engineers at Porsche's Development Centre in Weissach near Stuttgart also when it comes to brake performance." ... "The brake system on the new 3.6-litre 911 Carrera models is a brand-new development from the ground up.
    On the front axle the engineers have increased the diameter of the crossdrilled and inner-vented brake discs from 318 to 330 millimetres (12.52 to 12.99"), with the brake discs measuring 34 millimetres or 1.34" in thickness.
    Larger brake air spoilers on the front track control arms serve to improve the flow of cooling air to the brakes, and the four-piston monobloc fixed callipers made of aluminium are brand-new.
    To make the brake callipers even stiffer and stronger than before, the two piston-bearing side units are connected by additional crossbars. The result, once again, is an even higher standard of brake performance and a further improvement of fading-free braking qualities.
    The rear wheels now come with cross-drilled, inner-vented brake discs measuring 330 millimetres (12.99") in diameter instead of the former 299 millimetres (11.77"), with brake disc thickness of 28 millimetres or 1.10".

    Reaction of the customer service person: Consternation, followed by the assurance to look into it one more time.

    Well, whatever ...

    Greetings,

    Rainer

    Jul 5, 2008 11:14:51 PM

    SoCal Alan
    Rennteam VIP
    SoCal Alan
    Loc: Orange County , United States
    Posts: 7268, Gallery
    Registered on: Mar 6, 2004
    Reply to: Heckmotor

    Re: 997.2 Braking System Specifications Unclear

    I think you're on to something. I went to the Porsche US site and under 911 Carrera, Safety, Braking System, they do not mention the diameter of the rotor.

    http://www.porsche.com/usa/models/911/911-carrera/indetail/safety/

    I then went to the Porsche UK site, and under 911 Carrera, Safety, Braking System, they mention the size increase to 330mm.

    http://www.porsche.com/uk/models/911/911-carrera/indetail/safety/

    Sneaky bastards!

    Jul 5, 2008 11:28:24 PM

    mex99
    Pilot
    mex99
    Loc: UK
    Posts: 335, Gallery
    Registered on: Feb 28, 2008
    Reply to: SoCal Alan

    Re: 997.2 Braking System Specifications Unclear

    You guys in the States do not need the better brakes as you can't drive so fast!!!

    Jul 5, 2008 11:52:23 PM

    Heckmotor
    Newbie
    Heckmotor
    Loc: TX, USA
    Posts: 14, Gallery
    Registered on: Apr 25, 2008
    Reply to: mex99

    Re: 997.2 Braking System Specifications Unclear

    Those rigorous speed limits are the reason why so many here drive their Porsche's on the tracks.



    Rainer

    Jul 6, 2008 12:02:47 AM

    Minok
    Co-Pilot
    Minok
    Loc: Pacific Northwest
    Posts: 263, Gallery
    Registered on: Jun 29, 2008
    Reply to: mex99

    Re: 997.2 Braking System Specifications Unclear

    Quote:
    mex99 said:
    You guys in the States do not need the better brakes as you can't drive so fast!!!



    Correction: we are not legally allowed to drive that fast.

    Precisely THAT is the reason we need the bigger brakes ... to get down from speed before we blow by smokey.

    I'm thinking P-USA just doesn't know whats what, or cannot say. They seem to be behind the times on every bit of info. I'd just wait and see. It somehow seems very silly that they would give the US differing brakes, but who knows. My guess is it will shake out in the end, once the official data gets to the US, which will probably be relased by P-USA after the rest of us already know it.

    For what its worth, the order guide for the Carrera S coupe says 13" vented rotors.

    Jul 6, 2008 1:30:59 AM

    ADias
    Rennteam Pro
    ADias
    Loc: Southwest USA , United States
    Posts: 2495, Gallery
    Registered on: Apr 9, 2004
    Reply to: Minok

    Re: 997.2 Braking System Specifications Unclear

    Quote:
    Minok said:... I'm thinking P-USA just doesn't know whats what, or cannot say. They seem to be behind the times on every bit of info. I'd just wait and see.



    I think you're right.

