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    Aug 2, 2004 11:53:24 PM

    ArthurY
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    ArthurY
    Loc: Los Angeles, CA
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    Registered on: May 26, 2004

    Value of the C2S compared to the C2

    What's the relative "value" of the 997 C2 compared with the C2S?

    Adding four options to the C2 that come standard on the C2S - Bi-Xenon lights, 19" wheels, 3-spoke sport steering wheel, and PASM - brings the two models to within $5000 of each other. What extra does that money bring in the C2S? Primarily, the new, larger engine has about 10% more horsepower and 8% more torque for a car that is about 50 pounds heavier with a slightly worse drag coefficient and that gets to 60 mph a fifth of a second quicker. The C2S has bigger brakes, aluminum-faced instruments, dual-twin tailpipes and a very slightly thicker front stabilizer bar. While the numbers are not yet published, it's probable that the bigger engine will have slightly worse gas mileage, but more significantly it is version 1.0 of the 3.8 engine, vs. the time-tested 3.6, almost unchanged from several years in the 996. Every engineer recognizes how much is unknown in any new engine's iteration.

    To people where $5000 makes a difference (even in an almost $80,000 + car), are these C2S characteristics "enough"? Of course there's the unknown of resale value....

    Aug 3, 2004 1:09:23 AM

    Moogle
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    Moogle
    Loc: Bay Area , United States
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    Reply to: ArthurY

    Re: Value of the C2S compared to the C2

    this has been discussed thoroughly.

    this is a method of marketing called bundling in which a product has 'options/etc' that when added to that product(in order to bring said product to a 'good featured' rating), will bring price to within range of a higher product for a "nominal" fee.

    i say nominal because as you mentioned, at an 80k price point, 5k more shouldn't make a different, if only for bragging rights alone (which is not the only thing you get with the S)

    in order to rationalize the S, besides bragging rights, i would like to think it is less likely to suffer from RMS...? as there were significant improvements over the M96 on this S engine but not on the base engine.

    it is well worth it, if you can then you must, but if you can't you are already stretched too far.

    Aug 3, 2004 2:35:25 AM

    Seattle USA
    Junior
    Seattle USA
    Loc: Seattle, WA
    Posts: 77, Gallery
    Registered on: Jul 5, 2004
    Reply to: Moogle

    Re: Value of the C2S compared to the C2

    You're right, it's been well discussed. The "S" is only a slam dunk if you think the options Porsche has tacked on are valuable. There are many changes that Porsche has made to the 997 to create the "S" model that I don't like:

    1. The fake quad exhaust.
    2. The bling bling 19" rims that have zero performance benefit.
    3. The "bumper car" sport steering wheel.
    4. The questionable usefulness of PASM.
    5. 50lbs more weight.
    6. Worse gas mileage (worse range).

    More HP is nice (and the red brakes and silver "S" are pretty), but 325hp should be just fine for my daily travels.

    Financially I could have easily bought either one...I got the 997.

    People buy these cars for all sorts of reasons, and the value the put on the various options is always a personal one. Publicly I try to keep a low profile, and thus anything remotely in the "bling bling" or "bragging rights" category is a major negative for me. For others its just the opposite.

    You can't just add up the Porsche prices to get an answer. It's the Porsche prices relative to your own personal calculation that's important. Something like PASM and 19" rims doesn't necessarily get you closer to meeting the $10K gap, its possible for it to get you further away!

    Aug 3, 2004 4:11:08 AM

    kauai_diver
    Junior
    kauai_diver
    Loc: SF Bay Area, Ca
    Posts: 93, Gallery
    Registered on: Feb 26, 2004
    Reply to: ArthurY

    Re: Value of the C2S compared to the C2

    Quote:
    ArthurY said:
    What's the relative "value" of the 997 C2 compared with the C2S?

    Adding four options to the C2 that come standard on the C2S - Bi-Xenon lights, 19" wheels, 3-spoke sport steering wheel, and PASM - brings the two models to within $5000 of each other. What extra does that money bring in the C2S? Primarily, the new, larger engine has about 10% more horsepower and 8% more torque for a car that is about 50 pounds heavier with a slightly worse drag coefficient and that gets to 60 mph a fifth of a second quicker. The C2S has bigger brakes, aluminum-faced instruments, dual-twin tailpipes and a very slightly thicker front stabilizer bar. While the numbers are not yet published, it's probable that the bigger engine will have slightly worse gas mileage, but more significantly it is version 1.0 of the 3.8 engine, vs. the time-tested 3.6, almost unchanged from several years in the 996. Every engineer recognizes how much is unknown in any new engine's iteration.

    To people where $5000 makes a difference (even in an almost $80,000 + car), are these C2S characteristics "enough"? Of course there's the unknown of resale value....



