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    Oct 18, 2002 3:49:17 AM

    ignacio
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    does anyone else here feel cheated by the excessive price of

    options for our cars? i do!

    to be asked to pay additional money for seat warmers, xenon lights, power seats, embossed logos on seats and colored wheel caps etc, etc,is absurd for such an expensive car as a 996.

    what is worse is that NONE of these options will increase our resale value. i would prefer to forego so many expensive options in favor of a bettter equipped standard car. am i wrong?

    the c4s is better in this regard but the c2 coupe and cab have an absurd number of options!

    Oct 18, 2002 4:22:51 AM

    FixedWing
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    Reply to: ignacio

    So order standard car.

    Add a few options and you might as well just buy the Turbo.

    That's what I did. I ordered the car with no options whatsoever save for a CD radio (which is now standard with the current model). Well there was one other option but we won't speak of that one...

    Never regretted it. The Turbo comes well equiped stock and my car is lighter than most.

    S.

    Oct 18, 2002 4:25:44 AM

    Grant
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    Reply to: ignacio

    Yes, many options are cheaper if added aftermarket

    Oct 18, 2002 5:15:15 AM

    ignacio
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    Reply to: FixedWing

    wing--i agree that the turbo and the c4s are well equipped

    but the c2 coupe and cab are not! the price of the options is absurd--often twice those of mercedes or bmw.

    such a policy leaves the nasty feeling of being taken advantage of in a car whose base price already allows porsche to earn the highest profit margin in the industry. the porsche company line that so many options are available to allow maximum individual customization, i find unconvincing and self serving.

    btw--don't you think the turbo should offer heated seats and lumbar support standard? it appears to me that adding such items piecemeal MUST increase the overall production costs for everyone.

    don't get me wrong--i love our cars. this pet peeve of mine is just a relatively minor annoyance that i think porsche would fix if enough of us complained.

    Oct 18, 2002 6:17:50 AM

    flippo jr
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    Reply to: ignacio

    Re: wing--i agree that the turbo and the c4s are well equipped

    My favorite : lighted footwells for $750. There's a hack on many Boxster sites where you can add them for $25 in parts.
    Second favorite : $1300 for a leather cover on the steering wheel airbag.
    Third favorite : $850 for a tiny bit of aluminum colored trim and a couple dollars more of glued on leather on the "alum/leather shifter/handbrake " option .
    I agree that Porsche should just add these "$10K" more of leather options as standard on all their 911s , charge $3K more for their cars and their net profit will be greater . MBZ, BMW, Aston Martin, Ferrari, Jaguar and Audi do just fine having basically a fully finished interior . I'm sure resale would be better , as I wouldn't be surprised if casual used 911 buyers walk away after sitting in a 996 with standard vinyl rear seats , no other leather options and realize most $25K cars these days come with more leather, nicer switchgear , etc.

    Oct 18, 2002 12:32:12 PM

    FixedWing
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    Reply to: ignacio

    Heated seats and lumbar???

    Going soft? Want your mother in law asking for rides all of the time??

    When was the last time your seat was so cold that you just couldn't stand it anymore?? I can live without precious heated seats ... and do!

    Actually, in my opinion the 996 does have a heat distribution problem. It is always cold in the back so your sholders are cold even when your front is warm. But heated seats won't fix this.

    S.

    Oct 18, 2002 12:37:54 PM

    FixedWing
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    Reply to: ignacio

    Guess my point was ...

    I guess what I was trying to say is that instead of buying a C2 loaded with crap, I personally would prefer to spend about the same money and get a Turbo stripped.

    I can put up with not carressing a carbon fibre shifter as I leave the world behind. Painful but I can do it.

    Also, I prefer the lighter weight of the car. Contrary to what SUV-RC (time for a nick change!) will tell you, weight does make a difference.

    And yes, I do think Porsche is taking advantage ... but it is a capitalist company is a capitalist world. So buy a Ferrari.

    S.

    Oct 19, 2002 2:45:21 AM

    ignacio
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    Reply to: FixedWing

    wing-i doubt Heated seats and lumbar will entice your mother

    in law to ride into a turbo unless she's both blind and deaf!

    the point is that porsche should include such minimal "options" in all 911's without price gouging on options. certainly both resale and buying price would be enhanced.

    we porsche aficionados put up with this bullshit because we love the driving experience and engineering of these cars. imo this does not excuse being nickeled and dimed for every overpriced option.

    ferrari isn't the real competition--it's bmw and mercedes who don't subject their customers to 10 page sheets of options. the new 6 series bmw will provide real competion to the 911- especially in the v10 m model. the mb sl 55 amg already provides competition vs the turbo without this unnecessary options nonsense.

