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    Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

    Quote:
    silvershadow said:

    ...

    Do you remember sergei bubka? He was increasing the world record of pole vault just by 1cm at time, to make the most amount of money possible out of it.

    ...




    Exactly what Porsche is doing innit? Except they aren't breaking any records, only their own artificially imposed "milestones".

    Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

    Quote:
    Spyderidol said:
    Sure they don't give s**t if the F430GT won it's class in the ALMS. But sure enough that information will filter down to them (in the fullness of time) if they keep winning long enough.
    Also - their opinions are formed by others that do give a s**t (they're called "opinion leaders")


    What you say is valid in the medium to long term. Stagnation kills any enterprise. However, it is unfair to expect Porsche or any other company to come up with a solution to a competitor's product within a short time. The next Porsche will be better than the next whatever, until they come up with something new etc. etc. It is a never ending story. In recent years we've had the acclaimed GT3s the 996 Turbo the Boxster which were above the competition in their class. Don't panic and don't feel that your "team" is not always winning.
    Motorsport is another issue. Given unlimited funds it's good to win everything every weekend but realities dictate differently. Also although I am a racing fan I don't overestimate the impact of racing results; the win sunday sell monday applies to very few people. Lamborghini is rerceived as maker of super sports cars although they have never won a race. Or Lancia (remember them?) won just about everything but nobody wants to know. How many Audi TDI drivers know about ALMS and endurance racing.
    Having said that, Porsche with their limited outlay manage to win a few majors every season and manage to maintain their racing connection. 24h races in LM, NBR,Spa, Dubai, 12h Sebring,ALMS Spyders,etc. when even giants haven't managed to win an F1 race yet.

    Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

    Quote:
    Spyderidol said:
    Just look at how Audi's image has been transformed by winning over and over again (and in spite of not having any real competition)in Sportcar racing.


    It seems that they started losing to Peugeot! Prestigious Audi being beaten by lowly Peugeot! A downside of too much reliance on Motorsport image. If I had a Ferrari I would be offended if "my Team" lost the title twice to Renault (of Clio and the Trafic van fame).

    Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

    Quote:
    reginso said:
    To be fair no one expects a company to respond to competition within weeks or months and thus always be on top.
    Also most of this discussion about NBR times and tracking characteristics arises in the press and internet forums among car enthusiasts that constitute a fraction of the car buying public. The newer cars like the R8 or the GT-R for example always get the limelight and many journalists have to write good things about them to stay in business. They also have to write that it is better than Porsche or whoever is considered the pinacle of its class, because if they didn't it wouldn't be news. So many things become distorted and opinions are formulated which don't concern the average buyer who doesn't read tests and doesn't visit rennteam.com.
    The vast majority buy cars based on image, looks and gadgets. How many Ferraris do you see on a normal rainy day on a motorway driven to determine the perfect line? I am sure very few compared to what you see outside clubs and casinos. These people don't give a s**t if the F430GT won its class in the ALMS. At the most they've heard of Schumacher. Real car fans are important to manufacturers but they are not their bread and butter and rightly or wrongly thay don't pay too much attention to them.



    Completely agree with you.
    It was time to remember how the news media and consumer behavior is working.

    Example: If people want to buy a fine watch (let's say an less expensive Omega Speedmaster Chrono model, ~1700 EUR) , do they compare it with a SEIKO model (~500 EUR), even if the Seiko is a few secondes more accurate within a month?

    Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

    Quote:
    reginos said:
    Quote:
    Spyderidol said:
    Sure they don't give s**t if the F430GT won it's class in the ALMS. But sure enough that information will filter down to them (in the fullness of time) if they keep winning long enough.
    Also - their opinions are formed by others that do give a s**t (they're called "opinion leaders")


