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Re: Shell V-Power gas
Stations in the Bay Area have it now only in premium grade. Supposed to work as well as the higher concentration Techron pkg in Chevron Supreme. It's about time . Shell has been behind Chevron in our area in this regard. I had a bad fuel sender ( gummed up ) in my MBZ and service rep said it's common problem with local premium fuel users except Chevron. Maybe I'll start using them again.
Re: Shell V-Power gas
Quote:
ADias said:
I noticed RC referring to the new Shell V-Power gas on the german forum. Can someone care to comment about this new gas formulation (5x more detergent)?
Shell V-Power offers 100 octane instead of the "usual" 98 octane. This would translate into 97 octane US instead of the 95 octane US available at most german fuel stations (called Super Plus).
Shell V-Power is actually a big rip-off: most cars can't use the additional octane figure, all car companies already confirmed that (including Porsche). Better cleaning of the engine, less pollution? Right. But the "standard" Super Plus fuel isn't bad either, so there isn't really an advantage which would justify around 12-16 Euro Cents more cost per litre.
This is actually a new way how european oil companies started to earn more money during these "hard" days. Europeans use a lot of Diesel, so they had to come up with something new to keep fuel sales up and running.
Re: Shell V-Power gas
In California with max 91 oct, V-power is being marketed as a reformulated high detergent / valve cleaning premium gas , not for enhancing performance , to compare to the gold std Chevron Supreme, which is the fuel all US makers use for their EPA certification tests.
The ads only show a pretty yellow fish swimming in pristine blue water .
The ads only show a pretty yellow fish swimming in pristine blue water .
Re: Shell V-Power gas
Quite ironic when you think about it, LA/SF prob have world's highest concentrations of high-performance cars (Monte Carlo may beat LA/SF in concentration, though not sure about absolute volumes) that could use better juice...and drivers willing/able to pay for more expensive fuel.... 
We need to lobby our man Arnie to work on these silly regs....although he sounds like a non-sportscar kind of guy 
We need to lobby our man Arnie to work on these silly regs....although he sounds like a non-sportscar kind of guy
Re: Shell V-Power gas
Quote:
vtrader said:
In Southern California, because of all the smog regulations, we barely have 91 octane US.
porsche recommendation is 93
but all the people running 91 in cali don't seem to have a problem..., that is one of my only worries about moving to cali. but since no one else has a MAJOR issue with 91 in their 93~ cars, eh, whatever.
Re: Shell V-Power gas
Let's talk apples and apples.
The 98 RON in Europe translates to a lower pump AKI number in the US.
The US unit is AKI = (RON + MON) /2
I think the European RON 98 is AKI 93 in the US. As someone said the more usual value is 91. Our Variocams compensate for that and the diff. is small.
On the Shell V-Power - yes the higher detergent amount, NOT higher AKI/RON. Someone said that Chevron had the highest detergent level befor Shell V-Power. Can someone now compare the 2? Are they the same? Does Chevron still have the advantage?
The 98 RON in Europe translates to a lower pump AKI number in the US.
The US unit is AKI = (RON + MON) /2
I think the European RON 98 is AKI 93 in the US. As someone said the more usual value is 91. Our Variocams compensate for that and the diff. is small.
On the Shell V-Power - yes the higher detergent amount, NOT higher AKI/RON. Someone said that Chevron had the highest detergent level befor Shell V-Power. Can someone now compare the 2? Are they the same? Does Chevron still have the advantage?
Re: Shell V-Power gas
Quote:
ADias said:
Let's talk apples and apples.
Another thing about the gas in California is that we have RFG.
"RFG is currently required in California (Los Angeles, San Diego, and Sacramento), Texas (Houston and Dallas-Fort Worth), Kentucky (Louisville and Covington), Virginia (Richmond and Norfolk), and Washington, D.C."