    I had to add up the options in US $ to verify your $5000 difference just to be sure

    Actually I came up with $4880, but close enough. Very good points, I didnt know it came down to ~$5000 for an extra 30hp, untested new engine, the slightly thicker stablizer bar, and bigger brakes.

    Now I'm curious about the brakes. I wonder why the better brakes is not an option on the base 997, and I wonder how much it would be if it was.

    The 997s is definately a better deal for the hp upgrade than last years x21 package for the 996 at ~$11,000, which got you up to 345hp.

    Nice info,
    Kauai

    Aug 3, 2004 9:24:36 AM

    Carlos from SpainM
    Rennteam Moderator
    Carlos from Spain
    Loc: Spain. , Spain
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    Reply to: Seattle USA

    Re: Value of the C2S compared to the C2

    I think 996 owners have a different point of view which I can sum up very quickly: the 997 offers NO noticeable performance advantage over the 996 nor does it offer any better sporty driving experience. All you get is a new interior and facelifted exterior. If thats what you value more then the 997 is worthwhile, otherwise for 996 owners the only worthwhile purchase is the 997S which offers better handling, engine, brakes, etc.

    Aug 3, 2004 2:01:22 PM

    Pentium Offline
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    Pentium
    Loc: Earth , Romania
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    Reply to: Seattle USA

    Re: Value of the C2S compared to the C2

    Same thing here: I had the option to buy a Lamborghini Gallardo, a 997s, a 997 or a Maserati Coupe. I picked the 997. I consider the 997C2S a showoff car.

    Carlos: if I want a better car than my current 996 I would go for the 996-Turbo or the 996-GT3, not for the 997S. But that's just me

    Aug 3, 2004 4:13:02 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
    Rennteam Moderator
    Carlos from Spain
    Loc: Spain. , Spain
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    Registered on: Feb 9, 2003
    Reply to: Pentium

    Re: Value of the C2S compared to the C2

    Fair enough, those are also upgrades to the 996C2, its all a matter of needs and prefs

    Aug 3, 2004 4:53:27 PM

    Paul S in TX
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    Paul S in TX
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    Posts: 259, Gallery
    Registered on: Jun 20, 2002
    Reply to: ArthurY

    Re: Value of the C2S compared to the C2

    Quote:
    ArthurY said:

    To people where $5000 makes a difference (even in an almost $80,000 + car), are these C2S characteristics "enough"? Of course there's the unknown of resale value....



    I think this statement answers the question--if you have to ask the question, is it "enough" for you, then get the C2.

    BTW, I wouldn't let this "new" engine idea scare me away from the C2S--I personally don't think the 3.6 engine will win any contest as far as being some kind of tried and true engine (for that, buy a Turbo, GT2 or GT3, not anything with the M96 engine), and the 3.8 isn't some radically new design, just a newer M96 engine variant.

    As for relative resale values--well which car would you pay more for used, a c2 or a c2S? Will it be dollar for dollar--no. But generally speaking, Porsche sells many options that literally add nothing to resale value and surely don't make the car perform better or go faster. So to me, the money's well spent. I'd get the C2S--really I'm holding out for a Turbo or GT3 with a DSG/clutchless manual. But a C2S is what I'd buy if I were buying today.

    Aug 15, 2004 9:10:08 AM

    Rasta
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    Rasta
    Loc: New York, NY, USA
    Posts: 125, Gallery
    Registered on: Aug 15, 2004
    Reply to: Paul S in TX

    Re: Value of the C2S compared to the C2

    Great posts by everybody. Good to hear both sides of the argument.

    Aug 15, 2004 1:46:57 PM

    TT Gasman
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    TT Gasman
    Loc: Texas , United States
    Posts: 241, Gallery
    Registered on: Jun 18, 2002
    Reply to: Rasta

    Re: Value of the C2S compared to the C2

    Does the base 3.6 also benefit from the technological advances found on the 3.8, like the improved oil scavenging ? Or is the 3.6 completely unchanged from the 996?

    Aug 15, 2004 2:06:56 PM

    RCA
    Rennteam Administrator
    RC
    Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany
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    Registered on: Mar 26, 2002
    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: Value of the C2S compared to the C2

    Quote:
    carlos fromspain said:
    I think 996 owners have a different point of view which I can sum up very quickly: the 997 offers NO noticeable performance advantage over the 996 nor does it offer any better sporty driving experience. All you get is a new interior and facelifted exterior. If thats what you value more then the 997 is worthwhile, otherwise for 996 owners the only worthwhile purchase is the 997S which offers better handling, engine, brakes, etc.



    Very well said, Carlos. After 500 km in the 997 Carrera S, I can put my signature under your "declaration".

