Crown

on the Sachsenring (at least according to):

http://www.autobild.de/artikel/bmw-m5-cadillac-cts-v-mercedes-amg-e-63-s-porsche-panamera-turbo-test-13613335.html

In the British magazines the M5 was adjudged as superior. The same in the German Auto Zeitung.

I am sure that the M8 will exceed the standard already set by the M5 and then the rest of the manufacturers in the sportscar/GT segment will also get scared.

"Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

Not surprised.

Panamera is a S-class competitor, it can't compete with cars in the 5 series E-class segment.

Whoopsy:

Not surprised.

Panamera is a S-class competitor, it can't compete with cars in the 5 series E-class segment.

 

Like the current 911, the Panamera tries to be everything and to compete in several segments.

The Panamera is trying to decide whether it is a (very) powerful sports sedan or a limousine. I'm afraid in the end this Porsche car is passed by both the M5/AMG buyers and the S class buyers.

Similarly the 911 used to be a sports car for the best part of  50 years. Since the 991 model it tries to compete in everything from simple sports car to GT to hypercar.

"Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

Stupid move from Porsche positioning the Panamera in the grand saloons class. It hasn't the tradition, the perception nor the presence of a car like these. Why the Cayenne is rivaling against RRS and not its bigger brother then? Why the Cayenne is positioned as the most capable SUV "on-road" miles ahead of its inmediate persecutor then?

Porsche could have done a brilliant product with a shorter wheelbase. They have the brand heritage performance-wise, the know-how, the engineering, the estate body, everything to be a huge sucess in the executive segment. They prefered to dilute their powerful image in a territory where they have very little to do. Big mistake.

In the meantime the three germans occupied Panamera's natural position. And for Porsche is gonna be difficult to step back and "downgrade" Panamera's category... let's see how it goes with the Mission-E.

Tbh I don't know how the sales are going but I see very little new Panamera out there.

alexalex88:

Stupid move from Porsche positioning the Panamera in the grand saloons class. It hasn't the tradition, the perception nor the presence of a car like these. Why the Cayenne is rivaling against RRS and not its bigger brother then? Why the Cayenne is positioned as the most capable SUV "on-road" miles ahead of its inmediate persecutor then?

Porsche could have done a brilliant product with a shorter wheelbase. They have the brand heritage performance-wise, the know-how, the engineering, the estate body, everything to be a huge sucess in the executive segment. They prefered to dilute their powerful image in a territory where they have very little to do. Big mistake.

In the meantime the three germans occupied Panamera's natural position. And for Porsche is gonna be difficult to step back and "downgrade" Panamera's category... let's see how it goes with the Mission-E.

Tbh I don't know how the sales are going but I see very little new Panamera out there.

x2 My thoughts, if I would want an performance sedan I would look for the most capable one with enough comfort to be a DD, enough room in the back but the Panamera is bigger than the M5/E63 but doesn't seem to be a competitor to the 7 series/ S-class comfort wise and offering enough space in the back.

Now that Bentley uses the Panamera platform, they have the Continental GT as an modern "928", and the upcoming Flying Spur can be a real competitor to the S-class, that leaves room for Porsche to build the Panamera as an 5-series/E-class competitor...

RS 991:

Now that Bentley uses the Panamera platform, they have the Continental GT as an modern "928", and the upcoming Flying Spur can be a real competitor to the S-class, that leaves room for Porsche to build the Panamera as an 5-series/E-class competitor...

I don't see Porsche downgrading the Panamera fighting class. Pany is not the best seller in Europe but the Asian market is pretty good for them. A bit overpriced in Middle East to stay ''exclusive'' but it is a mistake because they are more expansive than direct ''luxury'' competitor...S class here where you see them everywhere...

they will leave this room for the Mission E and hopefully it will work...

GT Lover, Porsche fan

991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

Cayenne GTS 2014

the-missile:

RS 991:

Now that Bentley uses the Panamera platform, they have the Continental GT as an modern "928", and the upcoming Flying Spur can be a real competitor to the S-class, that leaves room for Porsche to build the Panamera as an 5-series/E-class competitor...

I don't see Porsche downgrading the Panamera fighting class. Pany is not the best seller in Europe but the Asian market is pretty good for them. A bit overpriced in Middle East to stay ''exclusive'' but it is a mistake because they are more expansive than direct ''luxury'' competitor...S class here where you see them everywhere...

they will leave this room for the Mission E and hopefully it will work...

 

I agree, that's why there's also the executive version. As long as the sales figure are good they can invest more into building more and better sports cars. Btw. I see a lot of Panamera's here in Switzerland, much more than the previous model.

New Panamera does not seem to be selling very well, lots of Turbo S and every other model sitting on Porsche dealer lots.

In the meantime, at least here in Chicago, all M5s, E63S are flying off the lots, good luck finding even the luxo barges like S63, M760 or B7.

Well the M5/E63 have become so big and luxurious having all the technology that the 7 series/S-class  have.

Once Mission E is out Panamera is done...

Missionn E is smaller than a Panamera size wise. It occupies the slot below the Panamera.

The volume slot, E-class, 5 series. Same slot as the Model S.

Yet it will cost 2x as much as an E-class. Good look with that volume.

Will cost the same to refuel the mission e too lol

Whoopsy:

Missionn E is smaller than a Panamera size wise. It occupies the slot below the Panamera.

The volume slot, E-class, 5 series. Same slot as the Model S.

 

 

The Panamera is bloated with no luggage space and not that big interior, and at least before only 4 seater. To me if designed better the size of the mission E still makes it a direct competitor. And if that rumored price tag is true, Panamera sales will collapse even more than their poor sales number. In the end, money talks and the Panamera is a horrible value already.

Porsche made a huge mistake with the new Panamera, they did the much needed improvement to styling but they forgot about the performance, just another "me too" instead of blowing all others to Kingdom come..

As it is, the car makes absolutely no sense at all, too expensive vs other performance sedans like M5 or E63S and inferior performance wise to both, when compared as a luxury car, an S63 or S65 or M760, all these are on another planet.

No wonder my dealer sits on a dozen Turbos and another half dozen Turbo S.

 A lot of those Turbo Ss are canceled orders. They were sitting at a Houston port for almost 8 months because of EPA and the customers canceled them.

But Panamera were never a big seller in the USA in the first place. Porsche, actually the old CEO WW, made the mistake of chasing S-class. That sized car is a hit only for China market where people are being driven around.

For people that drive themselves here and Europe, the E-class is the better choice. 

Had Porsche did the Pamanera in the E-clas segment I the first place, they would have been much better off to us enthusiasts. But we are only a minority when compared to the Chinese market. Or Russian. OR the Middle East market for that matters.

Whoopsy:

Had Porsche did the Pamanera in the E-clas segment I the first place, they would have been much better off to us enthusiasts. But we are only a minority when compared to the Chinese market. Or Russian. OR the Middle East market for that matters.

 

Middle East is out of consideration, it is either SUVs or S class

The panamera in UAE for instance is very close to a flop...

GT Lover, Porsche fan

991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

Cayenne GTS 2014

I am in Italy right now.

On my way to Lake Garda, I encountered an AMG GT S, a S63 S AMG Coupe and a Ferrari 488.

From 100 to 250 kph, my E63 S was exactly as fast as the AMG GT S (I assume it was the 510 hp version), over 250 I started to pull away slowly, at speedo 278 kph he lost a car length. In a speed limited zone, he pulled to my right and showed thumbs up.

The S63 S AMG, I passed slowly but steadily, it took me from 120 to 200 to do that.

The Ferrari 488 was of course faster but it took him, surprisingly, from 120 to 220 kph to completely pass me. Weird. Driver didn't look happy.

Long story short: My son said after this encounter that he doesn't understand why someone would get s sportscar if you can have the same performance in a family sedan. Of course there is much more to a sportscar than straight line acceleration performance but he has a point. High performance sedans definitely make a lot of sense but this is why I don't understand Porsche's approach: The Panamera Turbo S as a hybrid makes NO sense at all. 

Btw: My E63S isn't even properly broken in yet, performance will increase (from other owner's experience) after passing 5000 km or so.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mini JCW (2015)

Panamera hybridation makes perfect sense if done right (a la 918 and not a la e-hybrid). Shorter wheelbase, slightly lighter batteries, more power output both from batteries and engine and maybe longer e-range for daily commutes. THAT would be miles ahead of any competition in its segment.

Nowadays the Turbo S has more power but also weights way more than the regular Turbo. I suppose the differenciation between these two models is not big enough to justify the price gap despite all the tax benefits, parking spots and so on.

Agreed, Panamera Turbo S would have been great at 200 kg less weight but Porsche needs a certain gain margin per car and I assume it wouldn't have been possible to achieve these gain margins with more high tech.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mini JCW (2015)

Absolutely.

One of these cancelled orders is mine, car has nothing better then cars costing tens of thousands less.

RC:

 

Long story short: My son said after this encounter that he doesn't understand why someone would get s sportscar if you can have the same performance in a family sedan. Of course there is much more to a sportscar than straight line acceleration performance but he has a point. High performance sedans definitely make a lot of sense but this is why I don't understand Porsche's approach: The Panamera Turbo S as a hybrid makes NO sense at all. 
--

 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mini JCW (2015)

 

Is your son reflecting your views? Does an Alpine HAS to be faster than a sedan to be a sport car?  He does not have a point IMHO and high speed highway acceleration is only important in Germany.

RC, your son has come to realize what many car fanatics don't until they're old and grey -- most modern high-end cars get used the same way aside from the throttle and reach the same speeds outside of a straight line.

