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    Autoextremist on PAG...

    "Marketing Fraud on a Grand Scale, Brought to You by Porsche."
    By Peter M. De Lorenzo

    See full article HERE.

    Many will disagree, but he makes a lot of sense. PAG is changing and we Porsche lovers are losing.

    Re: Autoextremist on PAG...

    nothing new.
    same thing many people said when Porsche first launched the Cayenne.

    In my opinion, that's a load of *BS*.

    Re: Autoextremist on PAG...

    This is what is concerning me the most:
    "Wiedeking's idolatry of short-term profits over everything else is well known."
    I really hope that it does not all end in tears, but it usually does.

    Re: Autoextremist on PAG...

    I have owned 2 Cayennes and am planning on buying a GTS. Yes it is not a sports car. But it is the sportiest of the SUV's on the market today. Many people like myself need a SUV. SO why not a Porsche..By the way it is the largest selling Porsche made isn't it. So someone must like them. I own a number of other Porsches as well, 911's,CGT and a Cayman so I am familiar with most of what Porsche makes and has made. If you recal a few years ago. The Boxster and water cooling was suppose to be the demise of Porsche..If you don't like the Cayenne, don't buy one. If you can find another sports car with better performance and quality of a 911, buy it. This guy is bitching because Porsche is now building something other than air colled 911's. Time has moved on, peoples ideas have changed, governments have regulated older cars out of existence. In 15 years we may all be driving electric/diesel hybrid 911's. But I can guarantee that if it is a Porsche it will be one of the sportiest on the market. Get a grip. Porsche is a business that needs to make money to survive--that is a fact. They can't do it by making only the 911 or Boxster for that matter. When the economy really hits the fan, the cayenne and coming Panamera will help to cushion the impact of the loss of sales of their sports cars..This author is way off base and really doesn't understand business or sportiness...

    Re: Autoextremist on PAG...

    Quote:
    GT2R said:
    I have owned 2 Cayennes and am planning on buying a GTS. Yes it is not a sports car. But it is the sportiest of the SUV's on the market today. Many people like myself need a SUV. SO why not a Porsche..By the way it is the largest selling Porsche made isn't it. So someone must like them. I own a number of other Porsches as well, 911's,CGT and a Cayman so I am familiar with most of what Porsche makes and has made. If you recal a few years ago. The Boxster and water cooling was suppose to be the demise of Porsche..If you don't like the Cayenne, don't buy one. If you can find another sports car with better performance and quality of a 911, buy it. This guy is bitching because Porsche is now building something other than air colled 911's. Time has moved on, peoples ideas have changed, governments have regulated older cars out of existence. In 15 years we may all be driving electric/diesel hybrid 911's. But I can guarantee that if it is a Porsche it will be one of the sportiest on the market. Get a grip. Porsche is a business that needs to make money to survive--that is a fact. They can't do it by making only the 911 or Boxster for that matter. When the economy really hits the fan, the cayenne and coming Panamera will help to cushion the impact of the loss of sales of their sports cars..This author is way off base and really doesn't understand business or sportiness...



    Amen!

    I couldn't have said it better

    Re: Autoextremist on PAG...

    Quote:


    Amen!

    I couldn't have said it better


    Amen x 2
    I prefer Porsche to produce the best SUV's and the best 4 door sedans in the world, instead of making only 911 and beeing bought by Indians, Russians and so on...

    Re: Autoextremist on PAG...

    I have no major qualms with Porsche building SUV's, (I just wish they had built a prettier one) or any other models.
    I do think, however, that they must never forget that they are primarily a sports car manufacturer; and lately there seems to have been very little effort placed in that particular direction.(Other areas seem to be more profitable...in the short term)
    I'm one of the few that hold the unpopular view (amongst Porschephiles) that the 911 (as we know it) has reached its maximum (o close to it) development. Furthermore, I believe that the decision to maintain the 911 as "top of the range" has a limiting effect on development in the upper reaches of product development.
    I do not necessarily think that Porsche need to stop producing the 911, I just think that they need to introduce a model that is "above"the 911, thus allowing Porsche to carry on development into new and more "modern "areas.
    I know that this view is unpopular, but it is what I think.