"RFG contains "oxygenates," which lower emissions but also produce less energy, so RFG will yield two to three percent lower mileage than non-oxygenated gasoline." -- From the Chevron website.
So either way, I think that will produce at least 6 horsepower less than other US cars and even more compared to our European counterparts.
Re: Shell V-Power gas
Due to anti-knock-sensors and appropriate engine electronics you shouldn't have a problem with lower-quality gasoline.
Anyhow you might feel a difference comparing 91 to 100 Octane (Euro spec) fuel.
The presentation of V-power was held on a racetrack with M. Schumacher on the wheel of two similiar Alfas. For comparison, they used 89 (!) Octane fuel against the new one. About anybody will feel a difference then!
As RC stated, you won't feel any difference - maybe 0,5 mph difference in topspeed...
Anyhow you might feel a difference comparing 91 to 100 Octane (Euro spec) fuel.
The presentation of V-power was held on a racetrack with M. Schumacher on the wheel of two similiar Alfas. For comparison, they used 89 (!) Octane fuel against the new one. About anybody will feel a difference then!
As RC stated, you won't feel any difference - maybe 0,5 mph difference in topspeed...
Re: Shell V-Power gas
Slightly off topic but not by much.
Had my car dynoed after using Normal Super Unleaded. Car made 381.7hp.
After this car uses nothing but Shell Optimax. 3 months later went back to the same dyno (with the same group of cars presant at the first session). Car made 402.5HP. Everyone else made the same power as the previous trip +/- 2HP.
Therefore, Optimax works!
P.
Had my car dynoed after using Normal Super Unleaded. Car made 381.7hp.
After this car uses nothing but Shell Optimax. 3 months later went back to the same dyno (with the same group of cars presant at the first session). Car made 402.5HP. Everyone else made the same power as the previous trip +/- 2HP.
Therefore, Optimax works!
P.
Re: Shell V-Power gas
Quote:
Mr.RS said:
Slightly off topic but not by much.
Had my car dynoed after using Normal Super Unleaded. Car made 381.7hp.
After this car uses nothing but Shell Optimax. 3 months later went back to the same dyno (with the same group of cars presant at the first session). Car made 402.5HP. Everyone else made the same power as the previous trip +/- 2HP.
Therefore, Optimax works!
P.
You should report that to Porsche Development, this is the first time a Porsche gained a HP figure from higher octane fuel.
You can put 120 octane fuel in your GT3 RS, you won't get one single HP, believe it or not.
Has your engine been dynoed or was it done at the wheels? Only engine dynos are significant, the other stuff is crap to fool people. But again...you won't believe me.
Regarding V-Power in the US: it is interesting that Shell advertises V-Power differently in the US, maybe even using a different kind of fuel quality.
According to the Aral Technology Centre in Germany, 98 octane fuel ROZ translates into 95 octane fuel MOZ. We had a few discussions about this but I suppose Aral knows what they're saying.
Porsche cars work with lower fuel quality too but people have to realize that the recommended fuel quality is the one which delivers the standard power figure. But don't worry if you use lower quality fuel like 93 or 91 octane: according to Porsche, the power loss is in the 5 HP range.
Re: Shell V-Power gas
RC,
I am not a great one for dyno's either (just look at the HP figures quoted by some US owners) I found this experiment had relevance for the following reasons.
1) The same Dyno was used for both runs.
2) The same group of cars were dynoed on both days with a variance of +/- 2HP from the first to second visit.
Whilst I would agree that the figures are probably not a true reflection of the output of the engine, what is of interest is the increase of 5% in HP from using "ordinary" super unleaded on the initial visit to the second when the car was using only Shell Optimax.
Whilst I agree that I could put AvGas in my car and see no increase in performance, there would be an increase if the engine was adjusted to take advantage of the extra octane available.
I am sure someone will correct me but I seem to recall that 1 degree of ignition timing is worth 5hp. The extra octane allows the ignition to be advance as it inhibits the onset of "knock" or preignition. Therefore if you could adjust the ignition curve to take advantage of the additional octane available you would see an increase in performance.
