Crown

lexs4:

nberry:

I suspect 99% of Porsche owners don't have a clue as to who Redman is. I'll also wager they probably wouldn't take the time to Google him.

I'm a yokel from Kentucky and I know who he is.  My guess is people who are long time sports car racing or IMSA fans know him.  Outside of that probably not...

This speaks much of the evolution of Porsche away from niche sports car builder to luxury vehicle manufacturer. Unfortunately, this trend isn't new as I recall attending a Porsche driving school in early 2000 when the 996 was first introduced.  One individual proudly proclaimed that he had owned twenty plus Porsches over the years but he wasn't prolific in the use of, the then prevalent, manual transmission.  This was demonstrated many, many times during the next couple of days with a few stalls and too many runs into the rev limiter.  Some of us still view Porsche, and the art of driving, as synonymous, instead of having the latest shiny status bobble.  Porsche is about heritage and that heritage involves numerous famous race car drivers including Brian Redman.  Every Porsche aficionado should have, at the very minimum, Karl Ludvigsen's "Porsche: Excellence was Expected" book on his bookcase.  

Not a small book/books!!

https://www.amazon.com.au/Porsche-Excellence-Expected-Comprehensive-Heritage/dp/0837602351

Looks brilliant. Thanks

DJM48:

Not a small book/books!!

https://www.amazon.com.au/Porsche-Excellence-Expected-Comprehensive-Heritage/dp/0837602351

Looks brilliant. Thanks

The publisher's pricing looks better than Amazon's pricing:   http://www.bentleypublishers.com/porsche/history/porsche-excellence-was-expected.html

Another great book for the Porsche bookcase is Ferry Porsche's autobiography, "Ferry Porsche: Cars are My Life."   https://www.amazon.com/Ferry-Porsche-Cars-Are-Life/dp/1852602597

CGX car nut:

lexs4:

nberry:

I suspect 99% of Porsche owners don't have a clue as to who Redman is. I'll also wager they probably wouldn't take the time to Google him.

I'm a yokel from Kentucky and I know who he is.  My guess is people who are long time sports car racing or IMSA fans know him.  Outside of that probably not...

This speaks much of the evolution of Porsche away from niche sports car builder to luxury vehicle manufacturer. Unfortunately, this trend isn't new as I recall attending a Porsche driving school in early 2000 when the 996 was first introduced.  One individual proudly proclaimed that he had owned twenty plus Porsches over the years but he wasn't prolific in the use of, the then prevalent, manual transmission.  This was demonstrated many, many times during the next couple of days with a few stalls and too many runs into the rev limiter.  Some of us still view Porsche, and the art of driving, as synonymous, instead of having the latest shiny status bobble.  Porsche is about heritage and that heritage involves numerous famous race car drivers including Brian Redman.  Every Porsche aficionado should have, at the very minimum, Karl Ludvigsen's "Porsche: Excellence was Expected" book on his bookcase.  

I know you didn't intend to do so but your post is an exercise of living in the past.

Why should those that want to live in the past criticize those that don't want to or care. Many of us are interested in the present and what Porsche has to offer. I don't get any kicks from a race driver 50 years ago doing the Ring in 10 minutes or whatever. You may believe they know the "art of driving" and those who focus on Porsche today don't. But the facts are cars and drivers of the past are inferior to those of today.

I don't begrudge anyone from immersing themselves in Porsche's past but to find fault with those who don't give a rats ass about the past is just wrong. I get tired of people telling me unless you drive a MT Porsche you're not a driver. I have owned MT Porsche's and Ferrari's. Compared to today's Porsche's and Ferrari's, those cars are a piece of shit. People pay unbelievable sums of money for them only to store them and bring them to car shows. Museum pieces, nothing more.

So please can we drop the pretension and acknowledge the heritage crap is nothing more than a marketing device to those willing to succumb to it.

Where the willingness is great, the difficulties cannot be great.

nberry:I get tired of people telling me unless you drive a MT Porsche you're not a driver. I have owned MT Porsche's and Ferrari's. Compared to today's Porsche's and Ferrari's, those cars are a piece of shit. People pay unbelievable sums of money for them only to store them and bring them to car shows. Museum pieces, nothing more.

If you venture to the race track, you'll see a number of Manual Porsches being driven in anger - not being rubbed with a diaper or taken to car shows.  And often these cars are passing PDK Porsches and DCT Ferraris.  I've seen a number of manual Ferraris at the track too (including real 250 GTO's and P4 as well).

