Apr 16, 2008 9:30:37 AM
- easy_rider911
- Rennteam VIP
-
- Loc: London , United Kingdom
- Posts: 22190, Gallery
- Registered on: Nov 8, 2004
- Reply to: nberry
Crown
Board: Other Sports Cars
Language: English
Region: Worldwide
Close
CloseForum - Thread
Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer th
Nick, what do you see each morning looking in the mirror? You surely brought up a valid consideration but do not provide the effort (and knowledge) to answer it by yourself.
They are not. The CGT is much more difficult to drive at the limit (as you sadly know) and provides a very peaky performance. The GT2 however, especially in conjunction with the new and specific Michelin tires, has a very broad performance plateau which is necessary to be fast on the Nordschleife, driven by a good driver that is. The extra performance the CGT exhibits can only be addressed by a very small number of drivers and I get the impression that even Walter Röhrl knows about that. I have discussed this with professional drivers and they agree that there is a sub 7:30 min laptime possible if driven by one of the elite drivers. The GT2's performance is much more accessible to the average amateur driver, due to setup, tires and the additional stability management. Have you ever been to the Ring, by the way? Just curious...
From personal experience I do know that the Z06 has been sold out in those recent years it has been on sale in Europe, the base version is a difference but not without reason. Drive one (405hp version), than you will find out. Providing a link that already gives the answer (mismanagement) is ridiculous if it doesn't prove one's point. What was your profession, by the way? Just curious...
Wholeheartedly agree. That is one silly statement, especially considering the background. Never knew your tires have seen a racetrack or DE ground. What was your favourite coffee chain, by the way? Just curious...
Quote:
nberry said:
The Ring times are almost identical. How much does torque have to do with a 7.32 run assuming the GT2 has more than the CGT which is very debateable.
They are not. The CGT is much more difficult to drive at the limit (as you sadly know) and provides a very peaky performance. The GT2 however, especially in conjunction with the new and specific Michelin tires, has a very broad performance plateau which is necessary to be fast on the Nordschleife, driven by a good driver that is. The extra performance the CGT exhibits can only be addressed by a very small number of drivers and I get the impression that even Walter Röhrl knows about that. I have discussed this with professional drivers and they agree that there is a sub 7:30 min laptime possible if driven by one of the elite drivers. The GT2's performance is much more accessible to the average amateur driver, due to setup, tires and the additional stability management. Have you ever been to the Ring, by the way? Just curious...
Quote:
nberry said:
Quote:
nberry said:
I suspect like Corvette, they do not anticipate a large market for the car in Europe. Europeans are notorious for staying within their family of products.
Why spend a lot of time and money on the car for Europe spec when they can better use the resources selling in the ROW? Honestly, the Sportauto test will be meaningless. It will be dated by at least two years and the car tested rather benign.
Well those in the know disagree with your Corvette assessment.
http://www.evo.co.uk/news/evonews/208946/chevrolet_corvette.html
From personal experience I do know that the Z06 has been sold out in those recent years it has been on sale in Europe, the base version is a difference but not without reason. Drive one (405hp version), than you will find out. Providing a link that already gives the answer (mismanagement) is ridiculous if it doesn't prove one's point. What was your profession, by the way? Just curious...
Quote:
easy_rider911 said:Quote:
nberry said:
... do you really believe tires would make a difference...
Hehe. From the guy whose signature reads "You will never win a race without understanding how tires work"
Sorry Nick - couldn't resist
Wholeheartedly agree. That is one silly statement, especially considering the background. Never knew your tires have seen a racetrack or DE ground. What was your favourite coffee chain, by the way? Just curious...
Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer th
Ferdie, as much as many of you like to huff and puff about tires being the difference, my point remains irrefutable. Which is most Porschephiles have criticised the GT-R as a fraud because one cannot defy physics i.e. you cannot have the same hp and weigh more and be faster than another car with same hp but is lighter.
Yet, you all then jump on the GT2 bandwagon and claim just that, you can defy physics with technology (so long as it is done by Porsche engineers?
