Apr 9, 2008 9:13:05 PM
- bz888
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Re: Nissan GTR V-Spec lap times stun observers
Quote:
fritz said:
AUM, you are obviously very familiar with the set-up at the N'Ring, and know that the "start" and "finish" timing points are not at the same place. Any trackside bystanders would therefore not normally be able to time a lap without the slow "pit-lane" segment. Do you have any insight on or explanation for that?
Fritz - that is an excellent point. It also struck me as very coincidental that the laptime (7:25) was exactly the time that was mentioned as the "Goal" for the GT-R V-Spec before it ever arrived at the 'Ring...
Apr 9, 2008 9:22:47 PM
- fritz
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Re: Nissan GTR V-Spec lap times stun observers
Quote:
Porsche-Jeck said:Quote:
fritz said:
Not that that would stop people comparing them, of course. Apples and pears (or is it apples and oranges in English?) are our favorite fruit on rennteam.com.
LoL - it will become a whole fruit basket once good old HvS will retireAnd no, I'm not kidding - maybe Pierre can give a more professional view once he did the first VLN race this season. Meanwhile I'll ask some experienced fast buddies with 4 digit laps under their belt. I'll let you know what they think
Re the start and finish point: it's about 200m apart - so even an asthmatic bystander should be able to cover this distance within 7:30 minutes
Re first point: I would be interested in what you hear from your fast buddies. Thanks in advance for any info.
Re second point: I am familiar with the set-up. All cars have to slow right down for that 200m section, so bystanders could only get a half-way accurate lap time if they are actually standing in the pit-lane with a direct view of the two timing points. But Nissan generally does its testing when this area is closed to the public ..............
Re: Nissan GTR V-Spec lap times stun observers
Quote:
Grant said:Quote:
fritz said:
AUM, you are obviously very familiar with the set-up at the N'Ring, and know that the "start" and "finish" timing points are not at the same place. Any trackside bystanders would therefore not normally be able to time a lap without the slow "pit-lane" segment. Do you have any insight on or explanation for that?
Fritz - that is an excellent point. It also struck me as very coincidental that the laptime (7:25) was exactly the time that was mentioned as the "Goal" for the GT-R V-Spec before it ever arrived at the 'Ring...
Are you thinking what I'm thinking?
Re: Nissan GTR V-Spec lap times stun observers
Quote:
mv said:Quote:
Crash said:
The GT-R is slower on the Autobahn than all of its competition,
Competition with 2-4 times higher price tag ?
No I dont think the GT-R is the ultimate car, but it really is an amazing achivement for this sort of money.
Nissan itself compared the car to the Turbo, so don't defend it as being cheaper. The GT-R is a halo car, pure and simple. Just as expensive to engineer as the 997TT, but sold at dumping prices so as to undermine the european competition. No doubt about it, it's a great car and with an AWD system I would love to see used in the Turbo, but make no mistake, the car will be inferior to its european counterparts on the road (as well as the Z06, which I would take over this any day).
Re: Nissan GTR V-Spec lap times stun observers
Quote:
fritz said:Quote:
Grant said:Quote:
fritz said:
AUM, you are obviously very familiar with the set-up at the N'Ring, and know that the "start" and "finish" timing points are not at the same place. Any trackside bystanders would therefore not normally be able to time a lap without the slow "pit-lane" segment. Do you have any insight on or explanation for that?
Fritz - that is an excellent point. It also struck me as very coincidental that the laptime (7:25) was exactly the time that was mentioned as the "Goal" for the GT-R V-Spec before it ever arrived at the 'Ring...
Are you thinking what I'm thinking?
Certainly could be unreliable, but I guess it's also possible for observers to time the car while on cell phones (spotters at start and finish lines)...
Apr 9, 2008 9:57:08 PM
- Porsche-Jeck
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Re: Nissan GTR V-Spec lap times stun observers
Quote:
fritz said:
Re second point: I am familiar with the set-up. All cars have to slow right down for that 200m section, so bystanders could only get a half-way accurate lap time if they are actually standing in the pit-lane with a direct view of the two timing points. But Nissan generally does its testing when this area is closed to the public ..............
O.K. I understand what you mean, fritz. Actually it's not a typical pitlane situation at T 13 and I'm sure that some "spies" could get a glimpse even without access to the area closed to the public. But all this doesn't matter IMO because the claimed laptime is just the usual internet chat without any "scientific" evidence anyway
Re: Nissan GTR V-Spec lap times stun observers
Quote:
Crash said:Quote:
mv said:Quote:
Crash said:
The GT-R is slower on the Autobahn than all of its competition,
Competition with 2-4 times higher price tag ?