Me, I am just happy that my car made more HP on the day than anyone else and I have bragging rights as the only GT3/RS with over 400HP in the UK!!!!!!
Mr 402.5HP.
I am not a great one for dyno's either (just look at the HP figures quoted by some US owners) I found this experiment had relevance for the following reasons.
1) The same Dyno was used for both runs.
2) The same group of cars were dynoed on both days with a variance of +/- 2HP from the first to second visit.
Whilst I would agree that the figures are probably not a true reflection of the output of the engine, what is of interest is the increase of 5% in HP from using "ordinary" super unleaded on the initial visit to the second when the car was using only Shell Optimax.
Whilst I agree that I could put AvGas in my car and see no increase in performance, there would be an increase if the engine was adjusted to take advantage of the extra octane available.
I am sure someone will correct me but I seem to recall that 1 degree of ignition timing is worth 5hp. The extra octane allows the ignition to be advance as it inhibits the onset of "knock" or preignition. Therefore if you could adjust the ignition curve to take advantage of the additional octane available you would see an increase in performance.
Me, I am just happy that my car made more HP on the day than anyone else and I have bragging rights as the only GT3/RS with over 400HP in the UK!!!!!!
Mr 402.5HP.
Re: Shell V-Power gas
Quote:
Mr.RS said:
...
Mr 402.5HP.
Well, even if the hp gain cumulated because of temperature or humidity differences and after a certain break-in period of the car, there will definately be a increase in output - if RC says it gains 5 hp, this might be the case from 95 to 98 Octane, hence from 91 to 100 Octane ~20hp sound quite reasonable!
Re: Shell V-Power gas
Quote:
Ferdie said:
Well, even if the hp gain cumulated because of temperature or humidity differences and after a certain break-in period of the car, there will definately be a increase in output - if RC says it gains 5 hp, this might be the case from 95 to 98 Octane, hence from 91 to 100 Octane ~20hp sound quite reasonable!
I think you didn't understand my post: according to Porsche, you get a ~ 5 HP loss on modern models if you use the lowest approved quality vs. the recommended 98 octane ROZ.
You don't gain anything if you're using let's say 105 octane ROZ vs. 98 octane ROZ, not one single HP.
Mr. RS said he tested his car months later, maybe his engine just got run in. But I still doubt dyno testing as long as the engine itself isn't tested.
Re: Shell V-Power gas
Quote:
RC said:
...
Mr. RS said he tested his car months later, maybe his engine just got run in. But I still doubt dyno testing as long as the engine itself isn't tested.
Hm, I suppose I overread something...
I also believe that a certain amount of hp is due to break-in on the first test.
RC, it's a quarter after midnight. Sleep well!
Re: Shell V-Power gas
RC,
Again I have to agree with you. There are lots of variables mileage being one of them.
My comments relate not so much to the Octane rating (Optimax is 98 RON) but too the quality of the fuel itself.
My car had about a 1000 miles on the clock when it was dynoed. The other cars had about the same.
They were running Optimax, I was running another brand with 97 RON.
They made between 390-396HP. I made 381HP.
When we went back 3 months later (to the same dyno) I had about 5000 miles on the clock the others had between 3000-5000. They still made between 390-396HP. My car jumped to 402.5HP, a 5% increase.
Now, as I said earlier, I do not put a lot of faith in chassis dyno's it is all a bit of fun. However a 5% increase in HP just by changing fuel (and maybe a few extra miles) seems quite significant.
If the other cars on the day had made 5% more HP than the previous visit I would not even bother writing about it. The fact that they made pretty much the same acts as a kind of test consistant and validates the increase I saw.
To be honest I don't care how much HP the car has, I doubt very much if I will go back again. In my mind Optimax gave me a 5% increase in HP and that is what really counts!
Happy to be proved wrong but I think we would then get into a discussion that would be difficult to conduct in a forum and would be best suited to the Beer Keller (or however you spell it!).
Let me know the next time you are in the UK and the first round is on me!!!
Oh, and RC I think you can call me Paul now!
P.
Again I have to agree with you. There are lots of variables mileage being one of them.
My comments relate not so much to the Octane rating (Optimax is 98 RON) but too the quality of the fuel itself.
My car had about a 1000 miles on the clock when it was dynoed. The other cars had about the same.
They were running Optimax, I was running another brand with 97 RON.
They made between 390-396HP. I made 381HP.
When we went back 3 months later (to the same dyno) I had about 5000 miles on the clock the others had between 3000-5000. They still made between 390-396HP. My car jumped to 402.5HP, a 5% increase.
Now, as I said earlier, I do not put a lot of faith in chassis dyno's it is all a bit of fun. However a 5% increase in HP just by changing fuel (and maybe a few extra miles) seems quite significant.
If the other cars on the day had made 5% more HP than the previous visit I would not even bother writing about it. The fact that they made pretty much the same acts as a kind of test consistant and validates the increase I saw.
To be honest I don't care how much HP the car has, I doubt very much if I will go back again. In my mind Optimax gave me a 5% increase in HP and that is what really counts!
Happy to be proved wrong but I think we would then get into a discussion that would be difficult to conduct in a forum and would be best suited to the Beer Keller (or however you spell it!).
Let me know the next time you are in the UK and the first round is on me!!!
Oh, and RC I think you can call me Paul now!
P.
Re: Shell V-Power gas
I would imagine that todays Porsche engine does not benefit from a higher octane, but what is more interesting is the future engines with direct fuel injection as in the Audi FSI engines. Officially Audi says that going from 95 octane to 98 octane (euro fuel) the power will increase by 3 % in HP and 2 % in the torque. Unofficial test has shown that it could be as much as 10 % and 8 %. Other brands are having similar performance gains.
In other words we might not have heard the last in this story.
In other words we might not have heard the last in this story.
Re: Shell V-Power gas
Quote:
tso said:
I would imagine that todays Porsche engine does not benefit from a higher octane, but what is more interesting is the future engines with direct fuel injection as in the Audi FSI engines. Officially Audi says that going from 95 octane to 98 octane (euro fuel) the power will increase by 3 % in HP and 2 % in the torque. Unofficial test has shown that it could be as much as 10 % and 8 %. Other brands are having similar performance gains.
In other words we might not have heard the last in this story.
True. The problem is only one thing: certification and legal issues. Let's say a Porsche 998 (
) can benefit from higher fuel qualities. Let's also pretend that Porsche specced this car to deliver 400 HP at 95 octane. Now also let's say that with a fuel quality of 100 octane, this car produces 430 HP (only theoretically!). What happens now? The car isn't street legal anymore, at least not in Germany. 5% over the manufacturer's standard HP figure is allowed but not more.So the car looses it's certification for street use.
This is one reason why I think that manufacturers won't allow their engines to benefit from higher octane fuel, at least not in unlimited proportions.
BUT...I see a huge chance for Tuners and software mapping mods.
Re: Shell V-Power gas
Quote:
RC said:...Let's also pretend that Porsche specced this car to deliver 400 HP at 95 octane. Now also let's say that with a fuel quality of 100 octane, this car produces 430 HP (only theoretically!). What happens now? The car isn't street legal anymore, at least not in Germany. 5% over the manufacturer's standard HP figure is allowed but not more.
So the car looses it's certification for street use.
This is one reason why I think that manufacturers won't allow their engines to benefit from higher octane fuel, at least not in unlimited proportions...
Isn't this a case where the law is behind the times and the law should change? Or maybe PAG should certify the vehicle at 100 RON and the design allow its use at 95 RON - just a question, really, since I'm no certification expert.
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