    Re: Autoextremist on PAG...

    Quote:
    Spyderidol said:
    I have no major qualms with Porsche building SUV's, (I just wish they had built a prettier one) or any other models.
    I do think, however, that they must never forget that they are primarily a sports car manufacturer; and lately there seems to have been very little effort placed in that particular direction.(Other areas seem to be more profitable...in the short term)...



    Precisely!

    Re: Autoextremist on PAG...

    Since I'm on a roll and this has obviously struck a nerve I will continue. If the 911 is so outdated why, doesn't the so called far supperior F360 or F430 just clean its clock? Even in the ALMS and LeMans the 911 (still all steel) can keep pretty close times to those exotic supercars that F builds. Of course the Ferraris use bigger engines, aluminum bodies, mid engines and cost much more,,,but they still only are fractions of a second faster than a Porsche..So how far outdated is Porsche?? I have a friend who collects Ferraris. My Turbo leaves his 360 Stradalle in the dust in a straight line. My GT3 corners better than his 430 and costs considerably less..By the way on his first 360 his electronics were so screwed up he would have to climb through the window to get into his car because the electronics on the door wouldn't allow it to open..8 years later the problem still exists.He is getting a 430 Scuderia and I would guess that it will be faster on the track than the GT3--it should be for $285K plus tax and licence. I would guess that if I spent $175K on my GT3 for upgrades I would be able to keep up though. You think?
    2nd,,I would imagine that a top of the line sports car (in cost) for Porsche will emerge after the Panamera in the form of a 2 door coupe. It will be a GT car similar to the 928 and share many parts from the Panamera. The 911 will still continue. This will give them the entry level Boxster/Cayman, 911 and an upper end GT machine...But I'm sure there will be some people who will complain that Porsche is doing something wrong again like making money on another iteration of an existing platform. Besides, would you pay $200K for a 911 that would beat a 430 Scuderia or Lamborgini? Not many people would. But IF you would, you ought to get your hands on a GT2, because that model will probably clean the Scuderias rear end..IMO

    Re: Autoextremist on PAG...

    What is the point of this article. The author is an [beep] Porsche hater. I love the GTS commercial and I love Porsches and I will buy as many of them as I want for as long as I want. The man who wrote this article is entitled to his opinion but he is full of it

    Re: Autoextremist on PAG...

    Quote from the article:
    "Merriam-Webster has in its definition for fraud the following: an "intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value.""

    It's not too much of a stretch to say that that's also the definition of advertising , yet we accept that all almost all commercial companies do advertise.

    I think someone else already said it. The author of the rant needs to "get over it".

    Re: Autoextremist on PAG...

    This same basic article is re-jigged every-so-often on AutoExtremist. They keep re-playing the same angles.

    Re: Autoextremist on PAG...

    I agree with general consensus here. I own both a Cayenne TT and a 08 C4S and love them both. I may even prefer the Cayenne because it's incredibly powerful, very quiet, and handles like a sports car. All while hauling the family, a ton of other stuff, and dragging a boat. The gas mileage sucks and may in-fact become a problem in the year to come, but for now, the CTT is awesome.

    Re: Autoextremist on PAG...

    I think there is too much bitter whining coming from the so called Porsche purist. If you think that a manufacturer can stand on it's own legs using only two models then you're wrong. Sports car have quite fluctuating sales and the Cayenne has brought secure and constant cash flow to Porsche. Porsche is not only a brand it's a business. Get real.

    Re: Autoextremist on PAG...

