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    Supercar sport cars

    Autoweek is showing the Shelby GR1 claiming it to be the next supercar.

    After viewing the Enzo, MB and others the one thing I say for the CGT is it is by far the best looking of the bunch, Unfortunately here in the US the car does not get any financial respect. Several are for sale and sellers are having difficulty selling them. Most are now listed close to sticker price and yet no buyers.

    How can this be? It probably is the best track performing super sport car and certainly the most attractive. Is it the 1500 production number?

    Re: Supercar sport cars

    I think a true supercar is one that can drive to the track hit 170 easy and drive back and to the grocery store for milk like this one

    Re: Supercar sport cars

    Quote:
    OldGuy said:
    I think a true supercar is one that can drive to the track hit 170 easy and drive back and to the grocery store for milk like this one



    I agree but Nick does not. He needs an "exclusive" car. He wants to be able to say that the garage queen he parks at the country club is only owned by a rarefied strata of privileged "superior beings" (NOT) and is not within reach of common mortals. Grocery store milk runs may not apply.

    Re: Supercar sport cars

    Quote:
    ADias said:
    Quote:
    OldGuy said:
    I think a true supercar is one that can drive to the track hit 170 easy and drive back and to the grocery store for milk like this one



    I agree but Nick does not. He needs an "exclusive" car. He wants to be able to say that the garage queen he parks at the country club is only owned by a rarefied strata of privileged "superior beings" (NOT) and is not within reach of common mortals. Grocery store milk runs may not apply.



    I am curious what sport car do you own or your parents provide for you? It is a serious question. If you are to have credibility on this and other boards you need to demonstrate you have the authority to post on these matters.

    If your a wannabe sport car enthusiast, it would be wise for you not to participate and only monitor.

    Re: Supercar sport cars

    Quote:
    nberry said: I am curious what sport car do you own or your parents provide for you? It is a serious question. If you are to have credibility on this and other boards you need to demonstrate you have the authority to post on these matters.

    If your a wannabe sport car enthusiast, it would be wise for you not to participate and only monitor.



    How much more arrogant and stupid can you be? You, of all,who does not own a Porsche (oh yeah you have a Cayenne)! Have you seen my signature and avatar?

    You, of all members, are the one desinviting my participation in a forum of my car? Again you demonstrate your arrogant, elitist and anti-democratic stance - exclusivity is it?

    I, for one, care less about your buffoon participation. I guess every forum needs one.

    Re: Supercar sport cars

    COME ON! Could we maybe stop this s#it?

    Discussions like this make me want to leave the forum!
    Let's just comment on the initial topic, please!

    OldGuy, very nice car. Yours? Are these Roock wheels? Look surprisingly appropriate, on the pic they look similiarlike the 18" wheels on the 996 Carrera!

    Maybe the CGT is too trackorientated and sensible for an everyday car collector. I guess most people would've loved to see the car have 140 additional hp so you could not only have a blast on the racetrack but also on the dragstrip...

    It is probably hard to justify the price if a Ford GT40 is almost similiar in terms of acceleration - is the SLR already available in the U.S.? How do its sales look like?
    The Enzo definately has the "Ferrari-bonus" and a slightly better acceleration than any other supercar! And it only sold in very limited numbers! Another way to raise speculations...

    Re: Supercar sport cars

    "It is probably hard to justify the price if a Ford GT40 is almost similiar in terms of acceleration -"

    The Ford GT is more inline with the performance of the GT2 than the CGT. The Ford GT and GT2 are fairly similarly priced as well - if you can get a Ford deal to sell you one at anything remotely approaching MSRP. Then again, they're also going to build like 2k/year (almost entirely for U.S. consumption only) for 3+ years.

    Knowing how much race teams spend for minute incremental performance, the CGT is a rip roaring bargain when it can stomp (1+ sec on a 60 sec handling track - it'd lap the Italian trash in less than 60 laps) on an Enzo costing over 50% more (MSRP - nearly 3X on the open market).

    Re: Supercar sport cars

    I agree that the CGT is in a league of its own. There are plenty being driven in the Bay Area and their owners do not show any buyer's remorse.

