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Re: 997 facelift-PDK and power info
Quote:
CarlosF said:
I hope rennteamers will not be disapointed by the PDK because, if this double clutch system is like the DSG from Audi, there will be near no motor brake. That is the reason why i don't like to drive my wife's Audi A3 sportback 3.2 DSG.
Carlos
This is the first time I have heard that double clutch transmissions reduce the amount of engine braking... not sure I understand as there is still the same direct connection between driveshaft and flywheel that there is with a standard clutch. Can anyone elaborate??
The main "complaint" I hear of DSG is that it is boring... that somehow in the quest for the perfectly smooth up/down shift, something has been lost. What I find interesting is that nobody has attempted to go in Ferrari's direction, ie. perfection of the single clutch sequential, which seems highly accepted by F buyers and generally well reviewed.
Re: 997 facelift-PDK and power info
Quote:
4trac said:Quote:
CarlosF said:
I hope rennteamers will not be disapointed by the PDK because, if this double clutch system is like the DSG from Audi, there will be near no motor brake. That is the reason why i don't like to drive my wife's Audi A3 sportback 3.2 DSG.
Carlos
This is the first time I have heard that double clutch transmissions reduce the amount of engine braking... not sure I understand as there is still the same direct connection between driveshaft and flywheel that there is with a standard clutch. Can anyone elaborate??
The main "complaint" I hear of DSG is that it is boring... that somehow in the quest for the perfectly smooth up/down shift, something has been lost. What I find interesting is that nobody has attempted to go in Ferrari's direction, ie. perfection of the single clutch sequential, which seems highly accepted by F buyers and generally well reviewed.
DSG is far superior to Ferrari's F1 system. PDK will shift even faster than the 60 m/s of the Scuderia.
it will blip, sing, scream and dance.....its all a matter of mapping and programming.
DSG might be boring cause currently it's in low powered cars......I doubt you would call the Veyron's DSG boring...
Re: 997 facelift-PDK and power info
Quote:
4trac said:
This is the first time I have heard that double clutch transmissions reduce the amount of engine braking... not sure I understand as there is still the same direct connection between driveshaft and flywheel that there is with a standard clutch. Can anyone elaborate??
The main "complaint" I hear of DSG is that it is boring... that somehow in the quest for the perfectly smooth up/down shift, something has been lost. What I find interesting is that nobody has attempted to go in Ferrari's direction, ie. perfection of the single clutch sequential, which seems highly accepted by F buyers and generally well reviewed.
F will have DSG on the upcoming F149 FYI. DSG is better but can be heavier ("double" clutch
).Although nowhere near the F F1 system, the SS Aston system is great, I am amazed everytime I change a gear, not boring at all. Boring is when you leave it on "D". Not computer can anticipate 100% what gear you will need next.
Re: 997 facelift-PDK and power info
Quote:
SciFrog said:
F will have DSG on the upcoming F149 FYI. DSG is better but can be heavier ("double" clutch
Although nowhere near the F F1 system, the SS Aston system is great, I am amazed everytime I change a gear, not boring at all. Boring is when you leave it on "D". Not computer can anticipate 100% what gear you will need next.
SciFrog - oops, I forgot about AM's single clutch system when I wrote that... but now that F has broken ranks (at least for the F149 which appears to be for a new kind of less frenetic F-buyer) will Aston similarly abandon the single clutch system or might they work to hone it a la Ferrari? (not sure who makes the guts of the Aston SS system).
I have some sympathy for the manufacturers in all this since even enthusiast buyers seem to be unable to agree on exactly what they want in a sequential... I see a bit of the Goldilocks dilemma... a bit too smooth.... a bit too harsh... might lead to more manual sales to avoid the angst.
Re: 997 facelift-PDK and power info
Regarding Aston Touchtronic 2 I can say that it is probably worlds best autbox(together with Jaguar XKR autbox). Better then any 7speed AMG Speedshift autbox...
Back to PDK. It will offer that 0.2s faster 0-100km/h but, only if you use LC.
Example-standard 997 Carrera 345hp
0-100km/h: 5.0s manual
0-100km/h: 4.8s PDK
PDK car is little bit heavier... How is it driving? Very well apparently but, it is aimed more at TIP costumers...
Back to PDK. It will offer that 0.2s faster 0-100km/h but, only if you use LC.
Example-standard 997 Carrera 345hp
0-100km/h: 5.0s manual
0-100km/h: 4.8s PDK
PDK car is little bit heavier... How is it driving? Very well apparently but, it is aimed more at TIP costumers...
Re: 997 facelift-PDK and power info
Quote:
KresoF1 said:
PDK car is little bit heavier... How is it driving? Very well apparently but, it is aimed more at TIP costumers...
That' s what would keep me from getting it.
If I am sure it would be a sporty setup I would be tempted, but if it is to replace the Tip and that the setting is mainly for comfort I would not want it..
Difficult choices are ahead, specially if orders are before testing !!!
Re: 997 facelift-PDK and power info
The more I think and read about any kind of automated transmission, the more I think of BORING, BORING, BORING.
The only reason to get any kind of automated tranny, double clutch or no, would be physical incapacity (like mdrums, a left leg amputee) or if for track racing with regs. allowing such a clutch and if such a clutch makes lap times slightly quicker. Otherwise, BORING, BORING, BORING....
The only reason to get any kind of automated tranny, double clutch or no, would be physical incapacity (like mdrums, a left leg amputee) or if for track racing with regs. allowing such a clutch and if such a clutch makes lap times slightly quicker. Otherwise, BORING, BORING, BORING....
Re: 997 facelift-PDK and power info
Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Regarding Aston Touchtronic 2 I can say that it is probably worlds best autbox(together with Jaguar XKR autbox). Better then any 7speed AMG Speedshift autbox...