    Of the traditional 50s-60s sports car manufacturers only Porsche is healthy. Think Ferrari+Maserati=Fiat, Lambo=VW/Audi, Lotus=who's the next owner, British sports cars=defunct.
    I wonder how even Ferrari with all the clout that surrounds them would be able to cope without Fiat, especially with the money drain that F1 is.
    I think we are fed up with this notion of purity. If Porsche stayed with the 911 only it would be owned by somebody else and struggle to sell 2000-3000 cars per year.
    Porsche produce the Cayenne an excellent SUV, will produce the Panamera which I am sure will be also excellent and at the same time can still thrill the enthusiast with the GTs. The Carreras are great everyday supercars. Even the not so affluent can enjoy the Boxster/Cayman that are fantastic sport cars in their segment.
    So what is the critics' problem?

    Re: Autoextremist on PAG...

    Quote:
    Spyderidol said:
    I have no major qualms with Porsche building SUV's, (I just wish they had built a prettier one) or any other models.
    I'm one of the few that hold the unpopular view (amongst Porschephiles) that the 911 (as we know it) has reached its maximum (o close to it) development. Furthermore, I believe that the decision to maintain the 911 as "top of the range" has a limiting effect on development in the upper reaches of product development.




    Quote:
    GT2R said:
    I would imagine that a top of the line sports car (in cost) for Porsche will emerge after the Panamera in the form of a 2 door coupe. It will be a GT car similar to the 928 and share many parts from the Panamera.




    My only problem with porsche is the way they treat the leagcy of the 928. The 928 should be in that new ad and a new version should be the flagship again with the appropriate performance level. The 911 diehards should be happy with a wider product offering and a healthy company.

    Project 928 made porsche what it is today.

    Re: Autoextremist on PAG...

    Quote:
    GT2R said:
    Since I'm on a roll and this has obviously struck a nerve I will continue. If the 911 is so outdated why, doesn't the so called far supperior F360 or F430 just clean its clock? Even in the ALMS and LeMans the 911 (still all steel) can keep pretty close times to those exotic supercars that F builds. Of course the Ferraris use bigger engines, aluminum bodies, mid engines and cost much more,,,but they still only are fractions of a second faster than a Porsche..So how far outdated is Porsche?? I have a friend who collects Ferraris. My Turbo leaves his 360 Stradalle in the dust in a straight line. My GT3 corners better than his 430 and costs considerably less..By the way on his first 360 his electronics were so screwed up he would have to climb through the window to get into his car because the electronics on the door wouldn't allow it to open..8 years later the problem still exists.He is getting a 430 Scuderia and I would guess that it will be faster on the track than the GT3--it should be for $285K plus tax and licence. I would guess that if I spent $175K on my GT3 for upgrades I would be able to keep up though. You think?
    2nd,,I would imagine that a top of the line sports car (in cost) for Porsche will emerge after the Panamera in the form of a 2 door coupe. It will be a GT car similar to the 928 and share many parts from the Panamera. The 911 will still continue. This will give them the entry level Boxster/Cayman, 911 and an upper end GT machine...But I'm sure there will be some people who will complain that Porsche is doing something wrong again like making money on another iteration of an existing platform. Besides, would you pay $200K for a 911 that would beat a 430 Scuderia or Lamborgini? Not many people would. But IF you would, you ought to get your hands on a GT2, because that model will probably clean the Scuderias rear end..IMO



    Using your logic, then the car for you is the Corvette and the recently introduced GT-R.

    What you are missing is though Porsche continues to build sport cars that perform well, their image has suffered a great deal. As a result, Porsche are no longer coveted as they had been in the past. This has led to diminished values for all models. Certainly you can relate to this seeing you own a CGT.

    You may say that money is not an issue but it is a reflection of how society views a product. In other words, in the past Porsche used to be about performance exclusivity and reliability generating a cult of owners believing they owned something very special. Today, as several British and American car magazines have written about the modern Porsche "it seems like everyone owns one" they are ubiquitous". Porsche cars are nothing special but their profits are.

    Re: Autoextremist on PAG...

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    GT2R said:
    Since I'm on a roll and this has obviously struck a nerve I will continue. If the 911 is so outdated why, doesn't the so called far supperior F360 or F430 just clean its clock? Even in the ALMS and LeMans the 911 (still all steel) can keep pretty close times to those exotic supercars that F builds. Of course the Ferraris use bigger engines, aluminum bodies, mid engines and cost much more,,,but they still only are fractions of a second faster than a Porsche..So how far outdated is Porsche?? I have a friend who collects Ferraris. My Turbo leaves his 360 Stradalle in the dust in a straight line. My GT3 corners better than his 430 and costs considerably less..By the way on his first 360 his electronics were so screwed up he would have to climb through the window to get into his car because the electronics on the door wouldn't allow it to open..8 years later the problem still exists.He is getting a 430 Scuderia and I would guess that it will be faster on the track than the GT3--it should be for $285K plus tax and licence. I would guess that if I spent $175K on my GT3 for upgrades I would be able to keep up though. You think?
    2nd,,I would imagine that a top of the line sports car (in cost) for Porsche will emerge after the Panamera in the form of a 2 door coupe. It will be a GT car similar to the 928 and share many parts from the Panamera. The 911 will still continue. This will give them the entry level Boxster/Cayman, 911 and an upper end GT machine...But I'm sure there will be some people who will complain that Porsche is doing something wrong again like making money on another iteration of an existing platform. Besides, would you pay $200K for a 911 that would beat a 430 Scuderia or Lamborgini? Not many people would. But IF you would, you ought to get your hands on a GT2, because that model will probably clean the Scuderias rear end..IMO



    Using your logic, then the car for you is the Corvette and the recently introduced GT-R.

    What you are missing is though Porsche continues to build sport cars that perform well, their image has suffered a great deal. As a result, Porsche are no longer coveted as they had been in the past. This has led to diminished values for all models. Certainly you can relate to this seeing you own a CGT.

    You may say that money is not an issue but it is a reflection of how society views a product. In other words, in the past Porsche used to be about performance exclusivity and reliability generating a cult of owners believing they owned something very special. Today, as several British and American car magazines have written about the modern Porsche "it seems like everyone owns one" they are ubiquitous". Porsche cars are nothing special but their profits are.


    If very few buyers can be found for a product then is it exclusive? Brands like the Italian trio find a handful of buyers every year, so they are exclusivity is based on failure to attract more than a number of wealthy individuals that would buy anything in order to show off.If a product is successful in the market place then it must be coveted and admired. Porsche is admired for the substance of its products and their ability to cope with real world performance and not for its snob appeal to a limited number of narcissists

    Re: Autoextremist on PAG...

    I don't agree with any of the bitter rubbish the so called journalist wrote. I don't see why the Porsche brand is devalued by introducing a lighting fast CTT. She is obviously not a sports car like 911, caymans, boxters etc but she is the best in 4x4's. Also remember that Porsche 4x4 are contributing to the bottom line, meaning giving Porsche funds to further develop there outstanding sportscars.

    Re: Autoextremist on PAG...

    Don't attack Ferrari owners or Ferrari because Porsche chose to make their car available to the masses. So far it is a brillant marketing move judging from Porsche profits.

    But do I need to remind you of the Hamilton Watch Company? I believe the author of the article was only pointing out the direction Porsche was taking and the risk it runs.

    Re: Autoextremist on PAG...

    nbergy..If the immage of Porsche is so tarnished, then why is it selling so many cars? The last 2 years have set records for Porsche. I know my CGT has dropped in value. My RS isn't worth the same as it was 6 months ago either. But what did everyone hear when everyone wanted a GT3 or an RS..Porsche isn't building enough of them...So what do you want. Porsche could produce lower volume cars like the RS and have everyone bitch that they can't get one..or they could build alot of them and have everyone bitch that the values have dropped? You can't have it both ways.
    Ferrari and Lambo could sell more cars for a while, but the values would drop because of supply and demand if they made too many. If the CGT was made at say 600 units the price wouldn't have been $440,000 it would have been like the Enzo at $700,000..That would have cut alot of buyers out of the market. You should be happy then that in 2008 there will be less 911's coming to the US. The price will go up for a new 911--there will be more demand--and used 911's will rise in value..This is good unless you are the one who wants a new 911 and can't get one.
    Thats all I'm saying..It is simplly supply and demand, you can't have high residual prices with alot of production and you can't keep the price of a new car low, with low production numbers. The immage of Porsche is as strong as ever for everyone except in the pruists mind!!

