Crown

I don't see why an R8 makes no sense. It's cheap to build both it and the Huracan, so yo might as well make a super car for a different price range and a different style. As a bonus it elevates the Audi brand.

10 years ago there was Ferrari and Lamborghini. That was pretty much it. Now there is Lamborghini, Audi, Ferrari, McLaren, Honda, etc, and there is no indication the market can't support more. There is room for an exotic from just about every brand.

noone1:

I don't see why an R8 makes no sense. It's cheap to build both it and the Huracan, so yo might as well make a super car for a different price range and a different style. As a bonus it elevates the Audi brand.

10 years ago there was Ferrari and Lamborghini. That was pretty much it. Now there is Lamborghini, Audi, Ferrari, McLaren, Honda, etc, and there is no indication the market can't support more. There is room for an exotic from just about every brand.

Then you are blind, as usual.

Audi is the mass market brand, they don't need a R8 there. It is there only because Piech doesn't want Porsche to have it and wanted to elevate his baby up the ladder. 

Audi needing an R8 makes as much sense as VW selling a S-Class rival Phaeton. Both are Piech's ego products to elevate 'his' brand.

He has no loyalty to Porsche, he might have Porsche blood but he doesn't like his cousins, nor the Porsche clan. He is a Piech clan.

Audi having an R8 is like Mercedes parking the SLS with Smartcar brand. 

the-missile:

Whoopsy:

Try this for unusual color.

Tell me this is a wrap or I am missing something? 

Not sure. It was on the other side of the parking lot and didn't see it up close.

We had our first race today at Hockenheim.

Got a surprise. Dr. Walliser dropped by and hang out at the garage and did a grid walk to our cars.

Felt like driving for the Works team seeing Walliser in the garage  

Yes, Whoopsy, because you speak for the entire world on what cars do and don't make sense. Plenty of people buy R8s, so clearly there is a decent market for them.

You're right, Audi doesn't need the R8, just like Porsche doesn't need the GT cars at all. It's pretty much an SUV company, but I'm guessing you can make an excellent case for their existence...

noone1:

Yes, Whoopsy, because you speak for the entire world on what cars do and don't make sense. Plenty of people buy R8s, so clearly there is a decent market for them.

You're right, Audi doesn't need the R8, just like Porsche doesn't need the GT cars at all. It's pretty much an SUV company, but I'm guessing you can make an excellent case for their existence...

From the guy that drives a RAV4......

That's rich.

Whoopsy:

We had our first race today at Hockenheim.

Got a surprise. Dr. Walliser dropped by and hang out at the garage and did a grid walk to our cars.

Felt like driving for the Works team seeing Walliser in the garage  

What car are you driving in the race. The TT?

Where the willingness is great, the difficulties cannot be great.

Whoopsy:

noone1:

Yes, Whoopsy, because you speak for the entire world on what cars do and don't make sense. Plenty of people buy R8s, so clearly there is a decent market for them.

You're right, Audi doesn't need the R8, just like Porsche doesn't need the GT cars at all. It's pretty much an SUV company, but I'm guessing you can make an excellent case for their existence...

 

From the guy that drives a RAV4......

That's rich.

Or from the guy who bought the original R8...

noone1:

Whoopsy:

noone1:

Yes, Whoopsy, because you speak for the entire world on what cars do and don't make sense. Plenty of people buy R8s, so clearly there is a decent market for them.

You're right, Audi doesn't need the R8, just like Porsche doesn't need the GT cars at all. It's pretty much an SUV company, but I'm guessing you can make an excellent case for their existence...

 

From the guy that drives a RAV4......

That's rich.

Or from the guy who bought the original R8...

The first gen R8 has as much to do with the current R8 as the 996 Carrera does with the 991. 😜

Yes, a decent amount of people get the R8 but an even bigger amount of people avoid it because it doesn't have a "proper" brand badge on it. Sad but true.  This is snobism 101 but also the reality.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mini JCW (2015)

The fact remains it probably doesn't cost much at all to create both the R8 and Huracan and the effect on the brand's imagine is at the very least 0, if not positive. The R8/Huracan is pretty much the definition of how VW operates -- build as many different models as you can on as few of platforms as possible. Different design, different brand, different price, very similar car.

RC:

Whoopsy:

If not for Piech's fierce passion for Audi, there would never been an Audi R8. That slot would fit perfectly within Porsche.

Very well said. The R8 makes no sense at Audi (apprently everyone at Audi knows that, with the exception of Audi and VW Group leadership), a 960 at Porsche does. Otherwise Porsche wouldn't loose customers to Audi, Lamborghini, McLaren and even Ferrari.

Blame Piech for killing the 960 even before it was born.

Maybe...