). So tell me why can Porsche do it with the GT2 but Nissan can't with the GT-R? Or is it that you cannot accept what is obvious and what almost all car reviewers have stated; that Nissan engineers have kicked Porsche engineers ass. 
Finally FWIW, my mirror just smiles and shouts "YES".
Yet, you all then jump on the GT2 bandwagon and claim just that, you can defy physics with technology (so long as it is done by Porsche engineers?
). So tell me why can Porsche do it with the GT2 but Nissan can't with the GT-R? Or is it that you cannot accept what is obvious and what almost all car reviewers have stated; that Nissan engineers have kicked Porsche engineers ass. Finally FWIW, my mirror just smiles and shouts "YES".
Apr 16, 2008 4:35:33 PM
- JoeRockhead
- Rennteam VIP
-
- Loc: Topside , Monaco
- Posts: 8033, Gallery
- Registered on: Sep 17, 2007
- Reply to: nberry
Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer th
Quote:
nberry said:
Ferdie, as much as many of you like to huff and puff about tires being the difference, my point remains irrefutable. Which is most Porschephiles have criticised the GT-R as a fraud because one cannot defy physics i.e. you cannot have the same hp and weigh more and be faster than another car with same hp but is lighter.
Yet, you all then jump on the GT2 bandwagon and claim just that, you can defy physics with technology (so long as it is done by Porsche engineers?
Finally FWIW, my mirror just smiles and shouts "YES".
My comments regarding physics pertain to 0-60 and quarter mile times. Getting an object of x amount of mass to a certain velocity in a certain time requires a certain amount of HP. That's irrefutable.
On a race track there are variables like braking and cornering ability, as we have seen. For example, Top Gear got the 360CS (425HP) around their track 1 second faster than the newer, more powerful F430 (490 HP). This was attributed solely to the tires that the two cars were using in the test. The 360 had Pirelli's and the 430 had Bridgestone's. This result is not unlike the CGT / GT2 track times at the 'ring. Do you suppose Ferrari took a giant step backward with the 430, or do you think the tire argument is valid in this case?
I still maintain that Nissan probably missed the mark when they tested the finished GT-R against the 997 TT. I think they published the 473HP figure prematurely and were unable to backup their boasts about beating a TT with that figure; then they upped the HP by at least 50 to get the results they were looking for. I don't consider that kicking anyone's a**, but to each their own.
Apr 16, 2008 4:45:03 PM
- Italo
- Veteran
-
- Loc: UK , United Kingdom
- Posts: 1055, Gallery
- Registered on: Jan 29, 2007
- Reply to: easy_rider911
Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer th
Quote:
easy_rider911 said:Quote:
nberry said:
... do you really believe tires would make a difference...
Hehe. From the guy whose signature reads "You will never win a race without understanding how tires work"
Sorry Nick - couldn't resist
nice one easy, what a clown
Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer th
Quote:
nberry said:
Ferdie, as much as many of you like to huff and puff about tires being the difference, my point remains irrefutable. Which is most Porschephiles have criticised the GT-R as a fraud because one cannot defy physics i.e. you cannot have the same hp and weigh more and be faster than another car with same hp but is lighter.
Yet, you all then jump on the GT2 bandwagon and claim just that, you can defy physics with technology (so long as it is done by Porsche engineers?
Finally FWIW, my mirror just smiles and shouts "YES".
Nick,
You are apparently missing something very important(IMHO)...
GT-R is a great car, technology marvel with at least 520 CRANK Hp, NOT 480Hp as Nissan claims.
Point is that with 520Hp all Nissan claims are OK. BUT, NOT with 480Hp...
Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer th
Quote:
Italo said:Quote:
easy_rider911 said:Quote:
nberry said:
... do you really believe tires would make a difference...
Hehe. From the guy whose signature reads "You will never win a race without understanding how tires work"
Sorry Nick - couldn't resist
nice one easy, what a clown
If you believe tires will compensate over 10 seconds in performance your the clown.
Every car manufacturer will forget about improving hp, handling and aerodynamics by just changing tires. Gullibility is the trademark of those that fail to think. 
Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer th
Quote:
nberry said:Quote:
Italo said:Quote:
easy_rider911 said:Quote:
nberry said:
... do you really believe tires would make a difference...
Hehe. From the guy whose signature reads "You will never win a race without understanding how tires work"
Sorry Nick - couldn't resist
nice one easy, what a clown
If you believe tires will compensate over 10 seconds in performance your the clown.
Nick, the GT2 numbers are perfectly in line with a lightweight car, that has 530 bhp. The manufacturer is obligated by law to have no more than a 5% deviance in power from nominal values. The car in the supertest performs as expected in the straight line, but it would seem that old Horst managed to dig up some old Me-262 engines and strap them onto the GT2 for its Nordschleife run
. Tyres make a difference, and a big one at that.
Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer th
Quote:
nberry said:Quote:
Italo said:Quote:
easy_rider911 said:Quote:
nberry said:
... do you really believe tires would make a difference...
Hehe. From the guy whose signature reads "You will never win a race without understanding how tires work"
Sorry Nick - couldn't resist
nice one easy, what a clown
If you believe tires will compensate over 10 seconds in performance your the clown.
Nick, so why do they use different tyres during a grand prix
oops you forgot to paint your cheeks red 
clown
Apr 16, 2008 6:55:21 PM
-
Carlos from Spain
- Rennteam Moderator
-
- Loc: Spain. , Spain
- Posts: 21148, Gallery
- Registered on: Feb 9, 2003
- Reply to: Crash
Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer th
Quote:
Crash said:Quote:
nberry said:
If you believe tires will compensate over 10 seconds in performance your the clown.
Nick, the GT2 numbers are perfectly in line with a lightweight car, that has 530 bhp. The manufacturer is obligated by law to have no more than a 5% deviance in power from nominal values. The car in the supertest performs as expected in the straight line, but it would seem that old Horst managed to dig up some old Me-262 engines and strap them onto the GT2 for its Nordschleife run
This is becoming comical, I think Nick has yet realise that the Nring is 20km long
FWIW: just the difference from highperformance street tires vs semi-slics in the Nring already acount for 8 seconds aprox.
"You will never win a race without understanding how tires work."... Won any races lately Nick?
Apr 16, 2008 6:56:11 PM
-
Carlos from Spain
- Rennteam Moderator
-
- Loc: Spain. , Spain
- Posts: 21148, Gallery
- Registered on: Feb 9, 2003
-
Reply to:
Carlos from Spain
Apr 16, 2008 7:03:53 PM
-
SciFrog
- Rennteam VIP
-
- Loc: USA , United States
- Posts: 9870, Gallery
- Registered on: Nov 15, 2005
-
Reply to:
Carlos from Spain
Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer th
just to add my $0.02...tires make a HUGE difference, and while 10 seconds is a stretch, 5-7 seconds is not. For those who have used R compounds, the difference is SOO dramatic compared to even the best Michelin Sport tires on the market. The speed one can carry through a corner is breathtaking in comparison. If you put a set of Cups on a CGT, you would probably see several second improvement to say the least. Also R compounds work well with a lot of heat in them, when street tires easily overheat after a few laps.
I do find it interesting that more OEM's are starting to put R like compounds on their street cars. It certainely makes things interesting, but more difficult to compare on an apples to apples basis. For example, I can take a car with almost 100 less hp than a close competitor, put a set of hardcore track compounds and be tearing up cars that are way out of it's league.
I do find it interesting that more OEM's are starting to put R like compounds on their street cars. It certainely makes things interesting, but more difficult to compare on an apples to apples basis. For example, I can take a car with almost 100 less hp than a close competitor, put a set of hardcore track compounds and be tearing up cars that are way out of it's league.
Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer th
Quote:
SciFrog said:Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
FWIW: just the difference from highperformance street tires vs semi-slics in the Nring already acount for 8 seconds aprox.