I also don't think it's fair to say drivers from an older era are lesser than today's drivers, just because the cars have gotten faster.

--

18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

Grant:

nberry:I get tired of people telling me unless you drive a MT Porsche you're not a driver. I have owned MT Porsche's and Ferrari's. Compared to today's Porsche's and Ferrari's, those cars are a piece of shit. People pay unbelievable sums of money for them only to store them and bring them to car shows. Museum pieces, nothing more.

If you venture to the race track, you'll see a number of Manual Porsches being driven in anger - not being rubbed with a diaper or taken to car shows.  And often these cars are passing PDK Porsches and DCT Ferraris.  I've seen a number of manual Ferraris at the track too (including real 250 GTO's and P4 as well).

I also don't think it's fair to say drivers from an older era are lesser than today's drivers, just because the cars have gotten faster.

--

 

18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

 

Sorry Grant, I forgot you own one of the older Porsche's which you track. It was't personal. But I am becoming exasperated by the various auto sites extolling the virtues of MT drivers and those of us who appreciated PDK as inferior. Plus, telling us how the older cars have more feel and the newer cars as sanitized. 

Also, many stating that people should not buy a GT3 or RS unless they plan to track the car. Otherwise you're a poseur. I am tired of that crap!

I know you're not one of them and if you were offended by my post I apologize.

--

Where the willingness is great, the difficulties cannot be great.

Nick,

I think rennlist should be your gig for a while..... Then come back with an understanding of how rennteam is refreshing.  Did you google the Black Adder? 

Grant:

nberry:I get tired of people telling me unless you drive a MT Porsche you're not a driver. I have owned MT Porsche's and Ferrari's. Compared to today's Porsche's and Ferrari's, those cars are a piece of shit. People pay unbelievable sums of money for them only to store them and bring them to car shows. Museum pieces, nothing more.

If you venture to the race track, you'll see a number of Manual Porsches being driven in anger - not being rubbed with a diaper or taken to car shows.  And often these cars are passing PDK Porsches and DCT Ferraris.  I've seen a number of manual Ferraris at the track too (including real 250 GTO's and P4 as well).

I also don't think it's fair to say drivers from an older era are lesser than today's drivers, just because the cars have gotten faster.

--

 

18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

 

The cars may have become faster, but not necessarily the drivers.  Many times the horsepower wars are a cover for less-than-adequate driving skills since, as you aware, proper braking and turn are more effective than stomping on that loud pedal.  

nberry:

CGX car nut:

lexs4:

nberry:

I suspect 99% of Porsche owners don't have a clue as to who Redman is. I'll also wager they probably wouldn't take the time to Google him.

I'm a yokel from Kentucky and I know who he is.  My guess is people who are long time sports car racing or IMSA fans know him.  Outside of that probably not...

This speaks much of the evolution of Porsche away from niche sports car builder to luxury vehicle manufacturer. Unfortunately, this trend isn't new as I recall attending a Porsche driving school in early 2000 when the 996 was first introduced.  One individual proudly proclaimed that he had owned twenty plus Porsches over the years but he wasn't prolific in the use of, the then prevalent, manual transmission.  This was demonstrated many, many times during the next couple of days with a few stalls and too many runs into the rev limiter.  Some of us still view Porsche, and the art of driving, as synonymous, instead of having the latest shiny status bobble.  Porsche is about heritage and that heritage involves numerous famous race car drivers including Brian Redman.  Every Porsche aficionado should have, at the very minimum, Karl Ludvigsen's "Porsche: Excellence was Expected" book on his bookcase.  

I know you didn't intend to do so but your post is an exercise of living in the past.

Why should those that want to live in the past criticize those that don't want to or care. Many of us are interested in the present and what Porsche has to offer. I don't get any kicks from a race driver 50 years ago doing the Ring in 10 minutes or whatever. You may believe they know the "art of driving" and those who focus on Porsche today don't. But the facts are cars and drivers of the past are inferior to those of today.

I don't begrudge anyone from immersing themselves in Porsche's past but to find fault with those who don't give a rats ass about the past is just wrong. I get tired of people telling me unless you drive a MT Porsche you're not a driver. I have owned MT Porsche's and Ferrari's. Compared to today's Porsche's and Ferrari's, those cars are a piece of shit. People pay unbelievable sums of money for them only to store them and bring them to car shows. Museum pieces, nothing more.