    Aug 15, 2004 2:09:54 PM

    RCA
    Rennteam Administrator
    RC
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    Registered on: Mar 26, 2002
    Reply to: Pentium

    Re: Value of the C2S compared to the C2

    Quote:
    Pentium said:
    Same thing here: I had the option to buy a Lamborghini Gallardo, a 997s, a 997 or a Maserati Coupe. I picked the 997. I consider the 997C2S a showoff car.



    You should have bought the Gallardo.
    The 997 Carrera S a "showoff" car?
    It is a pity that you think that way because I drove both and it is a difference like day and night.
    But of course the 997 Carrera I drove had the standard chassis with the 18'' wheels and my 997 Carrera S has the 20 mm option with LSD and 19'' wheels.

    Aug 15, 2004 2:24:23 PM

    RCA
    Rennteam Administrator
    RC
    Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany
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    Registered on: Mar 26, 2002
    Reply to: Seattle USA

    Re: Value of the C2S compared to the C2

    Quote:
    Seattle USA said:
    1. The fake quad exhaust.
    2. The bling bling 19" rims that have zero performance benefit.
    3. The "bumper car" sport steering wheel.
    4. The questionable usefulness of PASM.
    5. 50lbs more weight.
    6. Worse gas mileage (worse range).




    1. I agree regarding the exhaust but most people don't even notice it
    2. really? Did you drive the standard Carrera chassis with 18'' in comparison to the 20 mm option with 19''? I did and I can tell you it is a difference like day and night. Not only bling, bling...
    3. I like the steering wheel very much but I think this is just a case of personal taste
    4. PASM is very useful, especially for a daily driver. Trust me, you don't want to drive in the 20 mm chassis to work every day.
    5. more weight? Right. But this also depends on the options you choose. I have PCCB which already lowers the weight by 25 kg. And a fully equipped 997 Carrera weighs the same as my 997 Carrera S because PASM also adds weight.
    6. Gas mileage? Range? You should buy a VW Polo 3L, it takes only 3-4 litres/100 km, the perfect daily driver over here in Germany, just a little bit pricey.

    It is very interesting to see comments about the 997 from people who not only never drove one but probably even never saw one in reality.
    This remembers me of my discussions back in 1999 when I told people about my first 996 Turbo testdrive in a prototype (I attached the picture, shot in Nov. 1999!!!). Especially 993 Turbo owners but also 993 C4S owners made a lot of weird and unfounded comments. When the 996 Turbo showed up (and I got the first dealer car ), people were crazy about getting one, paying up to 50000 US Dollars premium for a car. If they would have listened to me...

    But you have to see the 997 in person, drive it, experience it and then we talk again. Deal?

    Aug 15, 2004 2:27:25 PM

    RCA
    Rennteam Administrator
    RC
    Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany
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    Registered on: Mar 26, 2002
    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Value of the C2S compared to the C2

    Second picture with open door, just in case somebody thinks I just passed by and took a snapshot...

    A little anecdote: my wife always orders something "special" when we go out to a Restaurant. I usually order what I know and what I like.
    Guess what, my wife ends up begging me to give her something from my food because she doesn't like what she ordered. It happens all the time. Maybe you guys should eat what I eat but of course I love Italian food and hate Sushi.

    Aug 15, 2004 2:31:22 PM

    vtrader
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    vtrader
    Loc: Los Angeles
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    Registered on: Jun 6, 2004
    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Value of the C2S compared to the C2

    So which would be better:

    1) A standard 997 with 19" wheels and PCCB or

    2) A standard 997S with PASM and no PCCB?

    The cost would be about the same.

    Aug 15, 2004 3:03:46 PM

    RCA
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    RC
    Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany
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    Registered on: Mar 26, 2002
    Reply to: vtrader

    Re: Value of the C2S compared to the C2

    Quote:
    vtrader said:
    So which would be better:

    1) A standard 997 with 19" wheels and PCCB or

    2) A standard 997S with PASM and no PCCB?

    The cost would be about the same.



    Better for what purpose?

    We shouldn't make the mistake by thinking that every 911 driver wants it stiff and sporty, some prefer some comfort too and some don't like nervous steering behaviour or loud exhaust notes.
    If you're asking me what is the more sporty setup, I'd go for the 997 S with PASM. Don't forget that the 997 S already has the 996 Turbo brake system, so the PCCB is just an additional goodie but not really needed.
    But be aware that if you go PASM, you're "stuck" with it.
    No more coilover kits, lowering springs, etc.
    If you're not that type of guy anyway, a 997 S with PASM is the way to go.

    I find it somehow strange that Porsche doesn't offer a "conventional" chassis for the 997 S. Maybe they just have to adapt the 20 mm chassis to US laws, at least I hope so. It is worth it.

    And don't forget one thing: the 997 GT3 is coming too, no need to hurry if you don't want a 997 NOW.
     
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