Only 2s for the 997TT according to SA... Don't know why...
You got it wrong. SA first tested Yellow 997TT and it achived 7.54min with Cups. Few months later they tested new example of 997TT(White) and it achived 7.52min also with Cups. White car had little bit different PASM setup(MY08)...
They did not measure 997TT with normal Michelin Pilot PS2 on the Ring. Just on Hockenheim. Difference between PS2 and CUP on Hockenheim is around 1.8s...
Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer th
Quote:
KresoF1 said:Quote:
SciFrog said:Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
FWIW: just the difference from highperformance street tires vs semi-slics in the Nring already acount for 8 seconds aprox.
Only 2s for the 997TT according to SA... Don't know why...
You got it wrong. SA first tested Yellow 997TT and it achived 7.54min with Cups. Few months later they tested new example of 997TT(White) and it achived 7.52min also with Cups. White car had little bit different PASM setup(MY08)...
They did not measure 997TT with normal Michelin Pilot PS2 on the Ring. Just on Hockenheim. Difference between PS2 and CUP on Hockenheim is around 1.8s...
Yup.
997TT MPSC: 7:42 (factory) / 7:54 (Sport Auto)
997TT PS2: 7:49 (factory) / 7:5x (8:xx?
) (Sport Auto)
Apr 16, 2008 7:46:47 PM
-
Carlos from Spain
- Rennteam Moderator
-
- Loc: Spain. , Spain
- Posts: 21148, Gallery
- Registered on: Feb 9, 2003
- Reply to: KresoF1
Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer th
Quote:
KresoF1 said:They did not measure 997TT with normal Michelin Pilot PS2 on the Ring. Just on Hockenheim. Difference between PS2 and CUP on Hockenheim is around 1.8s...
How long is HH? 4.5Km? by a rule of three that would equate to 8.3 seconds difference in the 20.8Km Nring. I know you can't extrapolate it since the tracks are different, but it gives a rough idea
Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer th
Quote:
Italo said:Quote:
nberry said:Quote:
Italo said:Quote:
easy_rider911 said:Quote:
nberry said:
... do you really believe tires would make a difference...
Hehe. From the guy whose signature reads "You will never win a race without understanding how tires work"
Sorry Nick - couldn't resist
nice one easy, what a clown
If you believe tires will compensate over 10 seconds in performance your the clown.
Nick, so why do they use different tyres during a grand prix
This is becoming comical. I believe I know tires as well as most. I have represented several tire manufacturers.
Tires do make a big difference and I have never stated otherwise. My tag line confirms my belief.
However, when I posed the question as to how the GT2 can have the same Ring time as the CGT you all attribute it to the tires. Am I to understand the the 996GT2 with the new tires will also do the Ring in 7.32?
What most of you are missing is that though tires play a role in increased performance they will not make up the difference between TRACK cars where one has almost 100hp and is lighter. If you believe otherwise then you really do not understand tire functions.
Just so you get some idea as to the idiocy of your claim. when Porsche decided to build the CGT guess what part of the car they first developed. If you guessed the tires, you are right. So those of you that believe that the CGT was equipped with inferior tires just do not understand.
Finally, as I have asked time and time again, if tires are the difference between the CGT and Gt2 then why is not the GT-R given the same advantage as a result of technology and not fraud.
Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer th
Quote:
nberry said:
My tag line confirms my belief.
Geez, so far I thought it was all about knowledge. Nick, do you want a serious answer to this question? Since you declare to be so knowledgeable please explain the following:
How come the F430 Scuderia is equally fast as the all so mighty, powerful and performance-focussed Ferrari Enzo? This quote does not come from some - unknown to you - German magazine but directly from Ferrari PR.
If you do not intend to hold a serious discussion, please say so at the beginning of your topic. It will save us a lot of time.
Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer th
Quote:
Ferdie said:Quote:
nberry said:
My tag line confirms my belief.