    Oct 19, 2002 4:42:06 AM

    spider
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    Reply to: ignacio

    not me.... I don't buy options...

    The problem is not that there are too few options on the "base" car, but rather too many options included. I want a sports car... not a Lexus!

    Porsche should make it all optional... AC, radio, leather seat surfaces, rear seats, sunroof, power windows, etc, etc.

    I would rather that the base car be a real base sports car in order to save on weight, resulting in a quicker lighweight car. The bonus would be to eliminate things that could go wrong with the car. Along with the elimination of the Lexus-oid base equipment, there could be price reduction of 10K. Bring back the RS America.

    I don't want cupholders either.

    //// :) \\\\ spider

    Oct 19, 2002 4:44:08 AM

    Grant
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    Reply to: spider

    Yea, Spider! Power steering was a delete option on the RSA!

    Oct 19, 2002 4:53:36 AM

    spider
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    Reply to: Grant

    Grant... did you sell your C2 yet?....

    .. and what is that latest word on your GT3 order?

    Oct 19, 2002 1:33:21 PM

    Tpup
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    Reply to: ignacio

    Re: does anyone else here feel cheated by the excessive price of

    Yep, I do. I'm tired of Porsche telling everyone that they are the most profitable car company in the world, raping customers for options that should be standard, and lowering the overall quality of the car...

    When Porsche studied the Japanese manufacturing tecniques to cut their costs, it must have been someone other than Lexus...

    Roy

    Oct 19, 2002 1:59:46 PM

    FixedWing
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    Reply to: spider

    Agreed!

    Aircon should be an option. Sound proofing should be an option. That silly rear window wiper should be an option. Glass should be an option. Steering wheel should be an option.

    The Porsche is too fat. Take a look at my posting on the this:

    Ariel Atom

    Now thats what a sports car should look like.

    S.

    Oct 19, 2002 6:16:52 PM

    flippo jr
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    Reply to: FixedWing

    Porsche dealer councils will never allow customers to delete

    stuff like AC, soundproofing , etc as factory deletes unless the whole stripper model came as a complete package and badged Clubsport or RS ,etc. Can you imagine dealers trying to sell used a mish mosh of 996s that don't have AC or soundproofing or rear seats or radio/speakers sittting on their lots, long after these "weight delete" models hvae been thrashed by their more " sport intending" buyers? And what used buyer wants a model that was intended for thrashing or posing ?

    Oct 19, 2002 6:39:37 PM

    spider
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    Reply to: flippo jr

    Flippo.... have you checked the prices for RS Americas?

    The RS America cars certainly have retained their value.

    Porsche has proven that it can sell a car with less on it for considerably more than a better equipped Porsche model. Take the example of a GT2 vs a Turbo. A GT2 is essentially a 2WD version of the Turbo... with no sunroof, yet it sells for more...and is considered to be more exclusive.

    The badging of a lower priced stripper, with ROW suspension, as an RS America would be a good marketing resurection for Porsche.

    I agree that the cars are equipped such as they are to aid in sales. If you keep the cars all within the mediocrity one standard deviation from the mean, then the cars will be attractive enough to most of the people. The people who want cars more than one standard deviation from the mean can just eat it. People who don't want sunroofs, or that might desire a less popular color are frightened into getting something other than what they really wanted by salesmen who wave the spectre of "resale" under the customer's nose. That's why we have all those (non-offensive) boring, sunroof-equipped, black/blue interior, automatic transmission Porsches. These cars flood the lots when the lease runs out...and the leaser moves on to a grey Porsche with a black/blue interior...after fretting about getting lumbar supports.

    //// :cool: \\\\ spider

    Oct 19, 2002 6:52:30 PM

    RCA
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    Reply to: ignacio

    I do...

    ...but what can I do about it?

    My wife has to return back her leased SLK 230 next year. Out of curiousity I checked the price of a new 996 C2 Cab (she doesn't like the soft top but anyway). With some options here and some options there, I got a price tag which shocked me.