    Jul 6, 2008 2:26:28 AM

    Heckmotor
    Newbie
    Heckmotor
    Loc: TX, USA
    Posts: 14, Gallery
    Registered on: Apr 25, 2008
    Reply to: Minok

    Re: 997.2 Braking System Specifications Unclear

    Quote:
    Minok said:
    I'm thinking P-USA just doesn't know whats what, or cannot say. They seem to be behind the times on every bit of info. I'd just wait and see. It somehow seems very silly that they would give the US differing brakes, but who knows. My guess is it will shake out in the end, once the official data gets to the US, which will probably be relased by P-USA after the rest of us already know it.

    For what its worth, the order guide for the Carrera S coupe says 13" vented rotors.



    Minok,
    The Carrera (non-S model) was the issue of my post.
    The description of the standard equipment for the "S" model appears to be correct, i.e., it matches the Porsche Press Information and is in line with the EU standard.

    But I believe there is thruth in what you're saying about PCNA. While on the phone with customer service, I had the feeling she didn't even know what the "June 2008 Porsche Press Information" document is or what it contains.

    She just regurgitated EXACTLY the contents of the US Order Guide. This guide has been distributed to all US dealers and is the basis for any 911.2 orders. My dealer showed it to me, and it does, indeed, indicate smaller brakes for the Carrera (non-S model).

    Greetings,
    Rainer

    Jul 6, 2008 6:39:55 AM

    Minok
    Co-Pilot
    Minok
    Loc: Pacific Northwest
    Posts: 263, Gallery
    Registered on: Jun 29, 2008
    Reply to: Heckmotor

    Re: 997.2 Braking System Specifications Unclear

    Carefully looking at the information on the brakes on the porsche.com/usa microsite for the 09 models, it states there that the S models receive larger brakes, so indeed it does seem true, what you are seeing in the order guides. The base models get the smaller discs, the S models the larger discs. So its the order guides and the usa microsite that seem to confirm the smaller brakes on the base 911's.

    Maybe its part of the sacrifice to keep the prices relatively sane with the huge drop in value of the US dollar? So the base models get last years brakes. They still stop the car.

    Jul 6, 2008 10:17:33 AM

    987_Belgium
    Junior
    987_Belgium
    Loc: GHENT, BELGIUM
    Posts: 62, Gallery
    Registered on: Feb 21, 2008
    Reply to: Minok

    Re: 997.2 Braking System Specifications Unclear

    I Thought this was general knowledge by now ?

    Ofcourse, the S is 10k Euro more than the non S

    the 10k gives you:

    - larger brake disks
    - different exhaust pipes
    - standard PASM
    - 30 BHP more
    - standard 19 inch carrera II rims

    and isn't the chassis just that little more 'sporty' ?

    Jul 6, 2008 9:41:37 PM

    Minok
    Co-Pilot
    Minok
    Loc: Pacific Northwest
    Posts: 263, Gallery
    Registered on: Jun 29, 2008
    Reply to: 987_Belgium

    Re: 997.2 Braking System Specifications Unclear

    So did I but Heckmotor seemed to have seen a document that gave him a different view of the situation. I'd not seen said document, but Heckmotor does say it applies only to EU production, so why one would assume the US would get such options, I'm not sure.

    I'll be happy with the stock brakes, whatever they are. Its not worth paying the $US 10k more to get larger brakes, which are then painted red (I assume so you feel like you are getting your monies worth), an exhaust change I don't like, a HP and fuel consumption increase I don't want or need, and 19 inch rims I definitely don't want. I'll be happy with my base model with smaller disks, am adding the PASM for $2k and calling it a day. $US 8k saved, which will go toward some Bowers & Wilkins speakers for the home theater.

    Jul 6, 2008 10:19:02 PM

    ADias
    Rennteam Pro
    ADias
    Loc: Southwest USA , United States
    Posts: 2495, Gallery
    Registered on: Apr 9, 2004
    Reply to: Minok

    Re: 997.2 Braking System Specifications Unclear

    Quote:
    Minok said:...I'll be happy with the stock brakes, whatever they are. Its not worth paying the $US 10k more to get larger brakes, which are then painted red (I assume so you feel like you are getting your monies worth), an exhaust change I don't like, a HP and fuel consumption increase I don't want or need, and 19 inch rims I definitely don't want. I'll be happy with my base model with smaller disks, am adding the PASM for $2k and calling it a day. $US 8k saved, which will go toward some Bowers & Wilkins speakers for the home theater.



    It sounds like that you are minimizing the S to justify your own purchase... The S is a better car, therefore it costs more.