Geez, so far I thought it was all about knowledge. Nick, do you want a serious answer to this question? Since you declare to be so knowledgeable please explain the following:
How come the F430 Scuderia is equally fast as the all so mighty, powerful and performance-focussed Ferrari Enzo? This quote does not come from some - unknown to you - German magazine but directly from Ferrari PR.
If you do not intend to hold a serious discussion, please say so at the beginning of your topic. It will save us a lot of time.
Just like the GT-R, the Scud is the latest in performance technology. That is why on a relatively short track its performance is on par with a race car with over 100hp. Ferdie, you need to begin to think more and not be emotional. Your arguments are becoming more strident with little substance.
Apr 16, 2008 9:41:56 PM
- lambornima
- Junior
-
- Loc: Toronto Canada
- Posts: 130, Gallery
- Registered on: May 13, 2007
- Reply to: nberry
Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer th
Quote:
nberry said:
Ferdie, as much as many of you like to huff and puff about tires being the difference, my point remains irrefutable. Which is most Porschephiles have criticised the GT-R as a fraud because one cannot defy physics i.e. you cannot have the same hp and weigh more and be faster than another car with same hp but is lighter.
Yet, you all then jump on the GT2 bandwagon and claim just that, you can defy physics with technology (so long as it is done by Porsche engineers?
Finally FWIW, my mirror just smiles and shouts "YES".
but all the people were right! the GTR isnt matching the 997TT with equal weight and more mass. it has more mass, but it has also been dynoed to 430-460 awhp and with at least 20% drivetrain losses, means 550+ hp. thats why it traps the same speed as a 997TT with more weight.
I also have the scan of the SportAuto CGT test, and when they tested the CGT the surface temprature was 8 degrees celcius compared to the GT2's 26 degrees celcius. this is especially important when the CGT needs all the traction is can get.
Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer th
"Just so you get some idea as to the idiocy of your claim. when Porsche decided to build the CGT guess what part of the car they first developed. If you guessed the tires, you are right. So those of you that believe that the CGT was equipped with inferior tires just do not understand."
Well considering the tires developed were the Michelin PS2s, I would say you are the one who does not seem to understand. PS2s are street tires and therefore inferior on the track compared to the Cups fitted to the GT2. I find that your argument that the 996 GT2 should be able to achieve 7:32 with cups is ridiculous. The 996GT2 is older, less powerful, and about the same wieght as the 997 so Im not sure why you brought that up
Well considering the tires developed were the Michelin PS2s, I would say you are the one who does not seem to understand. PS2s are street tires and therefore inferior on the track compared to the Cups fitted to the GT2. I find that your argument that the 996 GT2 should be able to achieve 7:32 with cups is ridiculous. The 996GT2 is older, less powerful, and about the same wieght as the 997 so Im not sure why you brought that up
Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer th
Quote:
nberry said:
Just like the GT-R, the Scud is the latest in performance technology. That is why on a relatively short track its performance is on par with a race car with over 100hp. Ferdie, you need to begin to think more and not be emotional. Your arguments are becoming more strident with little substance.
I see! The GT2 is not state of the art?
I highly doubt my arguments are of diminishing substance, however your arguments have never been and, further more, not even been intended to be of valuable contribution. Show me your knowledge about the things you brag. You are scratching the surface, nothing more. Simple as that.
To show you how simplified your view has been so far, I return to the subject:
The GT2 has much better traction of the line, due to launch control and much more weight on the rear axle. The CGT is still faster to 200 kph, and should be about even (or even slower) to 300 kph. If you would seriously understand how much effort is needed to drive the CGT at the limit on the Nordschleife, you would understand where "almost" similiar laptimes come from. There is even more potential in the CGT, if you would look for an press-focussed laptime as has been done for the GT2 and GT-R the car would have achieved a 7:2x min. laptime. Anyways, what for? Ferrari did not even allow to use the Enzo on the Ring. That circuit is of a much different topography than modern circuits where the difference between GT2 and CGT would be bigger.
It does not hold up as a valid example if you want to provide reasons for the performance similiarity between TT and GT-R. That is a totally different subject but I doubt that is of any importance for you. The sad thing is, I do believe all the time and effort we put into these discussions are without any value to you.