No I dont think the GT-R is the ultimate car, but it really is an amazing achivement for this sort of money.
Nissan itself compared the car to the Turbo, so don't defend it as being cheaper. The GT-R is a halo car, pure and simple.
Really funny.
Sorry, the price is something that can not be disrespected. But I get your point.
Whats more, the GTR is not a halo car, it is a base of a model line with more to come, just like in case of the 911. Pure and simple.
Re: Nissan GTR V-Spec lap times stun observers
I fully appreciate the German hubris given their love of Porsche. But haven't we reached a point where despite your deflated egos and collapse of your chest that time has come to stand up and shout Nissan kicked Porsche ass?
How much longer will you continue in this self delusion and deception that no matter what the car, driver and venue, Porsche will prevail. Damn it give it up! That ship has sailed. Jeez.
How much longer will you continue in this self delusion and deception that no matter what the car, driver and venue, Porsche will prevail. Damn it give it up! That ship has sailed. Jeez.
Re: Nissan GTR V-Spec lap times stun observers
Quote:
nberry said:
despite your deflated egos and collapse of your chest that time has come to stand up and shout Nissan kicked Porsche ass?
It sounds like all car manufactures should be doing this, according to you....and esp you with your mighty 430.
Re: Nissan GTR V-Spec lap times stun observers
Quote:
JP66 said:Quote:
nberry said:
despite your deflated egos and collapse of your chest that time has come to stand up and shout Nissan kicked Porsche ass?
It sounds like all car manufactures should be doing this, according to you....and esp you with your mighty 430.
I could not agree more. Ferrari has much to answer for considering the difference in price. Thankfully, Ferrari isn't only about performance.
Re: Nissan GTR V-Spec lap times stun observers
Quote:
Crash said:Quote:
Turbo Al said:Quote:
Grant said:Quote:
Turbo Al said:
One important question, since it's a PROTOTYPE: How much more HP does it have compared to the eventual V-Spec power rating? If alot more, then the time is MEANINGLESS.
Al - it wouldn't matter if the prototype has 600hp (instead of the advertised 550hp), because it would have 800hp by the time you got your hands on one
Yes, another reason the current prototype's lap time is meaningless.
I'm willing to bet that Al's GT-R could achieve the same N-ring time as this one - sideways!
Well, I'm sure that swapping out the stock turbo's for Garrett GT3582R's could be a first tuning step.
Apr 10, 2008 3:07:07 AM
- lambornima
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Apr 10, 2008 5:47:14 AM
- AUM
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Re: Nissan GTR V-Spec lap times stun observers
Quote:
lambornima said:
SA did a 7:50 with the GTR, not a 7:38-37. odds are, they wont get anything close to a 7:25 with this car either.
SA did two laps on a wet track. Not a test. HvS estimates 7.45 or better for the GTR. But (unlike Porsches) he is not used to this car and needs more laps to get the full potential from it.
It would be interesting to time HvS and Steve Miller in the same GTR on the same day. Factory drivers should be faster as they spend much more time probing the limits.
Re: Nissan GTR V-Spec lap times stun observers
Quote:
AUM said:Quote:
lambornima said:
SA did a 7:50 with the GTR, not a 7:38-37. odds are, they wont get anything close to a 7:25 with this car either.
SA did two laps on a wet track. Not a test. HvS estimates 7.45 or better for the GTR. But (unlike Porsches) he is not used to this car and needs more laps to get the full potential from it.
It would be interesting to time HvS and Steve Miller in the same GTR on the same day. Factory drivers should be faster as they spend much more time probing the limits.
In this particular regard I don't agree with you: for example Porsche claims a 7:43s for the 997TT while HvS achieved only 7:52 (with a recent production car). Thus, a gap ramains between the factory claim and the SportAuto time even in case of Porsche... Same applies to the GTR - thus, no need to worry
Also, I am not sure SportAuto wrote about a "wet track" and "a potential of 7:45"... I can only recall a 7:50 and a statement indicating that a slightly better time might also be achievable... Also, the test was NOT done with a production car. Never forget that
Re: Nissan GTR V-Spec lap times stun observers
Quote:
MKSGR said:In this particular regard I don't agree with you: for example Porsche claims a 7:43s for the 997TT while HvS achieved only 7:52 (with a recent production car). Thus, a gap ramains between the factory claim and the SportAuto time even in case of Porsche...
With the GT-R, I suspect that a mere mortal like HvS will be able to extract a laptime closer to the ideal than with the 911 (takes WR or similar to get 100% from that car - GT-R is much more user-friendly).
Apr 10, 2008 4:07:37 PM
- Porsche-Jeck
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Re: Nissan GTR V-Spec lap times stun observers
Quote:
fritz said:
Re first point: I would be interested in what you hear from your fast buddies. Thanks in advance for any info.
Well, here is an estimate from a VERY fast guy (though not a personal "buddy" of mine
): ALMS-pilot Marc Basseng thinks NoS has become around 4 sec. faster - though it's not clear to which kind of car he's refering. Usually he throws a 997 GT3 RSR around the track, in his post (just two weeks old) he mentions an inspection lap with his girlfriend's MB A-Class; LoL
I guess once the race season unfolds more infos like that (supported by evidence/lap times rather than estimates, even if it comes from a Pro) will become available.
http://20832.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6225&start=0
On the other hand it's worth mentioning, that the track still is not in the best condition at this time of the year to do record laps: it's still quite cold in the Eifel, the new patches of tarmac are not "run in" yet and there may be even some salt left from the Easter weekend.
Apr 10, 2008 4:38:20 PM
- fritz
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Re: Nissan GTR V-Spec lap times stun observers
Quote:
Porsche-Jeck said:Quote:
fritz said:
Re first point: I would be interested in what you hear from your fast buddies. Thanks in advance for any info.
Well, here is an estimate from a VERY fast guy (though not a personal "buddy" of mine
I guess once the race season unfolds more infos like that (supported by evidence/lap times rather than estimates, even if it comes from a Pro) will become available.
http://20832.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6225&start=0
On the other hand it's worth mentioning, that the track still is not in the best condition at this time of the year to do record laps: it's still quite cold in the Eifel, the new patches of tarmac are not "run in" yet and there may be even some salt left from the Easter weekend.
Thanks again, PJ.
4 seconds per lap, hmmmm?
Re: Nissan GTR V-Spec lap times stun observers
Quote:
Grant said:Quote:
MKSGR said:In this particular regard I don't agree with you: for example Porsche claims a 7:43s for the 997TT while HvS achieved only 7:52 (with a recent production car). Thus, a gap ramains between the factory claim and the SportAuto time even in case of Porsche...
With the GT-R, I suspect that a mere mortal like HvS will be able to extract a laptime closer to the ideal than with the 911 (takes WR or similar to get 100% from that car - GT-R is much more user-friendly).
Absolutely correct. Just look at the existing test reports by US and UK magazines...
Apr 10, 2008 6:00:13 PM
- Porsche-Jeck
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Re: Nissan GTR V-Spec lap times stun observers
Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
Grant said:Quote:
MKSGR said:In this particular regard I don't agree with you: for example Porsche claims a 7:43s for the 997TT while HvS achieved only 7:52 (with a recent production car). Thus, a gap ramains between the factory claim and the SportAuto time even in case of Porsche...
With the GT-R, I suspect that a mere mortal like HvS will be able to extract a laptime closer to the ideal than with the 911 (takes WR or similar to get 100% from that car - GT-R is much more user-friendly).
Absolutely correct. Just look at the existing test reports by US and UK magazines...
There is no doubt that a front engined car + FWD (or front-midengined like the marketing guys say
) feels more confidence inspiring at the limit (especially at NoS) compared to a mid-engined or rear-engined car (more tricky to drive at the limit). Which is more fun to drive (not neccessarily faster) is another story...
Apr 10, 2008 9:58:07 PM
- ADias
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Re: Nissan GTR V-Spec lap times stun observers
Quote:
Porsche-Jeck said:...or front-midengined like the marketing guys say
Why the smirk? A Corvette C6 or a F-599 are as much mid-engined cars as a F-430 or a Boxster or a CGT. In all cases, their engines are completely between the 2 axles. And all those cars have virtually a 50/50 weight distribution.
That, BTW is not the case with a GT-R. Its engine is over the front axle.
Re: Nissan GTR V-Spec lap times stun observers
Quote:
ADias said:Quote:
Porsche-Jeck said:...or front-midengined like the marketing guys say
Why the smirk? A Corvette C6 or a F-599 are as much mid-engined cars as a F-430 or a Boxster or a CGT. In all cases, their engines are completely between the 2 axles. And all those cars have virtually a 50/50 weight distribution.
That, BTW is not the case with a GT-R. Its engine is over the front axle.
Yes, BUT in front of the LPM and less able to transfer its weight quickly. Slightly rear-weighted is better for this, plus more weight over the rear wheels, assuming overall weight equal, means better traction. 50/50 weight distribution is NOT superior to rear weight bias in a four-wheel vehicle.