    What you say is valid in the medium to long term. Stagnation kills any enterprise. However, it is unfair to expect Porsche or any other company to come up with a solution to a competitor's product within a short time. The next Porsche will be better than the next whatever, until they come up with something new etc. etc. It is a never ending story. In recent years we've had the acclaimed GT3s the 996 Turbo the Boxster which were above the competition in their class. Don't panic and don't feel that your "team" is not always winning.
    Motorsport is another issue. Given unlimited funds it's good to win everything every weekend but realities dictate differently. Also although I am a racing fan I don't overestimate the impact of racing results; the win sunday sell monday applies to very few people. Lamborghini is rerceived as maker of super sports cars although they have never won a race. Or Lancia (remember them?) won just about everything but nobody wants to know. How many Audi TDI drivers know about ALMS and endurance racing.
    Having said that, Porsche with their limited outlay manage to win a few majors every season and manage to maintain their racing connection. 24h races in LM, NBR,Spa, Dubai, 12h Sebring,ALMS Spyders,etc. when even giants haven't managed to win an F1 race yet.



    You and I agree in general , however Porsche's racing heritage is fundamental to its image.

    Lancia and others have won a few things but not as consistently, and for the length of time that Porsche has.
    The 911 (in its various forms) is the car that has won the most races over any other.

    Porsche has won the Le Mans more often than any other make.
    They have won in F1 (with the Maclaren TAG Porsche.
    They were so dominant in old CAN-AM series that they were effectively "outlawed" by a change in rules.
    They have won the Monte Carlo Rally and the Paris Dakar.
    They are the only car to beat the Audi's heavily favored diesel LMP1 car in the ALMS...and with a LMP2 car.
    They are also largely responsible for the new upsurge in interest in the LMP2 class.

    A company with this kind of racing heritage, cannot afford to let it disintegrate into faded memories, at the risk of just becoming "another" sportscar manufacturer.

    Again, and as I have often stated here on this forum, it's the perceived lack of longterm vision (and strategy) of WW's new all time profit conquering Porsche AG that makes me very nervous.

    I see an effort (and rightly so) to reduce company's reliance on the 911 , but it's done by producing SUV's and 4 door family saloons.

    I don't see a movement to introduce a mid-engined V8 road car that can be homologated to snatch back the GT title (and thus guarantee that the Porsche brand remains for ever on the top step of the podium in that class)

    I don't see Porsche exerting its considerable influence (as it now owns Audi)on the ACO to balance the very pro-diesel rules so as to give the gasoline powered cars as much of a chance at winning Le Mans as the diesels.

    I don't see Porsche putting pressure on the Grand Am organizers to form a different class for stage2 cars, instead of letting them compete (unfairly) with the normal production cars , of which the GT3's are.

    The perception is that its all about how much money they can make now and that they'll think about tomorrow when it comes.

    Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

    Quote:
    Spyderidol said:
    Quote:
    reginos said:
    Quote:
    Spyderidol said:
    Sure they don't give s**t if the F430GT won it's class in the ALMS. But sure enough that information will filter down to them (in the fullness of time) if they keep winning long enough.
    Also - their opinions are formed by others that do give a s**t (they're called "opinion leaders")


    What you say is valid in the medium to long term. Stagnation kills any enterprise. However, it is unfair to expect Porsche or any other company to come up with a solution to a competitor's product within a short time. The next Porsche will be better than the next whatever, until they come up with something new etc. etc. It is a never ending story. In recent years we've had the acclaimed GT3s the 996 Turbo the Boxster which were above the competition in their class. Don't panic and don't feel that your "team" is not always winning.
    Motorsport is another issue. Given unlimited funds it's good to win everything every weekend but realities dictate differently. Also although I am a racing fan I don't overestimate the impact of racing results; the win sunday sell monday applies to very few people. Lamborghini is rerceived as maker of super sports cars although they have never won a race. Or Lancia (remember them?) won just about everything but nobody wants to know. How many Audi TDI drivers know about ALMS and endurance racing.
    Having said that, Porsche with their limited outlay manage to win a few majors every season and manage to maintain their racing connection. 24h races in LM, NBR,Spa, Dubai, 12h Sebring,ALMS Spyders,etc. when even giants haven't managed to win an F1 race yet.



    You and I agree in general , however Porsche's racing heritage is fundamental to its image.

    Lancia and others have won a few things but not as consistently, and for the length of time that Porsche has.
    The 911 (in its various forms) is the car that has won the most races over any other.