    Re: Autoextremist on PAG...

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Don't attack Ferrari owners or Ferrari because Porsche chose to make their car available to the masses. So far it is a brillant marketing move judging from Porsche profits.

    But do I need to remind you of the Hamilton Watch Company? I believe the author of the article was only pointing out the direction Porsche was taking and the risk it runs.


    I don't think that a sound brand is devalued through numbers sold. In Europe Mercedes sell cars like the A-class and B-class models to the "masses" but this has not devalued their more expensive S-class SL etc. Since you refer to watches look at a brand like Rolex. Widely sold, not the most expensive or "exclusive" but still a coveted brand all over the world. Porsche has never been exclusive in the sense of being affordable only to the few. 924s 944s etc. But all their models always performed above their specification. Sound engineering making a mockery of "exotic" designs , materials and all the hype that surrounds the so-called supercars. The reason people put very low mileages on their exoticas is not the fear of depreciation as some people wrote here earlier (what is really the worth of say $50-60k of depreciation to a milionaire?) but due to fear of them breaking down. In reality the fear of using is devaluing a product.

    Re: Autoextremist on PAG...

    Quote:
    GT2R said:
    nbergy..If the immage of Porsche is so tarnished, then why is it selling so many cars? The last 2 years have set records for Porsche. I know my CGT has dropped in value. My RS isn't worth the same as it was 6 months ago either. But what did everyone hear when everyone wanted a GT3 or an RS..Porsche isn't building enough of them...So what do you want. Porsche could produce lower volume cars like the RS and have everyone bitch that they can't get one..or they could build alot of them and have everyone bitch that the values have dropped? You can't have it both ways.
    Ferrari and Lambo could sell more cars for a while, but the values would drop because of supply and demand if they made too many. If the CGT was made at say 600 units the price wouldn't have been $440,000 it would have been like the Enzo at $700,000..That would have cut alot of buyers out of the market. You should be happy then that in 2008 there will be less 911's coming to the US. The price will go up for a new 911--there will be more demand--and used 911's will rise in value..This is good unless you are the one who wants a new 911 and can't get one.
    Thats all I'm saying..It is simplly supply and demand, you can't have high residual prices with alot of production and you can't keep the price of a new car low, with low production numbers. The immage of Porsche is as strong as ever for everyone except in the pruists mind!!



    Very well said and I totally agree!

    I love my 997S, and I don't care if there are 100,000 other 997 owners out there. It is a good price for the look, performance and handling that I'm getting. Ferrari and Lambo are more exotic and exclusive, but they are over-priced for their performance, and they will never be able to produce any models that can reach 100,000 units even if they try very hard.

    Re: Autoextremist on PAG...

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Don't attack Ferrari owners or Ferrari because Porsche chose to make their car available to the masses. So far it is a brillant marketing move judging from Porsche profits.

    But do I need to remind you of the Hamilton Watch Company? I believe the author of the article was only pointing out the direction Porsche was taking and the risk it runs.



    If Porsche wants to make the worlds fastest Pontiac Aztec let them. Likely they will sell eveyone of them. Even you bought one.

    But just what empirical market research data do you have that proves Porsches "image" has or will EVER been damaged?
    Blobally they have a expanding universe of customers that doesnt know the difference between a 906 and a fishing rod.

    Comparing Porsche and Ferrari for brand values is pretty ridiculous as no one really needs either. People mostly buy them for love. Of course there will always be label whores among buyers or those who compare arcane features or those who want bragging rights as to how much they paid, but in reality these cars are non essential love purchases.

    And at some point, maybe now, to be constantly jabbing at anyone about their preferred cars reduced $$ value crosses the line into becoming boorish, effete and obsessed.