Christian, can you respond to my post earlier in this thread about how the 960 doesn't have a role to fill in the current Porsche lineup (in my opinion)?  I would have quoted it but I don't know how to multiquote on Rennteam.

Guest:

On the 960, I'm disappointed that they won't build one, but what market position would it occupy?

Presumably it would have been a mid-engined twin of the next generation Huracan and R8 (provided they continue to make the R8).  So it would be priced in between R8 and Huracan, in a price segment that already includes several top tier 911 models, whether GTx cars or Turbo cars.  And what powerplant would it have?  Surely not the Audi V10.  Either a turbo flat six or turbo V8 from Panamera/Cayenne.

So what would Porsche do about the 911s in the same segment?  Would the 960 be a more luxurious GT car than the 911?  In that case, build a front-engined car, a two door Panamera.  If the 960 were a hardcore track special sports car, who would buy an RS, whether GT3 or GT2?  Or what if the customer base shunned the 960 and bought the RS 911 instead?  The GT2 RS is one of the quickest road cars in the world around a track; how could they make something materially faster?

Alternatively, what if they tried to position the 960 as a Superfast / Aventador competitor (a market segment that is not as crowded); a Porsche based off of an Audi would be a tough sell against an Italian V12 even if the Porsche could do the Nordschleife in 5 minutes in reverse.

Bottom line - why go to the effort to develop a generic supercar that is nonessential to the brand's model line and competes directly with the most aspirational 911 models?

 

You make many of good points.

As a brand I don't see Porsche positioning itself in the $250,000-350,000 segment. The completion is too fierce. The GT models occupy the $150,000-225,000 segment. If they produce a 960 below $200,000 it would savage the regular 911 models since many with options are getting close to $150,000-175,000 range..

Porsche is very comfortable in its present market segment. It doesn't have any serious competitors. Why expand if there isn't a compelling financial reason to do so?

Where the willingness is great, the difficulties cannot be great.

I think you may be overlooking something Guest, and that is that $250,000 cars buyers don't necessarily buy and hold a single car through the product life. As long as you space out the car launches, there will be tons of people who just swap cars when the next hotness shows up. Just like when people go coupe -> convertible -> track-day.

The trick to expansion of a line-up that avoids cannibalization is getting people to just buy them all.

So is there room for a 960? Absolutely. Why not?

noone1:

I think you may be overlooking something Guest, and that is that $250,000 cars buyers don't necessarily buy and hold a single car through the product life. As long as you space out the car launches, there will be tons of people who just swap cars when the next hotness shows up. Just like when people go coupe -> convertible -> track-day.

The trick to expansion of a line-up that avoids cannibalization is getting people to just buy them all.

So is there room for a 960? Absolutely. Why not?

Well, yes, I suppose I implicitly assumed that it would be difficult for Porsche to sell the 960 in the first place given what else they sell at a similar price point.

Your argument borrows from the Ferrari and McLaren strategy, but only one of those manufacturers has a customer base that sleeps easy at night not worrying about depreciation (whether they drive the car or not).

I'd assume the 960 would just be the same as the 918 (minus the super expensive bits).

911 Turbo $200K
GT3 $150K
GT3 RS $200K
960 $275-300K
GT2 RS doesn't get produced anymore

I think that line-up works well. 911 fanatics get the 911 in various forms of low-key and over-the-top, and the exotic fanatics get the mid-engine supercar. Performance-wise you make the 960 above the GT3 RS.

I don't think depreciation matters much. Many VAG high-end/exotic cars depreciate a ton, yet they find plenty of buyers. Look at the depreciation on all those SVs. Those are running like $500-600K. Bentleys lose $50K the second your drive them off the lot. 911 Turbos lose a lot, as do Turbo S Cayennes and Panameras.

I think a 960 would have reasonable residuals. Probably better than Lamborghini.

nberry:

Whoopsy:

We had our first race today at Hockenheim.

Got a surprise. Dr. Walliser dropped by and hang out at the garage and did a grid walk to our cars.

Felt like driving for the Works team seeing Walliser in the garage  

What car are you driving in the race. The TT?

Cup car.

I am running the Porsche Sport Cup Deutschland this year.

You guys are looking at Porsche as a standalone brand, that needs to cover the market top to bottom.

But Porsche is part of a bigger group, VAG, so in VAG's grand plans, 960 is not really needed, if someone wants a mid engine car in that price segment they can buy the Lamborghini.

In the grand plans, just talkingbaout the main badges, if one wants a cheap car, they buy a VW, mainstream car they buy Audi. Sports car they buy Porsche. Exotics they can go to Lamborghini. High end luxury car they can buy Bentley. Truly exotic they buy the Bugatti.

Whoopsy:

 

Cup car.

I am running the Porsche Sport Cup Deutschland this year.

How did it go ? The first corner after the start must of been something , in the middle of the wolf pack ! 