So a rear-midengine setup trumps a front-midengine setup, all else of course being equal.
Re: Nissan GTR V-Spec lap times stun observers
Quote:
ADias said:Why the smirk? A Corvette C6 or a F-599 are as much mid-engined cars as a F-430 or a Boxster or a CGT. In all cases, their engines are completely between the 2 axles. And all those cars have virtually a 50/50 weight distribution.
Although companies like BMW and Corvette will tell you 50/50 weight distribution is ideal, it is far from it. Under braking a car with 50/50 weight distribution becomes 80/20 and rear weight bias gives much more traction to the driven wheels with RWD. That's why engineers always choose Mid-Rear engine (with about 60% rear weight bias) when designing a racecar from a clean sheet...
Apr 11, 2008 9:29:44 PM
- 01Box06Z06
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Re: Nissan GTR V-Spec lap times stun observers
I've seen a test in Car and Driver and the first thing they did was put the GT-R on the chassis dyno. Yes, it certainly made 480hp AT THE REAR WHEELS. If you take a 15% driveline loss that is 530hp at the crank.
So if they added 70hp to this car then it's making very close to 600hp. So, does 3500lbs and 600hp equate to a 7:25 at the 'ring. Apparently to Nissan engineers it does.
I can't wait till some other source puts this car on the 'ring to get a definitive time. Based on tests I've seen so far, it's been about a second faster than the GT3. Yes, much shorter tracks.
So if they added 70hp to this car then it's making very close to 600hp. So, does 3500lbs and 600hp equate to a 7:25 at the 'ring. Apparently to Nissan engineers it does.
I can't wait till some other source puts this car on the 'ring to get a definitive time. Based on tests I've seen so far, it's been about a second faster than the GT3. Yes, much shorter tracks.
Apr 11, 2008 9:39:26 PM
- Grant
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Re: Nissan GTR V-Spec lap times stun observers
Quote:
01Box06Z06 said:
I've seen a test in Car and Driver and the first thing they did was put the GT-R on the chassis dyno. Yes, it certainly made 480hp AT THE REAR WHEELS. If you take a 15% driveline loss that is 530hp at the crank.
480hp at the wheels with 15% loss is 565hp (not 530), however AWD cars generally lose closer to 20% which would make it already 600hp.
Re: Nissan GTR V-Spec lap times stun observers
Quote:
Turbo Al said:Quote:
ADias said:Quote:
Porsche-Jeck said:...or front-midengined like the marketing guys say
Why the smirk? A Corvette C6 or a F-599 are as much mid-engined cars as a F-430 or a Boxster or a CGT. In all cases, their engines are completely between the 2 axles. And all those cars have virtually a 50/50 weight distribution.
That, BTW is not the case with a GT-R. Its engine is over the front axle.
Yes, BUT in front of the LPM and less able to transfer its weight quickly. Slightly rear-weighted is better for this, plus more weight over the rear wheels, assuming overall weight equal, means better traction. 50/50 weight distribution is NOT superior to rear weight bias in a four-wheel vehicle.
So a rear-midengine setup trumps a front-midengine setup, all else of course being equal.
But the GT-R does have a transaxle (integrated gearbox/differentíal unit) at the rear of the car, so it should have a good proportion of its weight over the rear wheels despite the front-mounted engine. But the polar moment of inertia will be higher than for a "conventional" midengine layout, due to front engine and rear transaxle effectively being further from car's centre of gravity.
This layout is also part of the explanation for the car's high weight since it unusually calls for two "propshafts", one from the engine back to the transaxle and another from the transaxle forward to the front axle. This will also surely mean higher transmission friction losses than a simpler layout, not to mention higher costs.
Re: Nissan GTR V-Spec lap times stun observers
Quote:
Grant said:Quote:
ADias said:Why the smirk? A Corvette C6 or a F-599 are as much mid-engined cars as a F-430 or a Boxster or a CGT. In all cases, their engines are completely between the 2 axles. And all those cars have virtually a 50/50 weight distribution.
Although companies like BMW and Corvette will tell you 50/50 weight distribution is ideal, it is far from it. Under braking a car with 50/50 weight distribution becomes 80/20 and rear weight bias gives much more traction to the driven wheels with RWD. That's why engineers always choose Mid-Rear engine (with about 60% rear weight bias) when designing a racecar from a clean sheet...
What Grant says is true. Further, Ferrari's 599 isn't 50/50. In fact it's 47/53 (F/R). This is quite an achievement for a large displacement front engined car, yet while it's better than 50/50, it's still not ideal.
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