    Porsche has won the Le Mans more often than any other make.
    They have won in F1 (with the Maclaren TAG Porsche.
    They were so dominant in old CAN-AM series that they were effectively "outlawed" by a change in rules.
    They have won the Monte Carlo Rally and the Paris Dakar.
    They are the only car to beat the Audi's heavily favored diesel LMP1 car in the ALMS...and with a LMP2 car.
    They are also largely responsible for the new upsurge in interest in the LMP2 class.

    A company with this kind of racing heritage, cannot afford to let it disintegrate into faded memories, at the risk of just becoming "another" sportscar manufacturer.

    Again, and as I have often stated here on this forum, it's the perceived lack of longterm vision (and strategy) of WW's new all time profit conquering Porsche AG that makes me very nervous.

    I see an effort (and rightly so) to reduce company's reliance on the 911 , but it's done by producing SUV's and 4 door family saloons.

    I don't see a movement to introduce a mid-engined V8 road car that can be homologated to snatch back the GT title (and thus guarantee that the Porsche brand remains for ever on the top step of the podium in that class)

    I don't see Porsche exerting its considerable influence (as it now owns Audi)on the ACO to balance the very pro-diesel rules so as to give the gasoline powered cars as much of a chance at winning Le Mans as the diesels.

    I don't see Porsche putting pressure on the Grand Am organizers to form a different class for stage2 cars, instead of letting them compete (unfairly) with the normal production cars , of which the GT3's are.

    The perception is that its all about how much money they can make now and that they'll think about tomorrow when it comes.


    I enjoyed reading your analysis and shows your knowledge of all the matters you raise. In an ideal world all the above would have been achievable.
    However, Porsche now face many problems threatening their own long term existence despite the huge accumulation of cash under WW.
    The EU CO2 penalties and some similar measures in the US will apply near lethal blows to Porsche unless they complete successfully the VW deal and average their emissions with those of the Polos and the Skodas. In this area they face the hostility of Herr Osteroh the VW Union leader and even the German Minister of Labour (a Frau) who is trying to introduce a new VW law that limits Porsche's potential influence on VW decisions. All these problems pile up on top of world economic slowdown and top oil prices. If you have to deal with all these issues then entering the RS Spyder and the RSRs in competition is an achievement in itself and you can be excused for not winning every time out. On the contrary a company like Ferrari for example is cushioned under FIAT and is considered a national treasure by Italian politicians (and the Pope!) who would never contemplate introducing a Law that would affect them adversely. So they are free to produce their very focused sports cars and enjoy their racing on weekends.

    Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

    You're right of course, but it hurts me so to see this.

    Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

    Quote:
    reginos said:
    In this area they face the hostility of Herr Osteroh the VW Union leader and even the German Minister of Labour (a Frau) who is trying to introduce a new VW law that limits Porsche's potential influence on VW decisions.



    These are 'only' political battlefields (BTW: the mentioned woman is the justice secretary). I see no reason why this should influence the 911 product strategy...

    Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

    Quote:
    Moogle said:
    I was once like most of you...

    Loved Porsche, thought they could do nothing wrong. Thought I would be buying 911s for a long time and cayennes to tow my 911 to the track.

    Got the Boxster S, Turbo S, GT3/etc.

    But then as cheshire porsche said, the brand is becoming so complacent and absorbed in their own 'legend' that they are really failing to innovate or create something new.

    I am not sure who out there feels that 40 variants of the 911 is the right lineup... Take that down to 10-20 and give us a 200-250k mid engine supercar, less useless special editions and more emotion!

    On top of that, when they do produce a gem such as the GT3RS, the dealers don't respect their long term, loyal clients, and sell the car at a high markup to speculators or poseurs.

    How long does it take for them to integrate the ipod? Waiting since 2003 (MOST BUS introduction)...

    That is just one example of something easy that many people want and Porsche does not listen, this sort of lacklustre attitude towards what the client wants extends from their road car development/marketing department all the way to motorsports.

    Where does it go after you go through a handful of different yet very similar 911s? Right now its Aston for me and Scifrog and others like us. GT-R for chesire...etc/etc/etc.