    Enjoy any car you have, it could always be your last!

    Re: Autoextremist on PAG...

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    And at some point, maybe now, to be constantly jabbing at anyone about their preferred cars reduced $$ value crosses the line into becoming boorish, effete and obsessed.




    We are beginning to see more Starbucks Coffee houses here in Germany now. Thanks Jim for warning us about the effects of over-indulging in their products.

    Gee, who'd want to be classified as boorish, effete and obsessed?

    Re: Autoextremist on PAG...

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    And at some point, maybe now, to be constantly jabbing at anyone about their preferred cars reduced $$ value crosses the line into becoming boorish, effete and obsessed.




    We are beginning to see more Starbucks Coffee houses here in Germany now. Thanks Jim for warning us about the effects of over-indulging in their products.

    Gee, who'd want to be classified as boorish, effete and obsessed?



    Starbucks has crossed the Rhine? Certainly Hamburg and Dusselforf already have plenty of coffee shops where boulavardiers (and you know the German slang name for them!)parade by in their Porsche Tiptronic Cabrios.

    Re: Autoextremist on PAG...

    About brand immage!! I believe that for the last 8 years, Porsche has the best brand Immage and the Company is the one that more people in Germany want to work for than any other. So brand immage must still be pretty high in Germany and Europe. I would think that most of us would agree that owning a Porsche is more prestigeous than owning any car made in the USA, an Asian country or virtually any other country with the exception of Italy. I have the money to buy Italian cars and still choose to buy a Porsche. I have always looked at the owners of a Ferrari or Lambo (which are definately nice cars) as wanting to be noticed by driving their cars (this may be just my prejudiced opinion). I choose to buy a car that operates without having a mechanic living in my house and one that performs as well or better than anything else on the road. Looks are a personel preference..If you like the looks of a Lambo, F car, Landrover buy it..But don't say that Porsche has lost its edge or immage..That is just not true

    Re: Autoextremist on PAG...

    Jim apparently Porsche is concerned. They have limited the production of their true performance cars like the RS, GT2 and GT3. They could have sold many more of these cars which have high profit margins but chose not to do so to protect its waning image.

    Fritz wake up and smell the Starbucks coffee. Porsche is sniffing it now.

    Re: Autoextremist on PAG...

    Brand image:

    Ferrari, an expensive Fiat (parent company)

    Aston Martin, an expensive Ford (at least it used to be), now it's back to just an Aston Martin

    Lambo, an expensive VW (one could say Audi but VW owns Audi), but soon will be under Porsche

    Porsche, hmm, PORSCHE!!!!

    Hard to deny the facts.........

    Re: Autoextremist on PAG...

    Conceptually Porsche and Ferrari have differed in their approach to production automobiles from the outset, so I find these arguments pitting the marques against either other rather hollow. From the outset Porsche has always delivered a measure of practicality to its production cars that has never entered the Italian equation. The original 911 was a sporty 2+2 aimed at affulent professionals, many of whom had young families that the car had to accomodate. The 1950s racing pedigree was accomplished with light and agile cars with less HP than the competition which gave the production cars a patina that owners could vicariously enjoy behind the wheel. Ferrari, and later Lamborghini, never sought this clientele or image. If anything the influence of Mercedes Benz was more formative on Porsche's "performance w/ practicality" than the "over the top" formula coming from Italy appealing to magnates, royalty, and movie stars. For my part, Porsches current sports car offerings, top to bottom, represent a measure of success unheard of in the production car business. Porsche has retained throughout its model range the visual cues connecting the current models to its history while conforming to ever increasing environmental and safety regulations. All the while offering performance levels beyond all but a fraction of other automobiles along with sustainable everyday usage that is affordable to buyers of moderate affulence. Insofar as depreciation and "investment" qualities are concerned, I find this to be an unforunate perversion of the sports car ownership experience. If retention of value rather than the pleasure of driving are paramount to a prospective owner then the discussion is no longer about the intended purpose for which the automobile was created.

     
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