    There are rumors that PAG will reenter motorsports soon at the prototype level. It would not surprise me to see also a variant of the CGT to be developed for competition.

    Re: Supercar sport cars

    Quote:
    Ferdie said:
    COME ON! Could we maybe stop this s#it?

    Maybe the CGT is too trackorientated and sensible for an everyday car collector. I guess most people would've loved to see the car have 140 additional hp so you could not only have a blast on the racetrack but also on the dragstrip...

    It is probably hard to justify the price if a Ford GT40 is almost similiar in terms of acceleration - is the SLR already available in the U.S.? How do its sales look like?
    The Enzo definately has the "Ferrari-bonus" and a slightly better acceleration than any other supercar! And it only sold in very limited numbers! Another way to raise speculations...



    I could not agree with you more. Every time I post some lame brain wants to personally attach me and not response to the merits of the post.

    Regarding the CGT your points are well made. The SLR has been sold out for 3 years. My opinion regarding the CGT is most have come to realize that it is a track car and not particularly conducive to public roads with the clutch being what it is and the height of the vehicle.

    Also, I believe people do not see the practicality of the car. It is difficult to drive, not a collectors item (1500 produced) and power that can only be appreciated (in the US) on a track. Factor in the high cost of maintenance should it be damaged( I personally viewed the damage of the car in SD and I cannot tell how minor it looked, yet it cost $125,000 to repair).

    Finally, Porsche has a credibility problem with the buying public. My friend who owns 16 expensive cars cancelled his order because he felt Porsche would compromise the value of the car by over producing it. To prove his point, recently I read that Porsche is informally telling dealers that anyone who wants a CGT can order one.

    Re: Supercar sport cars

    "The SLR has been sold out for 3 years."

    Says who?

    "My opinion regarding the CGT is most have come to realize that it is a track car and not particularly conducive to public roads with the clutch being what it is and the height of the vehicle."

    Oddly, you have used Larry's clutch and height review (the only review I've thus far seen from a real owner vs. a magazine) - who you admit uses his as a daily driver - as proof the other less than 100 owners to date can't and don't use theirs as dailys (how ironic a comment from an F-car owner anyway).

    "It is difficult to drive"

    Yeah, maybe for those with vaginas or those used to driving automatics (er: F1) trannies.

    "not a collectors item (1500 produced)"

    While you admit someone(s) mistook your Spyder for a Mustang at the gas station, I think it's cool 99.9% of the population thinks the CGT is sub $100k. I'd imagine there are substantially more risks associated with driving an entry level F-car (360) which the public erroneously thinks is considerably more expensive than a CGT.

    "and power that can only be appreciated (in the US) on a track."

    This silly argument continues to pop up. The 180 or so top end on your 360 is more usuable and appreciated than the 205 on the CGT "in the US"? You don't think your favorite magazine 0-60 times can be enjoyed on the street? Interestingly, it is at the lower speed handling track that the CGT EATS the Enzo (this is often true of the P-car vs. F-car competition). Yet somehow it is worth 3X the MSRP of the CGT?

    "Factor in the high cost of maintenance should it be damaged( I personally viewed the damage of the car in SD and I cannot tell how minor it looked, yet it cost $125,000 to repair)."

    The damage would have been a couple times that and the car STILL wouldn't be back on the road had it been an Enzo. Hell, I'd be surprised if Ferrari didn't milk nearly 6 figures out of just such a repair to even one of their entry level models. Further, the "high cost of maintainence" is but a fraction on a CGT what it is on an(y) F-car. Not only that, you can drive the P-car 10X as much. Try putting P-car mileage on an F-car and let us know about the "high cost of maintainence". Also, let us know how much you have to pay someone to take the car off your hands with real mileage.

    "Finally, Porsche has a credibility problem with the buying public."

    In some ways I agree with you and in some I don't with respect to Porsche's credibility. The V6 Cayenne was just a pathetic move. Not only have they taken the performance right out of the thing (the acceleration isn't that impressive relative to it's class in the V8 non-turbo either) but they have canabalized their V8 (non turbo) sales. It turns out that half of the badge buying V8 (non-turbo) poseurs instead bought the V6 cause it was a cheaper way to have a P-car for their friends to see. Further I think it an absolute insult to be f-ing us P-car loyalists around with their absense from racing (6 years and counting) to instead make more money.