So please can we drop the pretension and acknowledge the heritage crap is nothing more than a marketing device to those willing to succumb to it.

+1000

There is certainly no need to criticize others just coz they are different, enjoy different things, or don't know some old dude. We are here sharing our passion for sports cars and are lucky enough to be able to enjoy such luxuries. 

watt:

Nick,

I think rennlist should be your gig for a while..... Then come back with an understanding of how rennteam is refreshing.  Did you google the Black Adder? 

2017 991.2 Carrera 4 GTS | GT Silver Metallic - The GT3 Killah!
2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White

watt:

Nick,

I think rennlist should be your gig for a while..... Then come back with an understanding of how rennteam is refreshing.  Did you google the Black Adder? 

 Watt, your a man of few words but that’s all you need.

i am sick and tired of people telling many of us we shouldn’t buy a car because we are not good enough. I tracked cars for many years and after awhile it becomes boring. Same track doing the same thing, round and round,  burning fuel, tearing up tires and wearing down brakes. For what? So you go around a second or two faster? 

Give me an exciting road to drive with different road conditions and scenery. That’s what sport cars are for. 

Grant, you and I disagree on whether drivers are better today than yesteryear. Drivers of today are athletes who train in various disciplines to enhance their driving skills. Most drivers of the past did not consider themselves athletes or at least didn’t act like one. The car of today are so sophisticated and powerful, drivers of the past wouldn’t have a clue or skill level to come close to the maximum capability of today’s car.

Where the willingness is great, the difficulties cannot be great.

CGX car nut:

lexs4:

nberry:

I suspect 99% of Porsche owners don't have a clue as to who Redman is. I'll also wager they probably wouldn't take the time to Google him.

I'm a yokel from Kentucky and I know who he is.  My guess is people who are long time sports car racing or IMSA fans know him.  Outside of that probably not...

This speaks much of the evolution of Porsche away from niche sports car builder to luxury vehicle manufacturer. Unfortunately, this trend isn't new as I recall attending a Porsche driving school in early 2000 when the 996 was first introduced.  One individual proudly proclaimed that he had owned twenty plus Porsches over the years but he wasn't prolific in the use of, the then prevalent, manual transmission.  This was demonstrated many, many times during the next couple of days with a few stalls and too many runs into the rev limiter.  Some of us still view Porsche, and the art of driving, as synonymous, instead of having the latest shiny status bobble.  Porsche is about heritage and that heritage involves numerous famous race car drivers including Brian Redman.  Every Porsche aficionado should have, at the very minimum, Karl Ludvigsen's "Porsche: Excellence was Expected" book on his bookcase.  

Could not agree more!

I really thought that Porsche had started to reverse that path when they relaunched their LMP1 project, but alas it was cancelled.

I still have a hard time understanding how a company invests the type of money that they did for the LMP1 project (new offices and other infrastructures, many top flight people, technology, etc) and throws it almost all away after 4 short years. 

For me, it is the brain drain that accompanies that withdrawal that is the worst. Many really good people will eventually leave Porsche , not because they are a bad company to work for, but because these people enjoy motorsport (at the top level) and want to be involved in that . The development and the competition.

From a long term marketing perspective, the withdrawal once again from a top flight motorsport program indicates a lack of interest in "creating and inspiring" future gear-heads. It disassociates Porsche from the  "hard core" sportscar image. (...and no, FE is not a good substitute)

They are now concerned  with changing the image of the company to one of a very PC company. I have noticed over the last year, that their decisions seem to be primarily politically driven...especially since the CEO has taken over. It is one thing to have to comply with regulations; It is quite another to want to be perceived as being "more Catholic than the Pope". Porsche is coming across to me as trying to be just that.

It saddens me to no end, and all I can say to Porsche is that if you don't know where you came from, you will never know where you are going.

Well, if "hardcore Image" means going to the race track on weekends and driving the same car to the office the next day, then Porsche is enough hardcore to me, MT or PDK, GT or whatever.

nberry:

watt:

Nick,

I think rennlist should be your gig for a while..... Then come back with an understanding of how rennteam is refreshing.  Did you google the Black Adder? 