    Jul 6, 2008 11:30:38 PM

    Minok
    Co-Pilot
    Minok
    Loc: Pacific Northwest
    Posts: 263, Gallery
    Registered on: Jun 29, 2008
    Reply to: ADias

    Re: 997.2 Braking System Specifications Unclear

    I'm not minimizing the S. It costs more, for features I don't want. I could get the S version even easier, and can afford it. I just don't want it. I'm saying the extra HP, engine capacity, and larger brakes are not with the money for me.

    I will not agree that the S is a better car, its a more powerful and more expensive car than the non S. Better... well thats very subjective.

    Jul 6, 2008 11:38:28 PM

    987_Belgium
    Junior
    987_Belgium
    Loc: GHENT, BELGIUM
    Posts: 62, Gallery
    Registered on: Feb 21, 2008
    Reply to: Minok

    Re: 997.2 Braking System Specifications Unclear

    it's just better, why would it be another model otherwise ?

    The S DOES stand for something !

    Jul 7, 2008 12:02:02 AM

    Minok
    Co-Pilot
    Minok
    Loc: Pacific Northwest
    Posts: 263, Gallery
    Registered on: Jun 29, 2008
    Reply to: 987_Belgium

    Re: 997.2 Braking System Specifications Unclear

    I'm thinking s for sport? I don't consider burning more gas on my commute 'better', but if you think the non-S is a 'lesser' car, than thats fine with me.

    Jul 7, 2008 3:53:25 AM

    Heckmotor
    Newbie
    Heckmotor
    Loc: TX, USA
    Posts: 14, Gallery
    Registered on: Apr 25, 2008
    Reply to: Minok

    Re: 997.2 Braking System Specifications Unclear

    Quote:
    Minok said:
    So did I but Heckmotor seemed to have seen a document that gave him a different view of the situation.

    ... $US 8k saved, which will go toward some Bowers & Wilkins speakers for the home theater.



    Hello Minok,

    The document I was referring to is the international "Press Release" document, a.k.a. "Press Pack". You can find it here:
    http://cid-9746e4c9659ea697.skydrive.liv...ress%20Pack.pdf

    Over the past weeks, practically every motor journalist has been extracting his/her "knowledge" from this document, which has been widely distributed by Porsche during the first decade of June. You may have noticed the similarity in contents between various US online and offline publications.
    Many of them reported the new 13" / 330mm rotor diameters front AND rear for the 2009 Carrera AND Carrera S as STANDARD equipment. (Pages 37 and 38 of the above document delineate the details.)

    Then take a look at the "US Order Guide", which you can download as "MY2009 997 Carrera Coupe.pdf" here:
    http://cid-9746e4c9659ea697.skydrive.liv...era%20Coupe.pdf

    The rotor sizes reflect those of the 2008 model and are not as advertised in the Press Pack.

    Since I already placed the order for my 2009 Carrera four weeks ago under the assumption that the Press Pack is a reliable source of info, I was trying to find out if there could be an error in the US Order Guide.

    I know quite well that I can't influence the extent of the Standard Equipment. It just surprises me, that so many - even Edmunds - have gotten this item wrong.

    Other than that, I consider the "simple" Carrera a totally satisfying sports car. I, too, don't care about more HP, etc. and rather spend my saved money elsewhere.
    Hope you will enjoy you're B&Ws. Will you be getting the 802D main speakers?

    Greetings,
    Rainer

    Jul 7, 2008 4:50:04 AM

    Minok
    Co-Pilot
    Minok
    Loc: Pacific Northwest
    Posts: 263, Gallery
    Registered on: Jun 29, 2008
    Reply to: Heckmotor

    Re: 997.2 Braking System Specifications Unclear

    Heckmotor, thanks for the link. To be clear, I wasn't implying anything in my comments, just trying to clarify. The press, I've found (and I expect motor and otherwise are the same) tend to take what little info they get and run with it, not always being careful with such details.

    802D's are a bit over what I'm willing to spend on speakers (like my cars, I'm willing to spend big but only to a certain point, I guess. Hence I'm getting a Targa 4, not a Targa 4S ). I'm going for the 802S for the fronts, the S line center and bookshelfs for the surrounds. But its got to wait for the 55" LCD display to get here this fall.

    Regardless of brake size, you and I and the rest of us will enjoy the heck out of our new 997's
     
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