    "To prove his point, recently I read that Porsche is informally telling dealers that anyone who wants a CGT can order one. "

    Since there are still some 06s spots available for order, that seems a very logical thing to say. Additionally, I think it's very cool that any P-car customer who wants the finest production sports car available in the US by any manufacturer can - without having their local F-car dealer (even if they had a competitive product) gouge the schit out of them. (Ditto for Ford GTs being hocked at $100k over). Not only that, (s)he doesn't have to sit on some bullschit wait list created solely by low production to do so.

    Re: Supercar sport cars

    Ferdie yes my car in the high desert with as you guessed Roocks. I really like the look of the wheel especially in the rear with the big lip

    Re: Supercar sport cars

    Quote:
    OldGuy said:
    Ferdie yes my car in the high desert with as you guessed Roocks. I really like the look of the wheel especially in the rear with the big lip



    I'm guessing that's Midnight Blue. That's the color responsible for hooking me on Porsches.

    Re: Supercar sport cars

    thanks Ben and you're right of course, gauge-ing from your posts on Rennlist (which I follow) you would know. I can hardly wait till you get your new Pcar.Thanks hope to have a drive with you one day-- san diego right? some where around there? I am 210 miles north.I15 & 395

    Re: Supercar sport cars

    come on down anytime after it arrives

    Re: Supercar sport cars

    Ben LJ, apparently I may not have a place here as I drive a lowly MINI Cooper S, but I do love supercars, and check out all the latest etc, including reviews, by owners, friends etc, and can say I agree with you. Nberry, if it's ok with you, I'd like to continue giving my input as there is no such thing as a "bad" opinion. Ben, I too love that porsche doesnt require you to be "on the list" of current customers to be something; first come first serve, and if you can afford it, there you go! (I can't believe first come people are being deferred by ferrari for the new V8, its ridiculous, I wouldn't buy from a dealer, its degrading.

    Re: Supercar sport cars

    bostonmini: Welcome aboard! I do not think this forum is reserved only for P-car owners, even though sometimes, even a 911 owner like myself, is condescendingly asked to refrain to post by some [name witheld] who thinks of himself as royalty [NOT], and sole objective is to put down the Porsche marque on a convoluted "exclusivity" sick-to-the-head basis.

    If anything, a Mini-lover has lots in common with a P-car owner - however different those cars are. The Mini was in the 60s the British all in-the-front gokart wonder - oh I remember the Coopers and Cooper Ss well. I look forward to reading your thoughtful contributions.

    Another thing... as a Mini owner your car is as popular as a Porsche and as such non-exclusive! Kudos to non-exclusive cars driven by owners who own them for their own driving pleasure and never for bragging rights.

    Re: Supercar sport cars

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Autoweek is showing the Shelby GR1 claiming it to be the next supercar.

    After viewing the Enzo, MB and others the one thing I say for the CGT is it is by far the best looking of the bunch, Unfortunately here in the US the car does not get any financial respect. Several are for sale and sellers are having difficulty selling them. Most are now listed close to sticker price and yet no buyers.

    How can this be? It probably is the best track performing super sport car and certainly the most attractive. Is it the 1500 production number?



    I view CGT's height and clutch issues as easily fixable. P's engineers are clearly clever enough to solve both issues, and P's marketing people are surely aware of CGT's difficult sales to-date, given its current niche role as essentially a track-only car. That said, if CGT is updated w/height adjustment control (like Enzo and Murci) and a revised clutch/F1 transmission (like Enzo/Murci), I would have no doubt that P could easily sell every copy at MSRP in US. Importantly, unlike F-cars, the CGT seems built for safety w/appropriate crumple zones and air bags......when's F going to get those features...for their 75th anniversary?....even the new 612 lacks side airbags .

    Re: Supercar sport cars

    "...when's F going to get those features...for their 75th anniversary?...."

    To make those safety features necessary, don't their cars need to actually be driven first?

    Re: Supercar sport cars

    Quote:
    VKSF said:Importantly, unlike F-cars, the CGT seems built for safety w/appropriate crumple zones and air bags......when's F going to get those features...for their 75th anniversary?....even the new 612 lacks side airbags .