 Watt, your a man of few words but that’s all you need.

i am sick and tired of people telling many of us we shouldn’t buy a car because we are not good enough. I tracked cars for many years and after awhile it becomes boring. Same track doing the same thing, round and round,  burning fuel, tearing up tires and wearing down brakes. For what? So you go around a second or two faster? 

Give me an exciting road to drive with different road conditions and scenery. That’s what sport cars are for. 

 

quote of the year

d997h:

Well, if "hardcore Image" means going to the race track on weekends and driving the same car to the office the next day, then Porsche is enough hardcore to me, MT or PDK, GT or whatever.

The point is that in days of yore, if sportscars or motorsport was discussed, then the Porsche name was inevitably brought up. There was a strong association between the brand and these disciplines or types of car.

In the future that link will be gone. It is a sad state of affairs for some of us. For other's it's like water off a ducks back. For Porsche: They don't care (any more), as long as the money rolls in and they are perceived as doing the "right thing"  and Executive bonuses get paid.

the-missile:

Targa Tim:

As a modern Porsche owner, I thought we only need to know who Whoopsy is

As a modern R8 fan and sportscar in general, you need to know RC

I know who Whoopsy is... 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mini JCW (2015)

So I wonder if there is anything to say about the GT2RS here in the GT2RS thread... :)

For you who needs a red 1:18 here it is:

https://shop2.porsche.com/germany/modelcar/exclusive_manufaktur/wax02100037/911-gt2-rs-weissach-paket-indischrot-1-18-inkl-gt2-rs-cap-limited-edition.pdds

Lava

https://shop2.porsche.com/germany/modelcar/exclusive_manufaktur/wax02100036/porsche-911-gt2-rs-1-18-lavaorange-limited-edition.p...

Give me an exciting road to drive with different road conditions and scenery. That’s what sport cars are for.

Indeed the quote of the year and very true. I got bored of track racing myself but maybe this is an age thing. 

There is nothing I could accomplish anymore from a driver's point of view, unless I would go pro again and I do not plan this, I cannot afford that and there are so many talented (much younger) people out there. A friend of mine drove a couple of years in the Alpenpokal but finally stopped because it was too much money and he also got into a beef with Porsche at some point (damaged engine, long story).

Also, nowadays tracks are often overcrowded and even if you do some organized events, they are expensive (for me, sorry... ) and in the end, they don't provide the satisfaction I am usually looking for. The good thing in the end were the people participating and meeting new interesting guys (and gals) but other than that... 

I am always looking forward to some of our (rare) weekend drives with various sportscars and some very interesting (pro) drivers who join us. Nothing really organized, nothing paid, just a couple of cars and a couple of guys having fun for a weekend, no strings attached. I love these "events" but they get rarer (for me) because I simply cannot afford missing work. Most of these guys are former driving pros or entrepreneurs and can afford doing this during the week or to stay a whole weekend away from their families. Last time we stayed in an Austrian luxury resort, costed me over 900 EUR per night, just the room. Sorry but with two kids, this is just too much for a simple weekend, not even talking about the fuel cost, food and so on. I cannot afford paying 1500-4000 EUR per weekend, depending on what we do, just for driving fun. 

It is sad but this is the truth. To really enjoy myself driving, I would need to be retired and have much more financial possibilities than I have now. Kids are more important right now, so... 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mini JCW (2015)

... doing some 2-3 day road trips with a couple of buddies sharing the same values is priceless !

BjoernB:

... doing some 2-3 day road trips with a couple of buddies sharing the same values is priceless !

 No doubt, most amazing time...always but I think I have the "wrong"  buddies (from a financial point of view, they all are much wealthier than I am). I enjoy my time with them but when someone suggests "let's drive down to Monaco for a couple of days and rent a a nice house there...", this means at least 2-3k EUR, if not more. Sometimes, especially if it happens on weekends, I'm in (sometimes even my son joins me) but often, it happens during the week and I cannot afford that (from a work and/or financial point of view). Sad. 

A guy I know well (and who is basically a billionaire, well...his father) met me at a short stop where I got to meet with him and others just to say hello and he suddenly suggested "come with us and have fun for a couple of days". Just like that? The fact that this trip was 6k EUR or so also bothered me of course, so I declined. He didn't seem to understand but this is really a lot of money for me. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mini JCW (2015)

Your post almost made me cry, RC. So sad. 