    The problem seems to be the fact, that Porsche marketing claims that not all customers want a Porsche full of options, especially because of weight and heritage.
    This is why they introduced the 996 C4S. They knew that customers buying it, won't be too concerned about weight and performance.
    What I really miss is a stripped down 996 with just the basic options like four wheels, steering wheel and a brake.

    But explain to a Boxster S customer why he would then have to spend more money for a fully equipped Boxster S than somebody else for a "naked" 996.

    I always was the friend of the 911 "light" idea, a stripped down 996 with 50 kg less weight. No leather, no HIFI, no rear seats, Recaro shells, no A/C, no electrical comfort stuff, no sunroof...and the whole thing for the price of a well equipped Boxster S. And exactly here's the problem.

    What I don't like about Porsche is the fact that they never started to give us customers something back from their profit.
    Yes, they improved their cars...quality is much better on the 996 as it was 4 years ago. But is it enough?

    We customers made it possible for Porsche to survive.
    Why not give us something back, something nice and something fast? How about option packages at very low prices? How about performance packages at very low prices?

    OK, Porsche gave us the Cayenne and a big butt 996 C4S but I'm not sure this was what I was dreaming of.

    Oct 19, 2002 7:39:44 PM

    FixedWing
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    Reply to: spider

    Resale

    My take on the resale issue is that in general, the makeup of the resale market is very much like that of the new market. To illustrate, if 40% of the new market want automatics then probably about 40% of the used market also wants automatics. So if you outfit the car that you want the way that you want it then somewhere out there there is probably someone just like you who will appreciate your car. But there might not be two of them. And in all likelihood, there probably won't be another car like yours either. So it isn't that the car is unsaleable but rather that it can be more difficult for the buyer and seller to find each other.

    There are variations on this. I actually think the variation favours the sportier cars. I think that there are a lot of people out there who buy Porsche as jewellery who would only ever buy a new car. So there is no market for these cars when they are used. These are the ones maxed out on options and invariably with automatic transmissions.

    On the other hand, many of the people who are looking for serious performance machines would never consider buying new. Why would they want to eat all of that depreciation? Plus they feel themselves much more capable of maintaining their own cars. These motorheads will only look for used. Of course, they would never be caught dead in an automatic.

    So my personal feeling is that it makes economic sense to build a performance Porsche and that if you do it is going to be very saleable. I followed this philosophy. And because I paid so little for the car I can afford to sell it a lot cheaper than the loaded competition. I have an edge there. And I haven't seen many cars outfitted the way mine is so I have an edge there also.

    S.

    Oct 19, 2002 8:42:06 PM

    flippo jr
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    Reply to: FixedWing

    Another disincentive to order something " unique"

    The dealer will probably want a massive deposit if it's so " different "- meaning not black, silver or lapis , LOL,that they have a harder time selling it if you back out.
    A local 996 cab in flourescent enamel lime green comes to mind as an extreme example

    Oct 19, 2002 9:25:19 PM

    spider
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    Reply to: flippo jr

    Re: Another disincentive to order something " unique"

    Absolutely correct.

    I ordered a stripper C4 in rainforest green with no sunroof. The salesperson was ok with it... at first a little nervous about a car without a sunroof, but I insisted that was what I wanted.

    Well, a couple of days later I get an apologetic call from the salesperson who tells me that they want 5K deposit on the car, even though this was the 3rd Porsche that I was purchasing from them. I talked them into taking 3K deposit...and of course I took the car when it arrived, much to their relief.

    I suspect that round 2 will take place when I go to trade the C4 for whatever stripper Porsche I feel like getting when the time is proper. Maybe I will have to sell the green non-sunroof C4 to an eco freak in Seattle.

    //// \\\\ spider

    Oct 20, 2002 12:40:06 AM

    Tpup
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    Reply to: spider

    Re: Another disincentive to order something " unique"

    I'm not a big fan of the "Dealer Council". Their interest is profits for the Dealership, not extending the brand (other than the profit potential). They think they learned a long time ago that the profitable customer is not always the hard core Porsche customer. Personlly, I think they are short sited; the first time customer may buy all the optional crap and generate a more profitable sale short term, guys like me have purchased 14 Porsches since 1985, which generates more gorss margin dollars long term?

    I agree with the thread, I would like to see a "RS" version of the 996, not an overpriced car with a bit more hp and coilovers badged as a "GT3".