    Safety does not seem to be of concern to many F-car owners. You see they never drive them, they park them and show how "exclusive" they are.

    Sorry VKSF, but I could not resist. Yeah I know there are F-car owners who are serious sports cars enthusiasts, but there are not many and they do not start nonsensical threads like this one.

    Re: Supercar sport cars

    Nick, not that i don't believe you, but can you show me some dealers (websites) where the CGT is stalling? Niello only has 3 of them, 'coming soon'. Not even the price is listed..

    Re: Supercar sport cars

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    "...when's F going to get those features...for their 75th anniversary?...."

    To make those safety features necessary, don't their cars need to actually be driven first?



    Very fair point...

    Re: Supercar sport cars

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    Additionally, I think it's very cool that any P-car customer who wants the finest production sports car available in the US by any manufacturer can - without having their local F-car dealer (even if they had a competitive product) gouge the schit out of them.



    Well, one nice thing about Ferrari dealers is that they sell their new inventory at MSRP, no gouging on new cars. Used is another story, they sell those at market value, and of course there is the wait-list issue. But as a long-time Porsche owner, I was actually very impressed with Ferrari of San Francisco sales staff, it was the best overall buying experience I've had on any car. Paid MSRP for a 2004 Modena and couldn't be happier.

    Gary

    Re: Supercar sport cars

    "Well, one nice thing about Ferrari dealers is that they sell their new inventory at MSRP, no gouging on new cars. Used is another story, they sell those at market value..."

    I assume you are familiar with the "used" (barely any mileage) game F-car dealers play to gouge on what is essentially a brand new car. The one here requires an initail involuntary anal intrusion before you are "in the club". IOW, you need to pay a schitload to another person who is "in the club" (or spend $25k in service like Nick did on his first low maintenance F-car) and has their car on consignment with the dealer. Then, you can get cars at list and start f-ing the newbies. The "exclusive" freaks think this cool and kind of country club like as relates the initial membership fees.

    Re: Supercar sport cars

    Quote:
    tdf360 said:
    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    Additionally, I think it's very cool that any P-car customer who wants the finest production sports car available in the US by any manufacturer can - without having their local F-car dealer (even if they had a competitive product) gouge the schit out of them.



    Well, one nice thing about Ferrari dealers is that they sell their new inventory at MSRP, no gouging on new cars. Used is another story, they sell those at market value, and of course there is the wait-list issue. But as a long-time Porsche owner, I was actually very impressed with Ferrari of San Francisco sales staff, it was the best overall buying experience I've had on any car. Paid MSRP for a 2004 Modena and couldn't be happier.

    Gary



    Agree w/you....FoSF is factory-owned and sales staff is excellent and plays by book. However, vast majority of F dealers aren't factory-owned and some have become "creative" in maximizing profits....making "waitlists" at MSRP a joke. There's a reason any good broker can find you a near-term build spot on 360 for a price...that build spot is obviously coming from some F dealer playing creative games w/waitlist....some dealers would rather sell their small 360 allocation at closer to mkt price, as opposed to MSRP

    But before we sanctify P dealers, I would point out that several reputed P dealers in SF region are seeking premium over MSRP for 996TTS, for those customers not known or referred by known customers.....I suspect every non-factory-owned dealer of any brand would prefer the "country club approach" to selling cars....after all, premiums over MSRP make $150K+ cars incredibly profitable for dealers....

    Re: Supercar sport cars

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    "Well, one nice thing about Ferrari dealers is that they sell their new inventory at MSRP, no gouging on new cars. Used is another story, they sell those at market value..."

    I assume you are familiar with the "used" (barely any mileage) game F-car dealers play to gouge on what is essentially a brand new car. The one here requires an initail involuntary anal intrusion before you are "in the club". IOW, you need to pay a schitload to another person who is "in the club" (or spend $25k in service like Nick did on his first low maintenance F-car) and has their car on consignment with the dealer. Then, you can get cars at list and start f-ing the newbies. The "exclusive" freaks think this cool and kind of country club like as relates the initial membership fees.