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

Whoopsy:

You guys are looking at Porsche as a standalone brand, that needs to cover the market top to bottom.

But Porsche is part of a bigger group, VAG, so in VAG's grand plans, 960 is not really needed, if someone wants a mid engine car in that price segment they can buy the Lamborghini.

In the grand plans, just talkingbaout the main badges, if one wants a cheap car, they buy a VW, mainstream car they buy Audi. Sports car they buy Porsche. Exotics they can go to Lamborghini. High end luxury car they can buy Bentley. Truly exotic they buy the Bugatti.

Did you see anything looking like a GT3RS CS at W? Is it for public?

GT Lover, Porsche fan

991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

Cayenne GTS 2014

Whoopsy:

You guys are looking at Porsche as a standalone brand, that needs to cover the market top to bottom.

But Porsche is part of a bigger group, VAG, so in VAG's grand plans, 960 is not really needed, if someone wants a mid engine car in that price segment they can buy the Lamborghini.

In the grand plans, just talkingbaout the main badges, if one wants a cheap car, they buy a VW, mainstream car they buy Audi. Sports car they buy Porsche. Exotics they can go to Lamborghini. High end luxury car they can buy Bentley. Truly exotic they buy the Bugatti.

Lamborghini didn't need an SUV either, but they made one...

Exactly why the Piech influence in VAG board needed to stop. Anyone named Piech should be banned from doing any board duties. Leave the decisions to Porsche clan.

Gnil:

Whoopsy:

 

Cup car.

I am running the Porsche Sport Cup Deutschland this year.

How did it go ? The first corner after the start must of been something , in the middle of the wolf pack ! 

Today was a wet race and you didn’t see shit the first two-three laps. Coming down the parabolic in 250-260 (rain) and just see a wall of spray in front of you is quite “chest hairy” as the word is here on RT. Looking for the red light in the wall, count to one and then brake as hell and hope for the best....

But Nick at least didn’t have to drive the last stint of the second endurance race. Dry conditions when going out, order from the team to push like it was totally dry even if it was actually lite rain. “Just keep the tyres hot and GO!” Then the havy rain started and the next you heard on the radio was... “Mike, it’s raining (as if I didn’t notice...) 9 min left, stay out, stay out, but drive like a grandma. Keep the car on the track.....” So I did like as I were told and drove 5 more laps on slicks in heavy rain. The last 1 1/2 behind SC thank god

That was REALLY chest hair racing.  Even the leader spun of....

Over all a ok weekend and even Nick did well and improved a lot And it’s always a great fun with Nick around. Cheers Bud and see you in July.  (And good luck with Pikes in June)

Ohhh, I’ll let Nick tell you how the internal RT fight went.....

Me at the first corner yesterday 

You went pro style and go over the sausage!

The farmer:

. Coming down the parabolic in 250-260 (rain) and just see a wall of spray in front of you is quite “chest hairy” as the word is here on RT. Looking for the red light in the wall, count to one and then brake as hell and hope for the best....

 

Ohhh, I’ll let Nick tell you how the internal RT fight went.....

Thanks to RT you were pushed   to grow that thick bushy chest hair that protected you from any girlie move 

Now all the is important is who came first between you and Whoopsy 

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

Do you really have to ask....?

Let’s say like this, Whoopsy really improved over the weekend, but sorry to say, not nearly enough to catch the flying Farmer....

The farmer:

Do you really have to ask....?

Let’s say like this, Whoopsy really improved over the weekend, but sorry to say, not nearly enough to catch the flying Farmer....

Is it all the pre drinking that did not help ?  

Congratulations to both of you , as that must of taken some big ba...  . The German championship is strong 

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

Gnil:

The farmer:

Do you really have to ask....?

Let’s say like this, Whoopsy really improved over the weekend, but sorry to say, not nearly enough to catch the flying Farmer....

Is it all the pre drinking that did not help ?  

Congratulations to both of you , as that must of taken some big ba...  . The German championship is strong 

No kidding. The fastest guy is about 2 seconds faster around the track than Farmer's instructor and he is a works driver!

Our field includes the GT3R, GT3 Cup and GT4CS. The GT3R are surprisingly not that much faster if at all. All the extra downforce it has over the Cup car is sort of useless in the tight corners. 

Porsche should stick to 911 shape and buy out McLaren... McLaren is too much of a competition now and still weak enough to be gobbled up in the VW empire. This will render the 960 irrelevant.

Gnil:

RC:

Gnil:

If 960 is dropped but replaced by a small , nimble, light , great handling , fun car, it could then be a good decision

Such cars cannot happen anymore and you know that. 

 

Renault  did it with the Alpine . 1100 kg . All the comfort needed as a DD sportscar 

Yes, and with Porsche's larger budget and engineering resources even lighter should be possible.

18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi