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    Re: GT-R Next To Me At a Stop Light : Now What?

    There sure is a disproportionate amount of Porsche haters lurking on this forum whose soul purpose seems to either be trying to convert Porschephiles to GM or Nissan. It seems to me that up until recently North American manufacturers were having difficulty making cars that could turn a corner half as well as they could accelerate in a straight line. Now that the playing field is leveling out, the Porsche bashing has reached an all time high. I don't remember reading an article about a new performance car in recent history that doesn't try to compare it to something in the Porsche lineup. The 911 still remains the benchmark and as long as that's the case everyone is going to want a shot at the title.

    Re: GT-R Next To Me At a Stop Light : Now What?

    Forget cornering, just rented an H2, I couldn't drive straight with it, wobbling all over the place... Was confortable though...

    Re: GT-R Next To Me At a Stop Light : Now What?

    Quote:
    SciFrog said:
    Forget cornering, just rented an H2, I couldn't drive straight with it, wobbling all over the place... Was confortable though...



    LOL!

    Re: GT-R Next To Me At a Stop Light : Now What?

    Just get out of your cars, compare the size of your dicks and go about your day.

    Re: GT-R Next To Me At a Stop Light : Now What?

    Who was Porsche bashing? I missed that...

    And MMD, please don't take this the wrong way, but beyond your perception of how GM and/or Ford builds cars, what actual hands-on knowledge or authority do you possess to arrive at such an opinion?

    Are you a mechanic? An engineer? Have you put a new GM offering on a lift and taken a look around at how it's really assembled and designed under the clothing that you don't care for?

    I say this not to get you all riled-up or defensive, but to make the point that you can go to just about any car site or forum, and so many folks have these opinions about cars that are based upon past-history, or brand-identification, or gang-mentality animosity, or simple blind-assumption... Yet none of the commentors have ever laid a critical eyeball, or hands upon, the actual vehicle and it's inner-workings and underpinnings.

    Me, I try to approach every car with an open mind and a blank sheet of paper, also fairly keeping in mind the price-range and intended design purpose of the vehicle...

    I've perpetually got at LEAST one car in a thousand pieces in my shop... It causes you to look at things for what they are, not the IMAGE that they create once you've covered them up in dressy sheetmetal and placed badges on them.

    Anyhow, I've not time nor inclination to get into a big snit... I'm just telling you, from one Porsche lover to another, you're judging books by their covers to a large extent.

    Re: GT-R Next To Me At a Stop Light : Now What?

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    The better question is what he/she will say to you. My guess is,

    "Since I can't tell by looking at your car, unless your Porsche is a late model Turbo, don't even think about it."



    He/she could also say something like this:

    "My other car is a Carrera GT, this one is only for city commuting."

    Re: GT-R Next To Me At a Stop Light : Now What?

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    Who was Porsche bashing? I missed that...

    And MMD, please don't take this the wrong way, but beyond your perception of how GM and/or Ford builds cars, what actual hands-on knowledge or authority do you possess to arrive at such an opinion?





    Here's a few.

    Stuupid POS Ford Explorer was delivered to me WITHOUT A FKKN CLEARCOAT!

    Friends __EXTREME LUXURY__ Cadillac had a glove compartment like this: a hole in the dash, slanting away at knee level, WITH A FLAP covering it.

    Same Cadillac had "Chrome trim" which you rubbed your bare finger on and it scratched! Scratched; BAD!

    Fkkn GM POS automatically locked my wife out of her car, almost in the middle of nowhere, with the KEYS IN THE IGNITION!

    POS Mazda Tribute had AC intake right under hood so engine fumes became part of the interior air.

    Stupid rubber bumpers around doors of ford product POP OFF and bounce into the urban distance if you rub them or touch them.

    Woman at Tennis Club in her cadillac (which she hated!) had an orthopaedic cushion on the seat because the seat hurt her __HEALTHY_ back. Meaning: seat in the "luxury Cadillac" was the same cheap POS found in a cheaper model GM.

    Too numerous to mention, many have been forgotten.

    The working principle is this:

    GM/Ford etc KNOW their customers admire status cars like BMW and MB. GM/Fd also know their typical customers can't tell the difference between a BMW and a GM or Ford quality wise.

    Therefore GM and Ford can and plan to build crappy cars because their __LOYAL__ customers will not perceive the crappiness they put into them. Loyal customers will pay nearly the same amount as a comparable BMW costs and think they got a great deal! What they paid for is TOTAL bling of cheap but sparkly materials, crummy but soft leather, stuff like a glove compartment which is _stone age_ compared to BMW but they don't care about glove compartment inaccessibility design because they're not bright enough to expect more.

    It's that simple!!

    There's 500 more observations but I ain't got time now... .

    Re: GT-R Next To Me At a Stop Light : Now What?

    Quote:
    JoeRockhead said:
    Quote:
    mdrums said:
    Do the same thing you do now when a Corvette Z06 pulls up next to you....DO NOT RACE him unless you like to be embarrassed.


    You've got to be kidding, right? The turbo will be halfway to 60 before the Z06 finds any traction.

    FWIW:

    GT-R 0-60 - 3.3, 1/4 mile 11.6
    997TT Tip 0-60 3.4, 1/4 mile 11.6
    Viper 0-60 - 3.8, 1/4 mile 11.8
    Z06 0-60 - 4.1, 1/4 mile 12.0

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Dri...topanel..1.*#38





    Z06 + Right driver = Low 11's (1st gear goes upto 100km/h)

    Re: GT-R Next To Me At a Stop Light : Now What?

    Chris Harris didn't do too well in it. lol 4.20sec in.

    http://www.autocar.co.uk/VideosWallpapers/Videos.aspx?AR=231915&CT=V

    Re: GT-R Next To Me At a Stop Light : Now What?

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    Inside Line (and most other mags) report 0 - 60 mph for the GTR in 3.3 seconds. Some tests are as fast as 3.1 seconds. If you are in a manual Turbo you will lose the stoplight race to 60 by a good margin. The Turbo Tip will lose by a smaller margin.

    You could say stoplight races are for kids and real men only race from 250-300 km/h (where the Turbo should win). The 0-250 km/h times are very close.



    cmon man... theres a japanese video where TURBO and gtr are in a circuit and obvious, the gtr is smoking the turbo(japanese video).

    and after a corner both get a straight and its visible that the turbo its accelerating MORE! like 1,5 car lenght.

    i beat 2 997TT TIP with my manual TT.

    GIVE me 1 race from 50-...whatever KM/H... against the GTR!!!!!

    Re: GT-R Next To Me At a Stop Light : Now What?

    What I don't understand is how the GT2 just walks away from the Z06, I mean it crushes it in the Videos I have seen!

    Re: GT-R Next To Me At a Stop Light : Now What?

    Does it matter *what* the car next to you is ? Do you think it's smart to 'race' him ? Or necessary ? Why indulge him ? Just enjoy your car !!!

    Re: GT-R Next To Me At a Stop Light : Now What?

    Quote:
    Dubliner said:
    Does it matter *what* the car next to you is ? Do you think it's smart to 'race' him ? Or necessary ? Why indulge him ? Just enjoy your car !!!



    I can see a friendly little and harmless "race" for fun with any car for a couple hundred yards if no one is around. What I can't understand is all this yapping about times. There must be 500 posts recently about the gtr, mostly on the sports car board.

    Ring times and tenths of seconds here and there. SO WHAT, who cares. Anyone who buys a car because of lap times or 0-60 times is a nitwit.













    The GTR goes VROOOOM VROOOOM.

    Re: GT-R Next To Me At a Stop Light : Now What?

    Quote:
    MMD said:

    Here's a few.

    Stuupid POS Ford Explorer was delivered to me WITHOUT A FKKN CLEARCOAT!

    Friends __EXTREME LUXURY__ Cadillac had a glove compartment like this: a hole in the dash, slanting away at knee level, WITH A FLAP covering it.

    Same Cadillac had "Chrome trim" which you rubbed your bare finger on and it scratched! Scratched; BAD!

    Fkkn GM POS automatically locked my wife out of her car, almost in the middle of nowhere, with the KEYS IN THE IGNITION!

    POS Mazda Tribute had AC intake right under hood so engine fumes became part of the interior air.

    Stupid rubber bumpers around doors of ford product POP OFF and bounce into the urban distance if you rub them or touch them.

    Woman at Tennis Club in her cadillac (which she hated!) had an orthopaedic cushion on the seat because the seat hurt her __HEALTHY_ back. Meaning: seat in the "luxury Cadillac" was the same cheap POS found in a cheaper model GM.

    Too numerous to mention, many have been forgotten.

    The working principle is this:

    GM/Ford etc KNOW their customers admire status cars like BMW and MB. GM/Fd also know their typical customers can't tell the difference between a BMW and a GM or Ford quality wise.

    Therefore GM and Ford can and plan to build crappy cars because their __LOYAL__ customers will not perceive the crappiness they put into them. Loyal customers will pay nearly the same amount as a comparable BMW costs and think they got a great deal! What they paid for is TOTAL bling of cheap but sparkly materials, crummy but soft leather, stuff like a glove compartment which is _stone age_ compared to BMW but they don't care about glove compartment inaccessibility design because they're not bright enough to expect more.

    It's that simple!!

    There's 500 more observations but I ain't got time now... .




    Those are the types of quality issues you're rambling on??

    How scientific and objective...

    Thanks for so perfectly proving and illustrating my main point from my previous post...

    BTW, my wife thinks the sport seats my my 997S suck.... Does that mean they must really truly suck? Or is her idea of a good seat akin to a living-room sofa?

    Door bumpers share that same basic cone-through-hole design used by virtually every other automobile maker on the planet

    Some who-knows-how-old-Explorer that ostensibly "missed" the clear coat on the assembly line? Even if it were true, how random is that? And how is that more of a bitch than frequest RMS failures?

    The door-lock key-fob system on my 997 is schizoid at best, randomly deciding to not work and forcing me to use the key in the door, and then the alarm goes off... No biggie, I live with it. The system in my 993 was the worst I had ever owned, conceived by a monkey with a learning disability...

    Most every car pulls it's air off the cowl... If you didn't know, that area is a vacuum, the air sucks down off the windshield into the cowl, not the opposite direction. My dad's best friend's Bentley pulls it's a/c from the cowl, under the rear-edge of the hood.

    And a Porsche fan.., complaining about interior storage? Wow...

    I expected something more substantial....

    Let's just agree to disagree... I'm not trying to argue that U.S. vehicles are "better" than others... Besides, it's a complex as hell subject..

    I'm just saying it appears that you're predisposed... Unwilling to talk current-state-of-affairs without prior and extreme prejudice.

    Re: GT-R Next To Me At a Stop Light : Now What?

    Quote:
    racerx said:

    I can see a friendly little and harmless "race" for fun with any car for a couple hundred yards if no one is around. What I can't understand is all this yapping about times. There must be 500 posts recently about the gtr, mostly on the sports car board.

    Ring times and tenths of seconds here and there. SO WHAT, who cares. Anyone who buys a car because of lap times or 0-60 times is a nitwit.




    HaHa. I concur Dr.

    It's the agitating Car mags always proclaiming "PORSCHE KILLER!" so the guys driving the bargain-priced dispatcher go around looking for Porsches to hiss at.

    What to do when you encounter these good-value-hyenas? Has there been a TV show produced yet, called "When Caranimals Attack" based on urban sightings of proclaimed P-killers?

    Best thing is to "thumbs up" and ignore.

    What I like to do, now and then when it's ____safe____? Race and beat to dust some _smiling_ kid with a souped up Honda. I let off the gas, he passes me and he and his passenger are totally freeked out with thumbs' up and joy and laughter!

    That way I didn't have to exceed 120mph.

    Re: GT-R Next To Me At a Stop Light : Now What?

    I agree.... Getting to the point where you can't have any fun in life anymore... and safety is judged on a "if there's a one in five-million chance you'll have an incident, that's unsafe" measuring stick.

    One of my grandfathers last funny stories he told me before he died was how he and his pals would make these enormous bombs when they were kids, and detonate them in the woods behind their homes... They'd shake windows...

    Things have changed a tad in 80 years, you think??

    Re: GT-R Next To Me At a Stop Light : Now What?

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:


    I'm just saying it appears that you're predisposed... Unwilling to talk current-state-of-affairs without prior and extreme prejudice.



    Sorry my friend..., I can reliably tell a POS when I examine it.

    Apparently more and more Americans are also increasingly able to detect a POS since foreign mfgrs (BMW, Toyota, Honda, etc) have take over market GM, Ford, Etc share in the USA.

    One more point, The Cadillac Luxury will never be equivalent to BMW (for example) Luxury. Why? Because BMW spends millions on ergonomics of their cars and all model lines benefit. GM? merely takes the seats from an Impala and shoves them in the "Luxury" Cadillac after applying some third rate leather to them. Cadillac buyers are wholly ripped off, but they can't tell the difference anyway.

    Let's agree to disagree. But I looooove to spot sh*t when I see it. American ___LUXURY__ cars give me ohhhhh sooooo much pleasure when I get the chance to examine them.


    Re: GT-R Next To Me At a Stop Light : Now What?

    But that's my point MMD, you don't "know", you've zero automotive background, you're not closely tied to the industry, you're whole thing regarding these seats cross-applying hasn't applied to the Cadillac division for OVER A DECADE

    I've got parts texts for ALL cars here in my library that I use for sourcing and research. GM DOES NOT take seats from Impalas and "shove" them into Cadillacs with different upholstery... Maybe they did back in 1995 or something, but what the hell does that mean? Today, it's totally different frames, components, foam, EVERYTHING... It's plain as day.

    That's my frustration, you're ranting and ranting, and maybe you're right in certain "general" ways about quality, but your specific facts are all wrong and total speculation... With bad facts, your argument just looks hollow and ignorant.

    Even with equal quality, it takes YEARS for the public's PERCEPTION (like yours, John Q. I don't change my own oil Public) to turn around with it...

    The enormous stumble made by GM and Ford in the 70's through the 90's will take quite some time to recover from in the public's eye...

    Re: GT-R Next To Me At a Stop Light : Now What?

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    I agree.... Getting to the point where you can't have any fun in life anymore... and safety is judged on a "if there's a one in five-million chance you'll have an incident, that's unsafe" measuring stick.

    One of my grandfathers last funny stories he told me before he died was how he and his pals would make these enormous bombs when they were kids, and detonate them in the woods behind their homes... They'd shake windows...

    Things have changed a tad in 80 years, you think??



    perfect! races will not be dangerous if you know what you are doing and WHERE...

    you see how important is PORSCHE , always when there is a new (GOOD) car. its always a P-KILLER...

    ALWAYS PORSCHE, why not FERRARI, CORVETTE,LAMBO....

    THEY REALLY LOVE US, PORSCHE FANS!

    There is no Substitute...

    Re: GT-R Next To Me At a Stop Light : Now What?

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    But that's my point MMD, you don't "know", you've zero automotive background, you're not closely tied to the industry, you're whole thing regarding these seats cross-applying hasn't applied to the Cadillac division for OVER A DECADE

    I've got parts texts for ALL cars here in my library that I use for sourcing and research. GM DOES NOT take seats from Impalas and "shove" them into Cadillacs with different upholstery... Maybe they did back in 1995 or something, but what the hell does that mean? Today, it's totally different frames, components, foam, EVERYTHING... It's plain as day.

    That's my frustration, you're ranting and ranting, and maybe you're right in certain "general" ways about quality, but your specific facts are all wrong and total speculation... With bad facts, your argument just looks hollow and ignorant.

    Even with equal quality, it takes YEARS for the public's PERCEPTION (like yours, John Q. I don't change my own oil Public) to turn around with it...

    The enormous stumble made by GM and Ford in the 70's through the 90's will take quite some time to recover from in the public's eye...



    LOL... the 70's through the 90's! 30 years of sh*t cars and we're all supposed to know that they turned things around? Too little, too late. I worked at a Pontiac dealer when the Fiero recall was happening and they were replacing engines on the 2M4's under warranty. The ones that didn't burn to the ground, anyway. I saw more than a couple of Sunbird's come in for water leaks and when they pulled up the carpet and sound deadener the floor was full of rivets and cigarette butts. The Japanese cars that were coming into North America in the 80's were garbage but they've obviously turned that around now... I hope the big three can do the same.

    Re: GT-R Next To Me At a Stop Light : Now What?

    I can't resist. I have driven american cars and in the same price bracket, the gm's are horrible, fords a tad better, but neither compare in build quality to the toyotas i've rented. yes, i'm an engineer, and a designer. I can't speak to other brands as I haven't been in them lately. But I am repeatedly disappointed in the design, attention to detail, handling, road feel, and performance of just about every american car i've been in. Hoping to be surprised, but it hasn't happened yet. 69bossnine, if you were to pick the paragon of american car quality what would it be? I want to check it out!

    is quality the domain of the europeans? HARDLY! as much as I loved my vw, it was a total 4 year 50,000 mile bomb waiting to explode. and it did explode. and i have heard the same from every vw owner I know.

    but let's be honest. if you are buying a porsche to get a good value, straight-line-drag, you are a nut! I like my car because it is a fantastic combination of engineering and design. and i would bet that between average performance car owners on a track (not a drag) the difference in drivers will be far greater than the difference in cars. I will never forget seeing Sterling Moss absolutely school an accomplished driver in an 3.0 abarth carrera... ... in an 1100cc Austin Healy! The carerra would pass him on the straight at laguna, but Sterling would pass him in 1 and stay ahead till about half way down the straight.

    cars are fun. all cars. even the crummy ones! (despite being disappointed, i like have the diversity in driving experiences! makes driving the p-car, mini and bmw that much better...)

    Re: GT-R Next To Me At a Stop Light : Now What?

    Gesus, Lighten up 69bossnine. No arguing anymore. I think the cars are crap. They make good cheap cars for the masses. If you are a stupid mass you buy one of their "luxury" cars. The glove compartment in a __LUXURY__ CRX cadillac is an affront to Humanity. The chrome trim scratched with finger pressure, the mazda AC stank from engine fumes, the explorer came without a clear coat, the seats killed the back of an athletic woman, parts fell off the doors, carpeting was made to last one year, absolute crummy materials in those cars, dash made from soft recycled plastic (?) which easily and deeply scratches. Sorry 69 bossnine you're wrong on this one. GM, FOrd, etc make crappy cars for people who don't have the mentality nor ability to notice. They make me laugh! Conversation on this issue is OVER.

    Re: GT-R Next To Me At a Stop Light : Now What?

    Quote:
    MMD said:
    Conversation on this issue is OVER.



    Uh, what internet are you using?

    Re: GT-R Next To Me At a Stop Light : Now What?

    Ughhh.... My points keep getting missed like playing whiffle-ball at night..

    Oh well... Let's just not be blind hypocrites, shall we?? Drop by any used car lot and see just how well your perceived paragons of quality HOLD UP after several years of use... Time is the great equalizer. And when you're stuck in traffic, look around at the 20+ year-old sleds that are still managing to grunt their income-challenged owners around town... Take note of the makes and manufacturers of the junkers that still manage to run.... I'm not even going to imply what you'll see, just next time you're out, make a mental tally and think about it for a moment... What seems to survive out there, and what has just "disappeared" (to the junk yards to be recycled)??? Is quality what you see when you're shopping a car sitting on tile in a showroom, or is quality what's left after 250,000 miles of poorly-serviced torture?

    My wife owned a 6-year-old Camry when we first started dating... Drove fine, but was in the shop every-other-month with expensive repairs, and it's the only car I've ever sold that I felt GUILTY passing it onto the poor schmoe who had to borrow money to buy that falling-apart used car.

    Cadillac doesn't make anything called a CRX.... See what I'm saying? And if you're talking about the SRX, my dad's girlfriend is on her 3rd year with one, loves it to death, it looks just like the day he bought it for her, and she drives cross-country (Florida to Michigan) every summer with rave reviews... It's never been back to the dealer for anything other than scheduled service, period.

    And my wife is 112 lbs and runs 3-5 miles 4 times a week, so if you were insinuating my sports seats didn't fit her...

    And lastly, just to make a small point of clarity in this... Who makes the Porsche sports seats? Lear.... Who makes almost all of the seats for Ford, and many for GM?..... Lear.........

    So much of the componentry in many of these cars is built by shared 1st-tier suppliers.

    Lastly, this very forum is loaded with service issues and problems and rattles and leaks... I'm not complaining, and it's just par for the course with any maker... But people in glass houses......

    Re: GT-R Next To Me At a Stop Light : Now What?

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:


    Cadillac doesn't make anything called a CRX.... See what I'm saying? And if you're talking about the SRX, my dad's girlfriend is on her 3rd year with one, loves it to death, it looks just like the day he bought it for her, and she drives cross-country (Florida to Michigan) every summer with rave reviews... It's never been back to the dealer for anything other than scheduled service, period.





    WOW maybe we are on different planets. No problem.

    My sister had one and AS A LUXURY CAR it was the biggest piece of SH*T I've ever seen. No kidding!

    69 go check out the glove compartment in the SRX. Tell me that's Yugo-quality in a fkkn "luxury" car? "Chome" trim around windows, rub with thumb and create some stratches. Luggage room in rear: none - because of cheap [beep] rear suspension strut placement. Foot wells? Be sure your passenger has left foot amputee. Driver seat too low for non-tall women. Carpeting that sheds like a cheap rabbit fur coat.

    Yeah, nice car for a _cheap_ ride. IN NO WAY comparable quality wise to the X5 by BMW at same price range.

    No offense to GM loyalist buyers who are so busy they haven't had a chance to notice the differences and don't notice they got ripped off. Maybe if GM wasn't so strapped with pensions and other biz failures they would be able to make a good car, as opposed to focus grouping to cut corners so people don't notice them being cut.

    Re: GT-R Next To Me At a Stop Light : Now What?

    Quote:
    quietguy said:
    Quote:
    MMD said:
    Conversation on this issue is OVER.



    Uh, what internet are you using?



    LOL Good one! Stupid thing for me to have said.

    Basically, I _KNOW_ what I've seen and it's ugly. Nobody's gonna _TALK_ me out of it. I'm perfectly willing to be _SHOWN_ out of it. Lets stand there in a dealer lot and compare an X5 and an SRX or whatever and point for point show why the GM is a POS in design and materials while it claims to be a luxury car.

    Re: GT-R Next To Me At a Stop Light : Now What?

    Quote:
    MMD said:
    What will you guys say and/or do?


    Even though I am now much faster than a GT-R in a straight line I still wouldn't race him.

    I would just smile, and pull away really leisurely - like it's not even worth my effort.

    Sorry, I am a huge snob about who I put my car up against. The GT-R is for kids in their 20s who love neon under-lighting and hang around in car parks after midnight with all their other mates doing doughnuts followed by a quick chase by the police [pretty much an average night out for my younger brother in his Evo, but he will grow out of it ]

    Re: GT-R Next To Me At a Stop Light : Now What?

    Quick comparison between a stock Turbo and a GT-R. Shame they don't have the 0-200 and 0-300 data though for the GT-R.

    http://www.fastestlaps.com/index.php?pag...excludewet=true

    Re: GT-R Next To Me At a Stop Light : Now What?

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    Ughhh.... My points keep getting missed like playing whiffle-ball at night..



    as did mine. one of the joys of forums!

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:Oh well... Let's just not be blind hypocrites, shall we?? Drop by any used car lot and see just how well your perceived paragons of quality HOLD UP after several years of use...



    2 things--I didn't say any of the marks i own are paragons of quality, absolute, or not. personally, i think the bwm, mercedes, and porsche are pretty nice examples of german quality, but i don't have enough experience with all the marks to say... (note: before flaming note i'm using first hand experience, not speculating, and only stating personal belief, not fact!!!)

    2nd thing--i was not trying to be coy with the question, i'm totally serious and want to know! nothing would make me happier than to be delighted by an american made vehicle, and i humbly ask which vehicle you believe to represent america's best? Tesla? Cadillac SRX? XLR? Vette? Again, my experience with NEW american cars is what you can rent from hertz/avis... disappointing.

    And last thing--(so there were three) i agree that cars from 20+ years ago were a different story. there are some great american cars and trucks out there. And some that have gotten better with age (and tasteful modification )

    Re: GT-R Next To Me At a Stop Light : Now What?

    What impresses/encourages me isn't so much any current "snapshot" of U.S. quality, but the rate of improvement I'm seeing... Especially with Cadillac. Are they on-par with BMW or Mercedes? No, not yet, I never said that.

    But the gulf is narrowing, you can't argue that or close your eyes and cover your ears and yell "nah-nah-nah-nah". And where you may be able to nit-pick glove-boxes and chrome trim (honestly, all that stuff from all manufacturers is "coated", and I'm wondering if your scratches are really scratches, or if they disappear with a single swipe of a foam wax pad..), it's also true that out-the-door they are still in a different price category. You can call the X5 a competitor to the SRX, but the base-price of the 6-banger is $7K different, and $10K on the V8, with less standard equipment. It's all relative, and if you want better quality, you've gotta pay.. You can say that Cadillac should build better quality, and charge BMW prices for it, but maybe their business-model shows that there's more of a market for something more affordable, which would be a business decision.. And there's nothing wrong with that. You guys always rant about cutting corners to lower a price, but it just makes you appear out of touch with the real world, where consumers don't have the LUXURY of deep pockets, and manufacturers are tasked with creating the best-value they can at a sane price. There's nothing wrong with that, nothing to "sneer" at, when a manufacturer prioritizes VALUE.

    Any-hoo, I think what's got me on a Caddy-defending tangent is that when I was at Amelia Island, they had a pre-production CTS-V there on display, in a meteor-grey shade with parchment and cocoa interior, and I really loved the car. Fit and finish was on-par to the mercedes SL 50-feet away from it, and the all-new interior was very nicely done. And (gasp, here I go..) FOR THE MONEY (yes, I appreciate value) I found it to be highly attractive. A very noble effort for a maker that was really out-of-the-game not too long ago. What a turnaround. I don't know why it's "not cool" to give credit where it's due, and to cheer on a company that's at least giving it a good fight, instead of just folding up shop or continuing status-quo..

    In the "cars for mortals" category, the new Impala very-much has struck some fear in Toyota and Honda, and rightly so. There's hope, if the trends continue forward for GM..

    Ford I'm less optimistic about, but this Alan Mulally seems to be a real maverick, so I wouldn't count them out just yet.

    So go ahead, laugh at the last 30 years of U.S. mediocrity. Everything seems to run in cycles, and it wasn't that long ago that Mercedes 3.8L V8's were tossing timing chains and BMW interiors wrinkled like potato-chips in the sun and heat.

    I wish all manufacturers the best, as WE are the winners/benefactors when competition is robust and aggressive.

     
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