Apr 16, 2008 10:24:53 PM
- Crash
- Rennteam VIP
-
- Loc: Never been to , Antarctica
- Posts: 8287, Gallery
- Registered on: Oct 17, 2002
- Reply to: Atzporsche
Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer th
Nick, just on the off-chance that you are really trying to understand what other people are trying to get across to you and not just mindlessly provoking unproductive arguments, here are some answers to your questions:
The improved handling properties of a new generation of tires, the so-called Ultra High Performance (UHP) tires, have been given credit for a lot - but by no means all - of the 997 GT2's improvement of performance over the 996 GT2.
Other major factors cited by Walter Röhrl in magazine reports were the extremely predictable handling of the 997 GT2, the like of which he had not experienced in any other car before, the high levels of torque and power, and the excellent throttle response.
The 997 GT2 benefitted from six years of evolution on several fronts, not just with regard to tires. Nobody in his right mind would claim that just putting a set of UHP tires on a 996 GT2 would get its lap times down to 997 GT2 levels. Your post was the first one I've read which suggested that.
When Porsche developed the CGT, tire manufacturers had not yet developed UHP tires. Tires which may have been state-of-the-art around 2002 would not necessarily be state-of-the-art in 2008. Technology moves on. You need to try harder to keep up, Nick.
The only tire manufacturers I know of who offer the UHP technology so far are Michelin and Pirelli. I don't remember offhand who supplies the tires for the GTR. Maybe Nissan's tire supplier is not yet as far up this particular learning curve as other manufacturers are, maybe it is even further?
Quote:
nberry said:
However, when I posed the question as to how the GT2 can have the same Ring time as the CGT you all attribute it to the tires. Am I to understand the the 996GT2 with the new tires will also do the Ring in 7.32?
The improved handling properties of a new generation of tires, the so-called Ultra High Performance (UHP) tires, have been given credit for a lot - but by no means all - of the 997 GT2's improvement of performance over the 996 GT2.
Other major factors cited by Walter Röhrl in magazine reports were the extremely predictable handling of the 997 GT2, the like of which he had not experienced in any other car before, the high levels of torque and power, and the excellent throttle response.
The 997 GT2 benefitted from six years of evolution on several fronts, not just with regard to tires. Nobody in his right mind would claim that just putting a set of UHP tires on a 996 GT2 would get its lap times down to 997 GT2 levels. Your post was the first one I've read which suggested that.
Quote:
nberry said:
Just so you get some idea as to the idiocy of your claim. when Porsche decided to build the CGT guess what part of the car they first developed. If you guessed the tires, you are right. So those of you that believe that the CGT was equipped with inferior tires just do not understand.
When Porsche developed the CGT, tire manufacturers had not yet developed UHP tires. Tires which may have been state-of-the-art around 2002 would not necessarily be state-of-the-art in 2008. Technology moves on. You need to try harder to keep up, Nick.
Quote:
nberry said:
Finally, as I have asked time and time again, if tires are the difference between the CGT and Gt2 then why is not the GT-R given the same advantage as a result of technology and not fraud.
The only tire manufacturers I know of who offer the UHP technology so far are Michelin and Pirelli. I don't remember offhand who supplies the tires for the GTR. Maybe Nissan's tire supplier is not yet as far up this particular learning curve as other manufacturers are, maybe it is even further?
Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer th
Quote:
nberry said:
Ferdie, you need to begin to think more and not be emotional. Your arguments are becoming more strident with little substance.
Nick, I have also noticed that Ferdie's posts are getting a little more strident. That can happen to anyone who falls into the trap of taking your posts seriously.
But for you of all people to accuse him of writing posts with little substance is so hilariously funny!
If you didn't already spend all your spare time on rennteam I'd ask you if you moonlighted as a stand-up comic.
Forum
About Rennteam | Help | Terms of use | Privacy Policy | Support | Contact | Imprint | Archive
Powered by
Community
and
