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Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur
GT,
Since it's so easy to replace the drop link, why not? It doesn't hurt to try and please report your finding. Keep in mind though that we have different sway bars, and that in the middle settings, my car is actually perfectly soft at speed. Plus your car is practically a race car as is
, not sure if the drop link would make that big of a difference. But bottom line: so easy, doesn't hurt to try.
Interesting remark about the wheels, are you trying to get me to spend more $? Think it's definitely out of the question now because of the recent "adjustment" to my stock portfolio .
As far as being stiffer with the wheels, is it from the weight reduction, or is it possible it's related to the material of the wheel? Is carbon fiber stiffer than aluminum?
GT2 seats: Beautiful and fantastic. But... when I test drove the GT-2, granted only for 35-40 miles, I had trouble with getting in and out of the car (I am 5'7", 155 lbs) and thought I wouldn't want it in my daily driver car. How are you doing with that?
Since it's so easy to replace the drop link, why not? It doesn't hurt to try and please report your finding. Keep in mind though that we have different sway bars, and that in the middle settings, my car is actually perfectly soft at speed. Plus your car is practically a race car as is
, not sure if the drop link would make that big of a difference. But bottom line: so easy, doesn't hurt to try.
Interesting remark about the wheels, are you trying to get me to spend more $? Think it's definitely out of the question now because of the recent "adjustment" to my stock portfolio .
As far as being stiffer with the wheels, is it from the weight reduction, or is it possible it's related to the material of the wheel? Is carbon fiber stiffer than aluminum?
GT2 seats: Beautiful and fantastic. But... when I test drove the GT-2, granted only for 35-40 miles, I had trouble with getting in and out of the car (I am 5'7", 155 lbs) and thought I wouldn't want it in my daily driver car. How are you doing with that?
Quote:
GT said:
Hmm if that is the case I may have to consider switching to back to OEM links if my car is too harsh after all the components my mechanic is currently installing. The list has now gone insanely long; GT3 cup lower arms f/r, gmg solid thrust bushings f/r, monoball inner bushings f/r, dog bones rear.
The car is already pretty stiff with the toe links, bilsteins and drop links alone.. One thing that I found interesting is that one of the things that made the car noticeably stiffer was.. weight reduction.! When I put the dymags on, the difference was quite noticeable. Now yesterday I installed the gt2 seats (-25kgs+ vs adaptives) and again everything stiffened noticeably. Those seats are amazing btw, I fit perfectly in them and they are pretty comfortable. Took the car cornering last night and the feeling is much better, car feels more nimble as well.
Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur
Hi Alcyon, nice car, nice seat! If you haven't already done so, you might want to try the Bilstein. I am quite confident you'll love it; it transforms the car. Just visit London for a couple of days and let Alex's outstanding shop work on your car. He's done all the homework for you already. 
I have been on a "high" ever since the exhaust and suspension change. A modded Turbo is... "sans pareil."
I have been on a "high" ever since the exhaust and suspension change. A modded Turbo is... "sans pareil."
Quote:
Alcyon said:
^+1
in my case light rims(GP7), pccbs, seats(GT2)... and the car is another else
Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur
Have used the car in everyday commuting conditions yet but so far they few times I have used the car they are fine getting out is a tad more difficult but maybe this compromise is ok given the look, feel and weight saving which I was surprised to see that it was quite noticeale..
As for the wheels I am not sure whether its the carbon vs aluminium but I am telling you that saving 16kg+ on wheels and bolts makes a MASSIVE difference in the way the suspension works.. So I am definately preaching finding the lightest wheel possible for the turbo as a "must" mod for whoever is looking to improve the dynamics of a tt..
The target should be 8kg +- per corner on averag plus titanium bolts (-2k in total vs stock ones)
Next mod GT2 intake!
As for the wheels I am not sure whether its the carbon vs aluminium but I am telling you that saving 16kg+ on wheels and bolts makes a MASSIVE difference in the way the suspension works.. So I am definately preaching finding the lightest wheel possible for the turbo as a "must" mod for whoever is looking to improve the dynamics of a tt..
The target should be 8kg +- per corner on averag plus titanium bolts (-2k in total vs stock ones)
Next mod GT2 intake!
Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur
Have used the car in everyday commuting conditions yet but so far they few times I have used the car they are fine getting out is a tad more difficult but maybe this compromise is ok given the look, feel and weight saving which I was surprised to see that it was quite noticeale..
As for the wheels I am not sure whether its the carbon vs aluminium but I am telling you that saving 16kg+ on wheels and bolts makes a MASSIVE difference in the way the suspension works.. So I am definately preaching finding the lightest wheel possible for the turbo as a "must" mod for whoever is looking to improve the dynamics of a tt..
The target should be 8kg +- per corner on averag plus titanium bolts (-2k in total vs stock ones)
Next mod GT2 intake!
As for the wheels I am not sure whether its the carbon vs aluminium but I am telling you that saving 16kg+ on wheels and bolts makes a MASSIVE difference in the way the suspension works.. So I am definately preaching finding the lightest wheel possible for the turbo as a "must" mod for whoever is looking to improve the dynamics of a tt..
The target should be 8kg +- per corner on averag plus titanium bolts (-2k in total vs stock ones)
Next mod GT2 intake!
Oct 12, 2008 3:10:19 AM
- TT Surgeon
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Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur
The drop links are one of the main things that will transmit NVD, the OEM one is actually designed with that in mind, it's meant to flex if it has to. This is why GMG does NOT recommend solid/heim joints in this link on any street driven car. FL told me the exact same thing, if these guys wanted to sell one more blue rod for 500$ it would be a no brainer....but they don't. Don't believe me, call 'em yourself.
Oct 12, 2008 11:23:58 AM
- cannga
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Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur
Chris,
I have called GMG, and several other Porsche shops, many times and actually rode in the GMG Turbo. GMG made several recommendations, with knowledge that my car is mainly street, that I did not think were best, for me:
GMG Lowering Spring (vs. Bilstein Coilover)
Dog Bones (rear upper control arms - several Porsche specialty shops contradict GMG on this recommendation and the GMG springs )
Rear Toe Link (might do this)
No Tarett
So just because GMG says something, does not mean I will blindly follow (or reject). Doesn't mean GMG or you are wrong, just mean I believe there are better choices *for me* -- all about me. I do think that many vendors' (not just GMG, and not just car) recommendations are influenced by what they sell, or don't sell, and what their direct competitors sell.
A cursory google search also shows that this kind of drop links are used in several different cars, across several different brands.
http://images.google.com/images?q=drop%2...sa=N&tab=wi
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=h...ficial%26sa%3DN
BTW, haven't we been over this once already on this thread? http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=449462&page=0&fpart=9&vc=1 I don't doubt your decision is perfect for you, but just because you don't use something doesn't mean it is a novelty or wrong -- didn't Jason/Atomic80 complain about something similar?
I have called GMG, and several other Porsche shops, many times and actually rode in the GMG Turbo. GMG made several recommendations, with knowledge that my car is mainly street, that I did not think were best, for me:
GMG Lowering Spring (vs. Bilstein Coilover)
Dog Bones (rear upper control arms - several Porsche specialty shops contradict GMG on this recommendation and the GMG springs )
Rear Toe Link (might do this)
No Tarett
So just because GMG says something, does not mean I will blindly follow (or reject). Doesn't mean GMG or you are wrong, just mean I believe there are better choices *for me* -- all about me
. I do think that many vendors' (not just GMG, and not just car) recommendations are influenced by what they sell, or don't sell, and what their direct competitors sell.
A cursory google search also shows that this kind of drop links are used in several different cars, across several different brands.
http://images.google.com/images?q=drop%2...sa=N&tab=wi
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=h...ficial%26sa%3DN
BTW, haven't we been over this once already on this thread? http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=449462&page=0&fpart=9&vc=1 I don't doubt your decision is perfect for you, but just because you don't use something doesn't mean it is a novelty or wrong -- didn't Jason/Atomic80 complain about something similar?
Quote:
TT Surgeon said:
The drop links are one of the main things that will transmit NVD, the OEM one is actually designed with that in mind, it's meant to flex if it has to. This is why GMG does NOT recommend solid/heim joints in this link on any street driven car. FL told me the exact same thing, if these guys wanted to sell one more blue rod for 500$ it would be a no brainer....but they don't. Don't believe me, call 'em yourself.
Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur
I know; I have trouble myself finding some of the data I've (and others) posted. From my web based research -- LOL:
1. Coilover: Start with Billstein PSS10 -- the de facto recommendation of nearly every Porsche specialist in the US. There are more hard-core coilovers like Motons, etc., if you want to get serious but that's not for street and "dangerous" for amateurs to set up.
2. Sway bar: GMG or H&R. I have GMG but have no idea which one is "better." Just pick one.
Then rear toe control arm (from TRG, GMG, or Tarett -- I think GMG is most expensive) and Tarett drop links (check rennlist.com to see postings on this, not for everyone
but I love it). Both get many recommendations among either tuners or modders (rennlist.com's GT3 forum), in particular that rear toe control arm -- almost unanimous. Both add NVH so proceed with caution.
The beauty of the Bilstein coilover (as you probably already know coilover consists of spring and dampener):
1. You get rid of the stock dampener -- this is part of stock PASM. And stock PASM/dampener is an extremely suspicious character: Lower quality, made for a softer spring, and the hard/sport PASM setting is a flaw.
2. If the set-up is not stiff enough for you, the springs could be changed to a stiffer value (within a certain range) easily. I believe GT (posting above) does this.
3. Designed as a package, the spring matches the dampener perfectly.
I would not say that the above is the "best" since we all have our personal preference and obviously a shoot-out evaluation will never happen. But if you go to 6speedonline and email any one of those tuners -- except the ones that sell springs
, the recommendation for Bilstein PSS10 will be near unanimous. I am not sure, but I think a fair number of tuners in Europe use it as well. The Bilstein PSS10 Damptronic is the star of the show IMHO. Everything else could be added on an as-needed basis -- "eclou" is my personal advisor (grin) on technical matters and I believe he only uses Bilstein with nothing else added. He is knowledgeable & has taken his modded Turbo to 190 mph, FWIW.
1. Coilover: Start with Billstein PSS10 -- the de facto recommendation of nearly every Porsche specialist in the US. There are more hard-core coilovers like Motons, etc., if you want to get serious but that's not for street and "dangerous" for amateurs to set up.
2. Sway bar: GMG or H&R. I have GMG but have no idea which one is "better." Just pick one.
Then rear toe control arm (from TRG, GMG, or Tarett -- I think GMG is most expensive) and Tarett drop links (check rennlist.com to see postings on this, not for everyone
but I love it). Both get many recommendations among either tuners or modders (rennlist.com's GT3 forum), in particular that rear toe control arm -- almost unanimous. Both add NVH so proceed with caution.
The beauty of the Bilstein coilover (as you probably already know coilover consists of spring and dampener):
1. You get rid of the stock dampener -- this is part of stock PASM. And stock PASM/dampener is an extremely suspicious character: Lower quality, made for a softer spring, and the hard/sport PASM setting is a flaw.
2. If the set-up is not stiff enough for you, the springs could be changed to a stiffer value (within a certain range) easily. I believe GT (posting above) does this.
3. Designed as a package, the spring matches the dampener perfectly.
I would not say that the above is the "best" since we all have our personal preference and obviously a shoot-out evaluation will never happen. But if you go to 6speedonline and email any one of those tuners -- except the ones that sell springs
, the recommendation for Bilstein PSS10 will be near unanimous. I am not sure, but I think a fair number of tuners in Europe use it as well. The Bilstein PSS10 Damptronic is the star of the show IMHO. Everything else could be added on an as-needed basis -- "eclou" is my personal advisor (grin) on technical matters and I believe he only uses Bilstein with nothing else added. He is knowledgeable & has taken his modded Turbo to 190 mph, FWIW.
Quote:
GTRUS said:
Long topic...Lots of info...At the end of the day ...What is the best suspension package that is good for daily driven 997 TT with lots of extra power, that will be good for street and track ???
Oct 12, 2008 3:11:33 PM
- TT Surgeon
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Oct 12, 2008 3:37:17 PM
- cannga
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Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur
Sure and no problem Chris, but unless you've tried it in your car, I think what you are saying is speculation.
Anyway, for the sake of discussion, which component in a suspension mod does not increase NVH? It's a matter of degree, and my tuner actually told me in his experience the rear upper control arm is the one that adds the most NVH. Stiffness with the drop link is too much, for me, only in the stiff setting. But isn't that what it's supposed to do -- *stiff* setting? Medium and soft (for LA and NY) are perfect. The benefit to me is more than worth it. The car just feels bouncy and rubbery without the Tarett drop link, to me.
Stiffer and adjustable drop link is a tried and true mod, I am not blazing a trail here: http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/suspension-sway-bar-links-c-4208_4213.html
Anyway, for the sake of discussion, which component in a suspension mod does not increase NVH? It's a matter of degree, and my tuner actually told me in his experience the rear upper control arm is the one that adds the most NVH. Stiffness with the drop link is too much, for me, only in the stiff setting. But isn't that what it's supposed to do -- *stiff* setting? Medium and soft (for LA and NY) are perfect. The benefit to me is more than worth it. The car just feels bouncy and rubbery without the Tarett drop link, to me.
Stiffer and adjustable drop link is a tried and true mod, I am not blazing a trail here
: http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/suspension-sway-bar-links-c-4208_4213.html
Quote:
TT Surgeon said:
Can, you can run whatever you want, really. I'm just agreeing with your findings re the rougher ride with links...that's all. Trying to save somebody a real life headache.
Oct 13, 2008 2:37:53 PM
- TT Surgeon
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Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur
Can, I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, please don't take this out of context.
In my experience, ALL suspension mods effect ride quality to some degree, on that we can agree. The drop links and sway bushings cause a lot of NVH as well, GMG and Farnbacherloles both hold to this, since they are consistant Grand Am and Rolex winners I think their opinions are more than speculation. They even differ with regard to the teflon sway bushings that GMG includes with the sway bar, FL doesn't use those at all. The sway bar is the one part of the suspension they seem to want some 'give', on a street car. Seems to work.
Re the stiff setting, with mine, it's only marginally stiffer over the middle position on the street and track, not dramatic at all, probably due to the stock drop links and stock sway bushings.
My most NVH provoking mod is probably the solid front thrust bushings, otherwise it is the perfect setup for me on the street as a DD and in the Red group on the track.
C
In my experience, ALL suspension mods effect ride quality to some degree, on that we can agree. The drop links and sway bushings cause a lot of NVH as well, GMG and Farnbacherloles both hold to this, since they are consistant Grand Am and Rolex winners I think their opinions are more than speculation. They even differ with regard to the teflon sway bushings that GMG includes with the sway bar, FL doesn't use those at all. The sway bar is the one part of the suspension they seem to want some 'give', on a street car. Seems to work.
Re the stiff setting, with mine, it's only marginally stiffer over the middle position on the street and track, not dramatic at all, probably due to the stock drop links and stock sway bushings.
My most NVH provoking mod is probably the solid front thrust bushings, otherwise it is the perfect setup for me on the street as a DD and in the Red group on the track.
C
Oct 13, 2008 3:49:22 PM
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GT
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Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur
Ok your debate makes me nervous guys.. U guys are talking about droplinks and ride quality while as we speak my mechanic is installing solid thrust bushings AND monoballs f/r.. Sth tells me I might have to start thinking about which bushings to revert back to stock first after I test drive the car next week..
Oct 13, 2008 3:57:19 PM
- cannga
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Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur
Chris, would never think to start a "fight" with a seasoned veteran like you. That GT-R thread on 6speedonline is a fight , this is a friendly discussion.
The speculation was about your opinion, not GMG/Farnbacherloles's. You've not tried the Tarett on your car, and, your car has GMG spring, not Bilstein. There are at least 3 members here who have done it with Bilstein; we have no problem whatsoever, at least not that I've read about. In fact I think car feels a tad rubbery and bouncy without it. There are numerous users on rennlist, same result: No one ever reverts back to stock drop link.
GMG/Farnbacherloles: As I've already mentioned, GMG suggested lowering springs to me instead of Bilstein PSS10, and regardless of their experience, I do think their recommnedation might be tainted by the fact that they are a business. And Tarett is a direct competitor. Farnbacherloles: You told me the story in PM. I've looked and found not a SINGLE incident of Tarett's reliability problem. I think there are more to the story and Farnbacherloles is hardly Tarett's friend. Let's not go into that, please?
Second, if you are going to quote GMG/Farnbacherloles, I could quote Cantrell and Lucent. I don't think we are going anywhere there.
My notation about Atomic is just a very friendly reminder: You could be harsh on things you don't have, like Cargraphic vs. Tubi, and now the Tarett drop link. There are many components in your car that increase NVH, yet you picked on the Tarett, the single thing you don't have, as a "no" recommendation, without direct experience, twice now in this thread. You quote 2 installers that are hardly neutral voice.
I don't want to distract from the star of the show, the Bilstein PSS10. So could we please agree to disagree here and if you would like to talk drop link, start another thread, best yet on rennlist's GT3 forum? I could even try to get Tarett to come to comment if you like.
As far as the stiff setting of your car, just asking a few questions here, no opinion: Could it be that the angle form between drop link and sway bar is so acute that the drop link is no longer effective? Force vector, instead of up and down, is now lateral as well and acts to bend the drop link instead of the sway bar? This would be a good topic in YOUR new thread. I have some pictures that might help to show the issue.
, this is a friendly discussion.
The speculation was about your opinion, not GMG/Farnbacherloles's. You've not tried the Tarett on your car, and, your car has GMG spring, not Bilstein. There are at least 3 members here who have done it with Bilstein; we have no problem whatsoever, at least not that I've read about. In fact I think car feels a tad rubbery and bouncy without it. There are numerous users on rennlist, same result: No one ever reverts back to stock drop link.
GMG/Farnbacherloles: As I've already mentioned, GMG suggested lowering springs to me instead of Bilstein PSS10, and regardless of their experience, I do think their recommnedation might be tainted by the fact that they are a business. And Tarett is a direct competitor. Farnbacherloles: You told me the story in PM. I've looked and found not a SINGLE incident of Tarett's reliability problem. I think there are more to the story and Farnbacherloles is hardly Tarett's friend. Let's not go into that, please?
Second, if you are going to quote GMG/Farnbacherloles, I could quote Cantrell and Lucent. I don't think we are going anywhere there.
My notation about Atomic is just a very friendly reminder: You could be harsh on things you don't have, like Cargraphic vs. Tubi, and now the Tarett drop link. There are many components in your car that increase NVH, yet you picked on the Tarett, the single thing you don't have, as a "no" recommendation, without direct experience, twice now in this thread. You quote 2 installers that are hardly neutral voice.
I don't want to distract from the star of the show, the Bilstein PSS10. So could we please agree to disagree here and if you would like to talk drop link, start another thread, best yet on rennlist's GT3 forum? I could even try to get Tarett to come to comment if you like.
As far as the stiff setting of your car, just asking a few questions here, no opinion
: Could it be that the angle form between drop link and sway bar is so acute that the drop link is no longer effective? Force vector, instead of up and down, is now lateral as well and acts to bend the drop link instead of the sway bar? This would be a good topic in YOUR new thread. I have some pictures that might help to show the issue.
Quote:
TT Surgeon said:
Can, I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, please don't take this out of context.
In my experience, ALL suspension mods effect ride quality to some degree, on that we can agree. The drop links and sway bushings cause a lot of NVH as well, GMG and Farnbacherloles both hold to this, since they are consistant Grand Am and Rolex winners I think their opinions are more than speculation. They even differ with regard to the teflon sway bushings that GMG includes with the sway bar, FL doesn't use those at all. The sway bar is the one part of the suspension they seem to want some 'give', on a street car. Seems to work.
Re the stiff setting, with mine, it's only marginally stiffer over the middle position on the street and track, not dramatic at all, probably due to the stock drop links and stock sway bushings.
My most NVH provoking mod is probably the solid front thrust bushings, otherwise it is the perfect setup for me on the street as a DD and in the Red group on the track.
C
Oct 13, 2008 4:36:30 PM
- Alex_997TT
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Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur
Can I quickly just say that my setup as it now (-20mm, Bilstein's, medium sway settings, bilstein drop-links at front, stock drop-links at rear, dog-bone and toe-steer kits) is on the very edge of what is tolerable for UK A and B-roads.
I have to do 60mph down bumpy b-roads for the ride to smooth out. Any slower and the car starts vibrating your teeth out!
Hit a pot hole and BOY do you feel it. I thought I broke a axel after hitting one at 20mph on my passengers side front wheel at the weekend. Luckily everything was fine afterwards. No more single track b-roads for me anymore. Sacrifices have to be made!!
I have to do 60mph down bumpy b-roads for the ride to smooth out. Any slower and the car starts vibrating your teeth out!
Hit a pot hole and BOY do you feel it. I thought I broke a axel after hitting one at 20mph on my passengers side front wheel at the weekend. Luckily everything was fine afterwards. No more single track b-roads for me anymore. Sacrifices have to be made!!
Oct 13, 2008 4:46:43 PM
- cannga
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Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur
I know Alex, same here. It's too bad we can't have different cars with different systems to compare. I would LOVE to be able to test a car set up like yours. While I miss my car dearly when I don't drive it, there is no way that I would declare it the best suspension setup. I remain curious of the possibilities.
It's too bad we can't have different cars with different systems to compare. I would LOVE to be able to test a car set up like yours. While I miss my car dearly when I don't drive it, there is no way that I would declare it the best suspension setup. I remain curious of the possibilities.
Quote:
Alex_997TT said:
Can I quickly just say that my setup as it now (-20mm, Bilstein's, medium sway settings, bilstein drop-links at front, stock drop-links at rear, dog-bone and toe-steer kits) is on the very edge of what is tolerable for UK A and B-roads.
I have to do 60mph down bumpy b-roads for the ride to smooth out. Any slower and the car starts vibrating your teeth out!
Hit a pot hole and BOY do you feel it. I thought I broke a axel after hitting one at 20mph on my passengers side front wheel at the weekend. Luckily everything was fine afterwards. No more single track b-roads for me anymore. Sacrifices have to be made!!
Oct 13, 2008 5:13:46 PM
- Alex_997TT
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Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur
I personally would say that the handling improvement is night and day compared to how the car was set up from the factory.
HOWEVER, I would say that you can get 75% of that improvement JUST from taking your car to a geometry and corner-balance specialist at a fraction of the cost of going the full hog.
Saying that; Bilstein's do make the ride more creamy and I would say make the Sport PASM setting much much much better than stock.
So if I were recommending to another Turbo owner what to do now, then I would say to do it in stages and test then whether you want more:
Stage I: geometry and corner-balance done by knowledgeable Porsche racing shop
Stage II: Bilstein B16 Damptronics (Bilstein front, stock rear drop-links) + GMG Sways + 15mm drop F/R
Stage III: Toe-steer and dog-bone kits + 20mm drop F/R
Stage IV: Replacement drop-links + Thrust bushings + Strut braces
HOWEVER, I would say that you can get 75% of that improvement JUST from taking your car to a geometry and corner-balance specialist at a fraction of the cost of going the full hog.
Saying that; Bilstein's do make the ride more creamy and I would say make the Sport PASM setting much much much better than stock.
So if I were recommending to another Turbo owner what to do now, then I would say to do it in stages and test then whether you want more:
Stage I: geometry and corner-balance done by knowledgeable Porsche racing shop
Stage II: Bilstein B16 Damptronics (Bilstein front, stock rear drop-links) + GMG Sways + 15mm drop F/R
Stage III: Toe-steer and dog-bone kits + 20mm drop F/R
Stage IV: Replacement drop-links + Thrust bushings + Strut braces
Oct 14, 2008 3:28:05 AM
- TT Gasman
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Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur
I agree with Alex, a proper alignment will get you 75% of the way, the other 25% comes from lower CG stiffer components etc. All at a price,in a monetary and practical sense. A lowered car will scrape more, period. My car is 1 inch lower with the Champion springs, I would not want it any lower- hell it might be too low now. A stiff track setup will quickly become tiresome on the street.
But one point of disagreement, you do not need a strut brace on any 996 0r 997. Anybody trying to sell you one is just that...trying to sell you something. The factory part is used on the Cup cars, that should be good enough for any street car.
But one point of disagreement, you do not need a strut brace on any 996 0r 997. Anybody trying to sell you one is just that...trying to sell you something. The factory part is used on the Cup cars, that should be good enough for any street car.
Oct 14, 2008 3:29:32 AM
- TT Surgeon
- Senior
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- Loc: Long Island, NY , United States
- Posts: 783, Gallery
- Registered on: Dec 28, 2004
- Reply to: Alex_997TT
Oct 14, 2008 9:43:30 PM
- TT Gasman
- Co-Pilot
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- Loc: Texas , United States
- Posts: 241, Gallery
- Registered on: Jun 18, 2002
- Reply to: TT Surgeon
Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur
Somre interesting discussion on sway bar:
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=450131&highlight=bar
It's interesting to me because someone is trying settings different from the somewhat common recommendation of full soft front, full stiff rear (to reduce understeer).
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=450131&highlight=bar
It's interesting to me because someone is trying settings different from the somewhat common recommendation of full soft front, full stiff rear (to reduce understeer).
Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur
Yes there are several ways to address under and oversteer, tire pressures, spring rates and sway bars are the most common. Really easy to do on a race car, for example on a Sprint Cup car it's easy to crank down the jack plates and change the track bars making big changes on a 15 second pit stop .
.
Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur
So I just got my car back after adding to the existing setup (damptronics, sways, toe links) dog bones, gt3cup lower control arms with solid thrust bushings and monoballs f/r, rs engine mounts. I was very eager to see the effect of effectivelly eliminating all these rubber bushings. Well the car is definately stiffer on bumps etc but.. it is overall even more planted than before.. You can feel that there is now no geometry changes under load with subsequently much better control. Cornering on good tarmac its virtually impossible to find the limit (on public roads that is) while on slippery surfaces you can sees the real advantage of this setup. The car is a lot less nervous under braking and under load transition, thus allowing for much better control over the limit (I love this!). The engine mounts are pretty good as well since you can suddenly feel how much the engine was moving while accelerating, braking, cornering..
The damptronic springs have pretty decent damping rates so the ride is still acceptable, however the potholes are definately the enemy now! Well I guess you cant have it all. Regarding the oversteer problem I had, this was solved by increasing the toe-in in the back to 3.5mm from 1m.
Now the other thing I added (non suspenion related) is the GT2 intake. Interestingly the car feels slower since the boost has dropped (expansion intake) since I have not (yet) modified the ecu to accomodate for that. I am very curious to see the power gains when the car is custom tuned on the dyno. It certainly feels that the ignition timing is now more aggressive (lower intake temps) especially after 5k rpm, however the effective boost has definatelly dropped (not shown in the instrument).
Next and final mod for now, GT2 type titanium exhaust with 200 cats (can't wait to get rid of that drone) and then straight to the dyno in time for track day at paul ricard!
The damptronic springs have pretty decent damping rates so the ride is still acceptable, however the potholes are definately the enemy now! Well I guess you cant have it all. Regarding the oversteer problem I had, this was solved by increasing the toe-in in the back to 3.5mm from 1m.
Now the other thing I added (non suspenion related) is the GT2 intake. Interestingly the car feels slower since the boost has dropped (expansion intake) since I have not (yet) modified the ecu to accomodate for that. I am very curious to see the power gains when the car is custom tuned on the dyno. It certainly feels that the ignition timing is now more aggressive (lower intake temps) especially after 5k rpm, however the effective boost has definatelly dropped (not shown in the instrument).
Next and final mod for now, GT2 type titanium exhaust with 200 cats (can't wait to get rid of that drone) and then straight to the dyno in time for track day at paul ricard!
Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur
550+, is that the one that costs about 20K? Very nice!
BTW, just curious, did Ruf have any comment regarding the Bilstein? I would have thought they have some proprietary suspension mod of their own?
I would be interested in your report of the Ruf mod. Porsche Turbo, the gift that keeps taking.
BTW, just curious, did Ruf have any comment regarding the Bilstein? I would have thought they have some proprietary suspension mod of their own?
I would be interested in your report of the Ruf mod. Porsche Turbo, the gift that keeps taking.
Quote:
Alcyon said:
Thanks Cannga, i'm going to do it, I have a date this month with Mr. Ruf (550+ Bilstein)
Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur
Well its not really a track car just yet.. The stiffness in potholes should be similar to TTsurgeon's and maybe a bit more that alex's. A stock GT2 (with rollbar) and a GT3/GT3rs are actually harsher. The springs in the damptronics are pretty compliant and hence the ride is still acceptable. Re ecu tune, I already have ecu/modded vtgs/ICs/exhaust so now with the new intake I need to retune the ecu to bring the boost (and ignition timing) up to normal again (as the gt2 intake effectively reduces boost together with temperatures)
Oct 20, 2008 2:20:12 AM
- TT Surgeon
- Senior
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- Loc: Long Island, NY , United States
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- Registered on: Dec 28, 2004
- Reply to: GT
Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur
TTsurgeon (and anyone else who has experience on the subject) do you have the monoball bushing in the front, as well as the gmg thrust bushing?
I installed both and I am afraid the monoball is bringing some clinking noise (on top of the clinking noise that the droplinks bring) as well as a friction noise from the brakes.
Just wondering if anyone else has similar experience with this past for the front control arm (rear is fine). I was getting conflicting reports about this so I decided to install it. I really like the performance aspect but I may have to change that 1 component.
Also I decided that with my setup I will revert to normal droplinks for the winter london hybernation mode (as well as softest sway settings) and reinstall the tarret's in spring when I start track the car, take it to europe etc.
I believe it is a small job that will improve stiffness for city driving by quite a bit. This is my idea for as much as possible 2to1 setup with minimum cost..
I installed both and I am afraid the monoball is bringing some clinking noise (on top of the clinking noise that the droplinks bring) as well as a friction noise from the brakes.
Just wondering if anyone else has similar experience with this past for the front control arm (rear is fine). I was getting conflicting reports about this so I decided to install it. I really like the performance aspect but I may have to change that 1 component.
Also I decided that with my setup I will revert to normal droplinks for the winter london hybernation mode (as well as softest sway settings) and reinstall the tarret's in spring when I start track the car, take it to europe etc.
I believe it is a small job that will improve stiffness for city driving by quite a bit. This is my idea for as much as possible 2to1 setup with minimum cost..
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