    The legitimate competitors for the 911 are growing and if you current Porsche owners still feel that you stand on some sort of unassailable podium established by Porsche's history, think again.

    They used to be on the cutting edge, but they are now years behind in tech. DSG? Direct injection? Volkswagens had that 3 years ago! What is Porsche doing? Making the Cayman Porsche Design Edition (tempting to know there will be two design editions, oh my!).

    Stop giving us FILLER, no one asked for it. They are flooding the marketplace with a half-hearted product and then making even more half-hearted special editions when sales slump slightly. You don't need to lie to customers with special editions named after the RS60/550/etc.

    Great products sell themselves, but for various reasons. The cognescenti are now realizing that Porsche is used to be a "great product moving itself" now it is a "pretty good product selling due to great marketing".

    This is the dark land we [Porsche] are in now... where the consumer is cheated, purists disenchanted, and poseurs born.



    Couldn't have said it better.

    I would just add Porsche has been focusing too much on Cayenne and Panamera, both likely best in their segment, whereas they dropped the ball on the 991/Boxster line by not bringing good technological advances (all TT owners could have done without the PTM), keeping HP a TAD low and not trying to reduce weight, also the list of options on the 911 is ridiculous, in the US, most 911 have at least $10k in options.

    To make things worse, the good 911 they produced (GTx) where limited in production!

    And now there are talk about dropping the dry sump from the TT FL...

    For me and many others, the magic of the 911 is gone. I will probably keep buying Cayenne and/or Panamera, but not because they make you dream, just because they are good cars.

    Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

    Quote:
    Moogle said:
    I was once like most of you...

    Loved Porsche, thought they could do nothing wrong. Thought I would be buying 911s for a long time and cayennes to tow my 911 to the track.

    Got the Boxster S, Turbo S, GT3/etc.

    But then as cheshire porsche said, the brand is becoming so complacent and absorbed in their own 'legend' that they are really failing to innovate or create something new.

    I am not sure who out there feels that 40 variants of the 911 is the right lineup... Take that down to 10-20 and give us a 200-250k mid engine supercar, less useless special editions and more emotion!

    On top of that, when they do produce a gem such as the GT3RS, the dealers don't respect their long term, loyal clients, and sell the car at a high markup to speculators or poseurs.

    How long does it take for them to integrate the ipod? Waiting since 2003 (MOST BUS introduction)...

    That is just one example of something easy that many people want and Porsche does not listen, this sort of lacklustre attitude towards what the client wants extends from their road car development/marketing department all the way to motorsports.

    Where does it go after you go through a handful of different yet very similar 911s? Right now its Aston for me and Scifrog and others like us. GT-R for chesire...etc/etc/etc.

    The legitimate competitors for the 911 are growing and if you current Porsche owners still feel that you stand on some sort of unassailable podium established by Porsche's history, think again.

    They used to be on the cutting edge, but they are now years behind in tech. DSG? Direct injection? Volkswagens had that 3 years ago! What is Porsche doing? Making the Cayman Porsche Design Edition (tempting to know there will be two design editions, oh my!).

    Stop giving us FILLER, no one asked for it. They are flooding the marketplace with a half-hearted product and then making even more half-hearted special editions when sales slump slightly. You don't need to lie to customers with special editions named after the RS60/550/etc.

    Great products sell themselves, but for various reasons. The cognescenti are now realizing that Porsche is used to be a "great product moving itself" now it is a "pretty good product selling due to great marketing".

    This is the dark land we [Porsche] are in now... where the consumer is cheated, purists disenchanted, and poseurs born.



    Superb post

    Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:
    Quote:
    Moogle said:
    I was once like most of you...

    ...(edited)




    Superb post



    +1

    Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

    Quote:
    jesse said:
    Quote:
    reginos said:
    In this area they face the hostility of Herr Osteroh the VW Union leader and even the German Minister of Labour (a Frau) who is trying to introduce a new VW law that limits Porsche's potential influence on VW decisions.



    These are 'only' political battlefields (BTW: the mentioned woman is the justice secretary). I see no reason why this should influence the 911 product strategy...