I shall report that the 08 Vette Paddle-Shift box is not too shabby either. After many years of stick driving I finally have a sports car with a modern 6-speed auto. I am not ashamed to say that it shifts faster and more precisely that I can (and I shift manuals as well as anyone, thank you!). The C6's box also does auto blip donshifting as the best of them. I drove yesterday the now famous CA36 between Alton/Fortuna and Red Bluff, CA, and the gearbox (and the car of course) was flawless.
Note to OvertheHill on CA36: Yes you are right, plenty of opportunities to catch some air... Awesome road!
It's a funny thing
But I drove to work this morning in slow moving traffic and asked myself how much fun the drive would have been in my car with a flappy puddle gearbox.
Well assuming you flap your own puddles then the answer is probably not a lot - a somewhat "dry" experience if my neighbor's SMG M3 is anything to go by.
So you shove it into slushmatic mode and you don't have to do a thing, which begs the question of whether you should have bought a Lexus or Mercedes instead.
I came to the conclusion that, a bit like boiling water in a pan rather than microwave, even in slow-moving rush-hour traffic a proper stick shift is still going to be more enjoyable than the flappy puddle box.
But each to his own...
Well assuming you flap your own puddles then the answer is probably not a lot - a somewhat "dry" experience if my neighbor's SMG M3 is anything to go by.
So you shove it into slushmatic mode and you don't have to do a thing, which begs the question of whether you should have bought a Lexus or Mercedes instead.
I came to the conclusion that, a bit like boiling water in a pan rather than microwave, even in slow-moving rush-hour traffic a proper stick shift is still going to be more enjoyable than the flappy puddle box.
But each to his own...
Re: It's a funny thing
Quote:
Le Chef said:
I came to the conclusion that, a bit like boiling water in a pan rather than microwave, even in slow-moving rush-hour traffic a proper stick shift is still going to be more enjoyable than the flappy puddle box.
But each to his own...
I agree, especially because the Porsche gear box is state of the art : the first gear is the best i ever had in a car, very long with a god elasticity at low rev. A must in stop and go traffic.
Carlos
Re: It's a funny thing
Lived with SMG for four years in my M3 and it's still great.
Lots of guys don't get it but by not slinging your leg and arm around and making microfine movements with both feet saves A LOT of mental energy which can be focussed on what the car and road are doing. People assume that "unused" mental energy just sits there as the car's flying thru space.
Get on a track or your favorite road and get frisky with both, you'll see the "less involving" theory has little merit. Driving frisky is not boring and less involving.
Missing that continual and prolonged traditional _mechanical_ connection to the car on a Sunday drive might be a problem for some. Would definitely have been a problem when I was a kid and my car-hormones were high.
The shifts are extremely fast, the rev-matching is perfect and most importantly: there is zero "slushy or mushy" feeling to the power transmission; it is firm, positive and fast. BTW, how many times have you executed perfect, extremely fast, up- or downshifts in a curve?
Big plus for road cars is you can give yourself a break and put it in "auto" mode when the traffic has PITA potential.
Absurd comment: since paddle shifting has become necessary to win races, numerous F1 drivers have given up the sport because it became less challenging and they got bored because of "less involvement."
Lots of guys don't get it but by not slinging your leg and arm around and making microfine movements with both feet saves A LOT of mental energy which can be focussed on what the car and road are doing. People assume that "unused" mental energy just sits there as the car's flying thru space.
Get on a track or your favorite road and get frisky with both, you'll see the "less involving" theory has little merit. Driving frisky is not boring and less involving.
Missing that continual and prolonged traditional _mechanical_ connection to the car on a Sunday drive might be a problem for some. Would definitely have been a problem when I was a kid and my car-hormones were high.
The shifts are extremely fast, the rev-matching is perfect and most importantly: there is zero "slushy or mushy" feeling to the power transmission; it is firm, positive and fast. BTW, how many times have you executed perfect, extremely fast, up- or downshifts in a curve?
Big plus for road cars is you can give yourself a break and put it in "auto" mode when the traffic has PITA potential.
Absurd comment: since paddle shifting has become necessary to win races, numerous F1 drivers have given up the sport because it became less challenging and they got bored because of "less involvement."
Re: It's a funny thing
Quote:
MMD said:Absurd comment: since paddle shifting has become necessary to win races, numerous F1 drivers have given up the sport because it became less challenging and they got bored because of "less involvement."
What they do say though is the cars require less DRIVING skill. With flappy puddles, traction and stability controls the cars take care of the driver to keep the car on the track. However they now need better technical/analytical skills to interpret what all the electronics are doing, spending less time on the track and more time reading data.
I still feel the same about flappy puddle shifters like SMG and DSG, as I do about clip-on ties and velcro fasteners for shoes. They may be easier, but there's much less a sense of connectedness and accomplishment.
Re: It's a funny thing
Quote:
Le Chef said:Quote:
MMD said:Absurd comment: since paddle shifting has become necessary to win races, numerous F1 drivers have given up the sport because it became less challenging and they got bored because of "less involvement."
What they do say though is the cars require less DRIVING skill. With flappy puddles, traction and stability controls the cars take care of the driver to keep the car on the track. However they now need better technical/analytical skills to interpret what all the electronics are doing, spending less time on the track and more time reading data.
I still feel the same about flappy puddle shifters like SMG and DSG, as I do about clip-on ties and velcro fasteners for shoes. They may be easier, but there's much less a sense of connectedness and accomplishment.
Good points all, thanks for the education Le Chef..., I needed that.
To be fair, maybe I'm getting lazy and set in my ways. For example, it freaked me out big time the other day when I was hotdogging it and I ground my fourth gear pretty bad because I missed the clutch timing; startled the cr*p outta me and made me mad.
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