    Roy

    Oct 20, 2002 2:56:12 PM

    ignacio
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    Reply to: spider

    spider--i agree a base car with no options chould be offered

    as a club racer but that will always be a small portion of total sales.

    Oct 20, 2002 4:31:01 PM

    ignacio
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    Reply to: RCA

    rc- some of us use our 911's as daily drivers and like the

    amenities of your ml55 without being ripped off. a club racer should also be offered but would have appeal to only a small minority.

    my main point is that porsche uses so many choices as an excuse to gouge us with overpriced options that should be standard in such an expensive car. the success of the c4s confirms that offering most options as a standard package is an approach that will be popular with most customers.

    btw--your turbo has a big ass, too!

    Oct 20, 2002 4:42:17 PM

    flippo jr
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    Reply to: ignacio

    Ignacio, the C4S is Porsche's best kept value secret

    If you could even get a C4 narrow body in US , add wide body kit, Turbo brakes/suspension, PSM, upgraded leather and all the other things to make a narrow body equivalent to base C4S, it actually stickers out thousands more .

    Oct 20, 2002 4:45:50 PM

    flippo jr
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    Reply to: ignacio

    Ignacio, the C4S is Porsche's best kept value secret

    If you could even get a C4 narrow body in US , add wide body kit, Turbo brakes/suspension, PSM, upgraded leather and all the other things to make a narrow body equivalent to base C4S, it actually stickers out thousands more .
    Best advice for first time Porsche buyer is C4S with minimal options and negotiating several thousand off ( 5-7%) MSRP at this soft sales time.
    The C4S version of the 993 has held it's value far better than the narrow bodies.

    Oct 22, 2002 3:30:56 AM

    ignacio
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    Reply to: flippo jr

    flippo- i agree the c4s is a good value--witness the benefit

    of packaging a bunch of options together. i didn't know the 993 c4s held its value better but it makes sense that the model that is always loaded and more unusual should hold its value better. most people don't want stripped models in this price range.

    as for those who say the c4s ownwers don't care about performance may i point out that 0-100kmh is less important in a porsche than its ability to carve a sweeper. remember the c4s is considerably faster in nurbringen (sp?) than the c2. i also don't have to worry about losing adhesion by decelerating by mistake in a corner at 150kph. even if you only make this mistake 1 in 1000 tries the body damages and/or injuries provide a great incentive to buy a more forgiving vehicle. wet traction is also greatly enhanced. no wonder resale is better. maybe even enough to help me buy a turbo next time!

    Oct 22, 2002 2:59:26 PM

    Grant
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    Reply to: ignacio

    1 second is not "significant" on an 8.5 minute course...

    Oct 22, 2002 9:38:26 PM

    ignacio
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    Reply to: Grant

    grant--the difference between the c2 and c4s was much more

    than 1 sec in the 'ring. i don't remember the exact figure except that it was approximately half way between the turbo and the "faster" c2.

    Oct 22, 2002 11:42:41 PM

    FixedWing
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    Reply to: ignacio

    the difference between the c2 and c4s

    I recall it being closer to one second...

    The C2 has the advantage in top speed. It has less frontal area due to the smaller tyres at the back. Also slightly less rolling resistance.

    The C4S has a small advantage in traction but less than you might imagine. There is little if any difference in the front tyres and this is what controls on turn-in.

    Then there is the whole AWD vs. RWD thing. Much of Nürburgring is actually very fast even though it might not seem it at first. At those high speeds having AWD doesn't hold great advantages. AWD also slows down the turn-in.

    And lastly there is the effect of AWD on the ability to effectively control oversteer with the trottle. This is difficult if not impossible with the AWD car. Here the C2 has a very big advantage.

    My surprise is only that the RWD C2 doesn't have a really big advantage over the AWD C4S. Driver must have been having a bad day.

    S.

    Oct 23, 2002 2:06:11 AM

    Grant
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    Reply to: FixedWing

    I agree, Stephen!

    Oct 23, 2002 5:33:50 AM

    ignacio
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    Reply to: FixedWing

    wing-c4s was 4 sec faster-excellence magazine apr 2002

    c2-8:20
    c4s-8:16
    turbo-7:56
    gt2- 7:44

    perhaps the advantage in traction is more significant than you thought

    to me for a daily driver the major difference is better adhesion in the rain
     
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