As I pointed out elsewhere, look at the average speed distance on the NBR for a 911 Turbo S and a Panamera Turbo S. The difference in average speed is probably not much more than the inaccuracy of the speedometer itself. Can your really tell the difference between 70 mph and 68 mph?

In the real world, you don't wear tires down after 30 minutes, you don't boil your fluids... Both cars will probably be capable of reaching the same speeds you'd be comfortable with on any given road.

After all, Porsche did 7:38 on the NBR in the PTTS. Can anyone on here do 7:38 even in a 911 Turbo S? I'm guess maybe 1 or 2 people tops, and 0.0000001% of Porsche owners globally. 

The reason most people would buy a sports car over a sedan is because they flat out look better and are cooler. In the case of the Panamera, it's flat out unattractive.

noone1:

As I pointed out elsewhere, look at the average speed distance on the NBR for a 911 Turbo S and a Panamera Turbo S. The difference in average speed is probably not much more than the inaccuracy of the speedometer itself. Can your really tell the difference between 70 mph and 68 mph?

Maybe not, but I can sure tell the difference between a 911 TTS and a Panamera TS, which is the point that you completely seem to miss.

The reason most people would buy a sports car over a sedan is because they flat out look better and are cooler. In the case of the Panamera, it's flat out unattractive.

No, that is only the case for people who can't tell the difference between a 911 TTS and a Panamera TS...

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

Like I said, most people. Not members of RT obviously...

That said, I have no doubt Porsche could create a Panamera that feels a heck of a lot closer to a 911 Turbo if they really wanted to. They obviously don't, but they could.

You're comparing apples to oranges: a lap time achieved by a factory driver, 7:38 with a Panamera TTS, with the lap time an amateur driver here in this board would achieve with a 911 TTS. I know you like argue for the sake of argument but this is getting boring.

Nowadays executive saloons have become brilliant cars and they might have similar performance figures than sports cars. Fact. They have nothing to do with and no chance against a sports car because of the weight, weight distribution, center of mass, aero, chassis stiffness, cornering, breaking, handling, steering, etc. Period.

I guess the point is this: You can either buy faster cars or learn to drive slower cars faster.

The fact remains that something like a Panamera TTS can achieve 7:38. I really do think most here would be slower than that in a 911 Turbo and very likely have an accident in attempting to do so. I pose a simple question: Does the performance of a 911 Turbo over a PTTS make a terribly obvious objective difference in the real world? I'm leaning towards no.

Now I'm not saying they don't feel different. Of course they feel different, but in terms of performance, it probably doesn't make much of a difference to the average buyer.

Yes it does, huge difference actually. Is not that in open roads you drive like a maniac but the (size, weight, steering, breaking, aero, grip, etc.) difference is very noticeable in one car and the other.

Regarding lap times: a Jaguar X-whatever drove by Jeremy Clarkson was slightly faster -a matter of seconds if I'm not wrong- than a Ford Transit drove by Sabine Schmitz. "Does the performance of a Jaguar X-whtever over a Ford Transit make a terribly obvious objective difference in the real world?"

If we were comparing two completely different cars, I would agree. However, the difference between a Turbo and a PTTS is nowhere near that of a Jag and a Transit.

Don't forget that there is an upper bounds to performance. All the cars get more and more compressed as we reach the plateau of what is usable, especially considering roads are not changing to accommodate changes in cars. There becomes a point where the performance of both cars is greater than the willingness of the driver.

0-60 and 200-300 are excellent examples of compression and irrelevance, at least in the US. Kreso's new M5 has been clocked at 2.8s for 0-60. That's barely any slower than a LaFerrari. Move up the dial and while an LF is way quicker than an M5 from 200-300, it's really an irrelevant interval outside of the Autobahn.

Again, I'm not saying the cars don't feel different or more exciting at a given speed, but I do believe that objectively there isn't that much difference to a very large amount of Porsche buyers in real world usage.

SciFrog:

RC:

 

Long story short: My son said after this encounter that he doesn't understand why someone would get s sportscar if you can have the same performance in a family sedan. Of course there is much more to a sportscar than straight line acceleration performance but he has a point. High performance sedans definitely make a lot of sense but this is why I don't understand Porsche's approach: The Panamera Turbo S as a hybrid makes NO sense at all. 

Is your son reflecting your views? Does an Alpine HAS to be faster than a sedan to be a sport car?  He does not have a point IMHO and high speed highway acceleration is only important in Germany.

+1

Straight line performance 

RC, put your son in a GT3 RS and drive him around the Ring until he turns green... then he will understand why people buy sports cars  Making a car go fast in a straight line is zero effort these days. Doing the same through bends and curves with pinpoint steering and heavy braking is something entirely different.

2017 991.2 Carrera 4 GTS | GT Silver Metallic - The GT3 Killah!
2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White