2017 991.2 Carrera 4 GTS | GT Silver Metallic - The GT3 Killah!
2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White

When Bluelines asks me to join him for a track day with a stay over at an hotel , he always chooses 100 euro max places, and we eat pizza for 9 euro ......... pretty depressing    

RC , should should go out more with Bluelines 

--

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

Gnil:

When Bluelines asks me to join him for a track day with a stay over at an hotel , he always chooses 100 euro max places, and we eat pizza for 9 euro ......... pretty depressing    

RC , should should go out more with Bluelines 

yes, but R8 will stay behind during the track day so RC prefer wealthy friends session on highway at high speed corners

GT Lover, Porsche fan

991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

Cayenne GTS 2014

Bluelines is mine kind of guy :-)

the-missile:

Gnil:

When Bluelines asks me to join him for a track day with a stay over at an hotel , he always chooses 100 euro max places, and we eat pizza for 9 euro ......... pretty depressing    

RC , should should go out more with Bluelines 

yes, but R8 will stay behind during the track day so RC prefer wealthy friends session on highway at high speed corners

track is too boring 

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

Kobalt:

Bluelines is mine kind of guy :-)

I am hanging way too much with Sweedes . It started at school when I was 16 , my best friend was already one of those  

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

RC:

Give me an exciting road to drive with different road conditions and scenery. That’s what sport cars are for.

Indeed the quote of the year and very true. I got bored of track racing myself but maybe this is an age thing. 

There is nothing I could accomplish anymore from a driver's point of view, unless I would go pro again and I do not plan this, I cannot afford that and there are so many talented (much younger) people out there. A friend of mine drove a couple of years in the Alpenpokal but finally stopped because it was too much money and he also got into a beef with Porsche at some point (damaged engine, long story).

Also, nowadays tracks are often overcrowded and even if you do some organized events, they are expensive (for me, sorry... ) and in the end, they don't provide the satisfaction I am usually looking for. The good thing in the end were the people participating and meeting new interesting guys (and gals) but other than that... 

I am always looking forward to some of our (rare) weekend drives with various sportscars and some very interesting (pro) drivers who join us. Nothing really organized, nothing paid, just a couple of cars and a couple of guys having fun for a weekend, no strings attached. I love these "events" but they get rarer (for me) because I simply cannot afford missing work. Most of these guys are former driving pros or entrepreneurs and can afford doing this during the week or to stay a whole weekend away from their families. Last time we stayed in an Austrian luxury resort, costed me over 900 EUR per night, just the room. Sorry but with two kids, this is just too much for a simple weekend, not even talking about the fuel cost, food and so on. I cannot afford paying 1500-4000 EUR per weekend, depending on what we do, just for driving fun. 

It is sad but this is the truth. To really enjoy myself driving, I would need to be retired and have much more financial possibilities than I have now. Kids are more important right now, so... 

--

 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mini JCW (2015)

 

Indeed track is not for everyone. I love the idea of tracking but between the time that it would take away from the family, the hassles of you and your car to be safe and prepared, the possible repetition factor, the high cost if done insured and properly and with a nice car... But more importantly, as you age responsabilities shift. I have to make sure not only my family is taken care of, but also directly influence hundreds of peole’s lifes through my charity so if something happens at the track (or even on the road), it would just be plain stupid from my part. I love sport cars but only use a small fraction of their potential.

Porsche is now a very different company that some nostalgic people here want it to be. To me Porsche makes one interesting car: the Macan. The rest I have ZERO interest either because I cannot use the car with my family, or because the value equation that Porsche had a decade ago has simply vanished (ie cars not cool enough, not edgy in performance or design and/or way overpriced). We all adored Porsche when we grew up along with Ferrari, they made us dream and push further to succeed in our lives. Younger generations couldn’t care less anymore and our society is moving very fast to a pure autonomous world where transportation is a utility, not a passion.

The MT vs PDK debate is not one. People like one or the other, so be it. The real issue is Porsche not offering the choice on some of their coolest cars but no good reason except pure profit. If you add this to the recent price gouging, it enclines me to stop supporting Porsche completely by purschasing other brands who are not afraid to innovate and offer what people want without a bean counter behind every decision (ie McLaren and Tesla).

I have to ask Bluelines to pay for the extra toppings on my pizzas 

2015 911 GT3, 1964 Type 1

 bluelines and I go to McLaren events just to have free appetizers and drinks