    Fact: Ben, you tried to get in the club and could not. You asked me to include you in buying a new 360 Spider. You also considered buying and used 360 Spider. Finally my repairs were $10,000 and worth ever penny.

    My comments regarding the practicality of the CGT equally apply to the Enzo. The only difference is owners of the Enzo laugh all the way to the bank on resale. Future new CGT owners may find their car worth less the MSRP when they take delivery. I cannot recall any other car in that price range taking such a hit.

    Re: Supercar sport cars

    "Fact: Ben, you tried to get in the club and could not. You asked me to include you in buying a new 360 Spider. You also considered buying and used 360 Spider."

    I will readily admit I have several times considered a 360 Spider (despite the let down that was driving your first one). At no point in time have I ever considered paying over MSRP. Upon going into F-car of S. Diego and meeting with that hair slicked back, shirt unbuttoned to his balls, gold/diamond flaunting, sleeze ball demeanored Omar together with your attitude here, I immediately realized this was not a club to which I wanted to be associated. It was at that time along with observing attitudes and behavior of many F-car wearers (er: owners) around town, it became readily apparent I am not an F-car kind of guy. "Look at me. I may have a below average sized member, but I have enough money to buy this car and you don't". As for not being "able" to get in the club, I could walk into any F-car dealer this morning and pick up 3 (at MSRP or 2 at rape sticker for idiots) of your entry level convertibles for what I'll be shelling out for the real deal in November. Your "club" takes about 2/3rds the sales tax on a CGT to "join" (25% of the CGT sales tax according to you). How "exclusive".

    "Finally my repairs were $10,000 and worth ever penny."

    Your buddy Omar claimed it was $25k - some of which was the ridiculously expensive clutch that failed well before 10k miles (apparently a fairly common occurence on those POS).

    "The only difference is owners of the Enzo laugh all the way to the bank on resale."

    I don't know about that. There were only 399 (several of which have already been totaled - presumably because they are so much easier to drive with the vaginal friendly automatic than with the CGT's clutch). The vast majority of those for sale right now are most certainly not being sold by those paying MSRP.

    "Future new CGT owners may find their car worth less the MSRP when they take delivery. I cannot recall any other car in that price range taking such a hit. "

    Ask the F348 owners after the 355 came out, the 355 owners after the 360 came out and the 360 owners after the 430 comes out about what an arse reaming feels like. In fact though, those beatings are mild when compared to ANY modern day production F-car other than the entry level 360 and top of the line Enzo.

    Re: Supercar sport cars

    Quote:
    Future new CGT owners may find their car worth less the MSRP when they take delivery. I cannot recall any other car in that price range taking such a hit.


    See, that's your typical...err..manipulation.
    You ASSUME something, and then come with a nasty conclusion based solely on your assumption. Ain't that cute..
    I'm still waiting for you to show me a dealer that has problems selling CGTs..

    Re: Supercar sport cars

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    I will readily admit I have several times considered a 360 Spider (despite the let down that was driving your first one). At no point in time have I ever considered paying over MSRP. Upon going into F-car of S. Diego and meeting with that hair slicked back, shirt unbuttoned to his balls, gold/diamond flaunting, sleeze ball demeanored Omar together with your attitude here, I immediately realized this was not a club to which I wanted to be associated. It was at that time along with observing attitudes and behavior of many F-car wearers (er: owners) around town, it became readily apparent I am not an F-car kind of guy. "Look at me. I may have a below average sized member, but I have enough money to buy this car and you don't".



    That is too funny Ben, now a lot of things start to make sense

    Re: Supercar sport cars

    I have to say that Ben's comments are for the most part right on the mark. There are some very nice people that own f-cars but this idea of their exalted status is pure merketing genius made possible by the largess of marlboro and fiat and a large number of folks who fall into ben's description.
    Tom

    Re: Supercar sport cars

    Quote:
    racerx said:
    I have to say that Ben's comments are for the most part right on the mark. There are some very nice people that own f-cars but this idea of their exalted status is pure merketing genius made possible by the largess of marlboro and fiat and a large number of folks who fall into ben's description.
    Tom



    Well said, racerx. Ben, I'm still LMAO over your description of some F buyers...and FoSD

     
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