    Porsche made good money under WW, but they are far from stable and secure because of the EU CO2 regulation that will come into effect and the volatility of being a limited, niche (well semi-niche) manufacturer in a difficult economic environment . They need to finalise asap the VW deal, put the CO2 threat behind them and start to plan a life as a focused sports car manufacturer without the need to diversify into SUVs and Super Saloons for survival. Unfortunately however, the Labour Unions and the German government (Justice Minister, Frau Brigitte Zypries, I found her name) are not helpful at all and put obstacles on the way. Elsewhere, a brand like Porsche would be cherished by politicians and labour alike. In Germany it seems that there is fierce opposition. Could it be "Schadefreude"?

    Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

    Tom has a knack for getting to the heart of the matter. Unfortunately at the end of the day, the Porsche "pull" is so strong that people will continue to buy it regardless of its degradation in performance. value and originality.

    Here is a recent note from EVO regarding the Corvette. Click the link for sales in Europe.

    http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/217833/chevrolet_corvette.html

    Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Tom has a knack for getting to the heart of the matter. Unfortunately at the end of the day, the Porsche "pull" is so strong that people will continue to buy it regardless of its degradation in performance. value and originality.

    Here is a recent note from EVO regarding the Corvette. Click the link for sales in Europe.

    http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/217833/chevrolet_corvette.html


    American cars are not taken seriously in Europe. I don't know if this is justified or not because I've never driven an American car except a Mercedes ML . Perhaps it is the bad legacy of the Detroit dinosaurs of not so long ago.

    Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

    Quote:
    Moogle said:

    Where does it go after you go through a handful of different yet very similar 911s? Right now its Aston for me and Scifrog and others like us. GT-R for chesire...etc/etc/etc.

    The legitimate competitors for the 911 are growing and if you current Porsche owners still feel that you stand on some sort of unassailable podium established by Porsche's history, think again.

    They used to be on the cutting edge, but they are now years behind in tech. DSG? Direct injection? Volkswagens had that 3 years ago! What is Porsche doing? Making the Cayman Porsche Design Edition (tempting to know there will be two design editions, oh my!).

    Stop giving us FILLER, no one asked for it. They are flooding the marketplace with a half-hearted product and then making even more half-hearted special editions when sales slump slightly. You don't need to lie to customers with special editions named after the RS60/550/etc.





    Great post & happy birthday

    Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

    Quote:
    Moogle said:
    I was once like most of you...

    Loved Porsche, thought they could do nothing wrong. Thought I would be buying 911s for a long time and cayennes to tow my 911 to the track.

    Got the Boxster S, Turbo S, GT3/etc.

    But then as cheshire porsche said, the brand is becoming so complacent and absorbed in their own 'legend' that they are really failing to innovate or create something new.

    I am not sure who out there feels that 40 variants of the 911 is the right lineup... Take that down to 10-20 and give us a 200-250k mid engine supercar, less useless special editions and more emotion!

    On top of that, when they do produce a gem such as the GT3RS, the dealers don't respect their long term, loyal clients, and sell the car at a high markup to speculators or poseurs.

    How long does it take for them to integrate the ipod? Waiting since 2003 (MOST BUS introduction)...

    That is just one example of something easy that many people want and Porsche does not listen, this sort of lacklustre attitude towards what the client wants extends from their road car development/marketing department all the way to motorsports.

    Where does it go after you go through a handful of different yet very similar 911s? Right now its Aston for me and Scifrog and others like us. GT-R for chesire...etc/etc/etc.

    The legitimate competitors for the 911 are growing and if you current Porsche owners still feel that you stand on some sort of unassailable podium established by Porsche's history, think again.

    They used to be on the cutting edge, but they are now years behind in tech. DSG? Direct injection? Volkswagens had that 3 years ago! What is Porsche doing? Making the Cayman Porsche Design Edition (tempting to know there will be two design editions, oh my!).

    Stop giving us FILLER, no one asked for it. They are flooding the marketplace with a half-hearted product and then making even more half-hearted special editions when sales slump slightly. You don't need to lie to customers with special editions named after the RS60/550/etc.

    Great products sell themselves, but for various reasons. The cognescenti are now realizing that Porsche is used to be a "great product moving itself" now it is a "pretty good product selling due to great marketing".

    This is the dark land we [Porsche] are in now... where the consumer is cheated, purists disenchanted, and poseurs born.




    I agree! I said pretty much the same long ago when I sold my C4 and got a Vette, and have not looked back. I may buy another Porsche, but for that to happen the car better be significant, and I'm not talking doodads (iPod connection, etc.), but substance.

    Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

    Brief post before I enjoy the rest of my birthday, thanks to everyone for the kind words

    Porsche really needs to stop holding back innovation at the hands of marketing.

    In this age of serious competition for the 911 - for a company like Porsche that used to be heralded as a leading edge developer, the lack of moving forward can only be seen as a step backward.

    Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

    Back on the GTR performance, it looks like technology is finally paying off in performance. My guess is not just one major advance, but plenty of little ones that make the package more than the sum of its parts. Kudos to Nissan if they are not cheating. But basically it had to happen: computers making a car faster than old technology (unlike PTM...).

    Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

    Quote:
    SciFrog said:
    Kudos to Nissan if they are not cheating.





    BUT, they are...

    Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

    Then they should debunk it more, customer cars are being delivered, we should know soon if the power is right and if the car is really that fast...

    Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

    Costumer cars in USA are more powerfull then 480hp(crank). GT-R is producing at least 520hp(crank), maybe even 530-540hp... All dynos so far confirmed that figures.

    Question is why is Nissan lying about true hp?

    Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Costumer cars in USA are more powerfull then 480hp(crank). GT-R is producing at least 520hp(crank), maybe even 530-540hp... All dynos so far confirmed that figures.

    Question is why is Nissan lying about true hp?



    Certainly it helps to think that they aren't just lobbing horsepower at the challenge of beating Porsche.

    Also worth noting: Japanese manufacturers have always had a history of understating horsepower figures.

    Porsche had done the same thing with the 996 GT3. Cars were regularly producing 20-30 more than what was published.

    Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

    Quote:
    SciFrog said:
    Back on the GTR performance, it looks like technology is finally paying off in performance. My guess is not just one major advance, but plenty of little ones that make the package more than the sum of its parts. Kudos to Nissan if they are not cheating. But basically it had to happen: computers making a car faster than old technology (unlike PTM...).



    To me what's remarkable is that they are apparently producing 550HP out of a 3.8l V6, while PAG is making a lot of noise of variable vane turbos to produce perhaps less.

    Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Costumer cars in USA are more powerfull then 480hp(crank). GT-R is producing at least 520hp(crank), maybe even 530-540hp... All dynos so far confirmed that figures.

    Question is why is Nissan lying about true hp?



    MY fellow lawyer, I am afraid you are being myopic. Your digging around in the dirt to justify your bias for a German car. Get out of the hole you are digging look at the entire forest, and acknowledge what you know in your heart is true, NISSAN HAS OUT ENGINEERED THE FORMER ENGINEERING LEADER PORSCHE

    Just appreciate the wonderful achievement as have all the car magazines that have reviewed the GT-R. It is light years ahead the the base 911 models and certain substantially ahead of the TT, GT3 and GT3RS. I also believe it is ahead of my 430 but my saving grace is Ferrari is not only about performance as Porsche MUST be.

    If there is a stake in the heart of Porsche by the GT-R it is this; Porsche have always been about performance/value and that is why you buy it. Styling, resale value and originality are not its strong suit. No comes a car that beats it so bad that Porsche now looks like it has old prune which cannot find a toilet fast enough to relieve itself.

    Deal with it.

    Final point. To my knowledge, no one has independently confirmed that the GT-R is running at a higher hp level. There is a deference between hope and fact. As a lawyer you must deal with facts.

    Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

    Quote:
    ADias said:
    Quote:
    SciFrog said:
    Back on the GTR performance, it looks like technology is finally paying off in performance. My guess is not just one major advance, but plenty of little ones that make the package more than the sum of its parts. Kudos to Nissan if they are not cheating. But basically it had to happen: computers making a car faster than old technology (unlike PTM...).



    To me what's remarkable is that they are apparently producing 550HP out of a 3.8l V6, while PAG is making a lot of noise of variable vane turbos to produce perhaps less.



    Also remember when PAG announces they have made or introduced so many changes from one model to another doesn't necessarily mean technical advancements. For example, what my sales guy told me while ago, when 996 MKII was introduced PAG claimed it had so many technical changes for the better of course and one of them was number of threads in the wheel bolts which was reduced from like 30 turns to 28 turns. Something like this so ridiculous was a technical change.

    So sad Porsche has chosen this path. It could be becuase they've hired so many people from MB and BMW to make technical and marketing decisions .

    Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

    Quote:
    Ron (Houston) said:
    Quote:
    ADias said:
    Quote:
    SciFrog said:
    Back on the GTR performance, it looks like technology is finally paying off in performance. My guess is not just one major advance, but plenty of little ones that make the package more than the sum of its parts. Kudos to Nissan if they are not cheating. But basically it had to happen: computers making a car faster than old technology (unlike PTM...).



    To me what's remarkable is that they are apparently producing 550HP out of a 3.8l V6, while PAG is making a lot of noise of variable vane turbos to produce perhaps less.



    Also remember when PAG announces they have made or introduced so many changes from one model to another doesn't necessarily mean technical advancements. For example, what my sales guy told me while ago, when 996 MKII was introduced PAG claimed it had so many technical changes for the better of course and one of them was number of threads in the wheel bolts which was reduced from like 30 turns to 28 turns. Something like this so ridiculous was a technical change.

    So sad Porsche has chosen this path. It could be becuase they've hired so many people from MB and BMW to make technical and marketing decisions .



    As you state! What the sales guy didn't say is that WW ordered the wheel stud change strictly to save money - his money - not ours.

    You and I have moved on. Both of us love Porsches, and may come back to them in the future, but only if they become meaningful again.

    Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

    Autoweek finds GTR less satisfying than the IS-F


    Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

    Quote:


    Nissan Motor Co., Ltd.
    17-1, 6 chome, Chuou-ku, Ginza
    Tokyo Japan
    www.nissan.co.jp

    Dear Valued Nissan GT-R customers,

    Thank you very much for purchasing Nissan GT-R. We deeply apologize for the late delivery of the Nissan GT-R.

    The reason of the delay is due to the decrease in production of the Nissan GT-R model caused by the shortage of the special crutch for the transmission manufactured by the American maker.

    Nissan GT-R is featured in the magazine and Internet, and getting excellent reputation in the market. In order to produce remarkably smooth and fast pick-up high speed as well as the powerful resistance in driving, the special crutch is required with the guaranteed high level of precision and function, which are far different from those for standard continental cars. Unfortunately, the delivery shortage of 50 ~ 200 vehicles / month is caused by the limited capacity of the current manufacturer's production started since last year.

    Maintaining the standard of quality of function and trust to all the customers is the Nissan GT-R's the first priority. We guarantee the quality and precision in every production process with strict inspection. This is also the reason for the delay in delivery. There is absolutely no other factor of defect.

    In addition, the manufacturer is in the progress of expanding its production plant urgently. It is planned to start production in March or April. Once the new plant is opened, the production will be on schedule.

    We, again, would like to apologize for the inconvenience caused by the late delivery of the Nissan GT-R. We seek the customer's understanding about the situation.

    Thank you for continues support to Nissan GT-R at the moment and in the future.

    Sincerely yours,

    Nissan Motor Co., Ltd.
    2nd Project Group
    Chief Vehicle Engineer and
    Chief Product Specialist


    Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Costumer cars in USA are more powerfull then 480hp(crank). GT-R is producing at least 520hp(crank), maybe even 530-540hp... All dynos so far confirmed that figures.

    Question is why is Nissan lying about true hp?



    Final point. To my knowledge, no one has independently confirmed that the GT-R is running at a higher hp level. There is a deference between hope and fact. As a lawyer you must deal with facts.



    http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/112_0803_2009_nissan_gt_r_dyno_test

    Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

    No doubt these cars can be fast, but do they have souls?

     
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