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Re: Nissan GT-R R35 vs Porsche 997 Turbo
Nick, the backend problem is merely a symptom of front end problems. The TT has a mere -0.4 deg camber on the front end. This is nowhere near what is require for any performance cornering. Track cars run -3.0 to -4.0 degrees camber in front, the GT3 and Gt3RS run -1.2 in the street setup. Only commuter cars run such little front camber. This simple adjustment eliminates a large amount of understeer, which in turn allows sharper turn-in without having to compensate with throttle oversteer. I and others have made this adjustment and the transformation is remarkable.
Re: Nissan GT-R R35 vs Porsche 997 Turbo
Not entirely true. Reviews of 997TT have only been negative when it's taken to the track. A function that it's not designed for.
Considering the 7:52 ring time (the **very best** of any car designed primarily to be a daily driver for the streets, until the excellent but heavy, big, and quite unattractive GTR comes along), it's obvious any criticisms were made IN COMPARISON to the very best track cars out there. My personal experience, at least at a lower, amateur level, confirms this: the tail end feels NO different from my 997 C2.
You can't expect the Turbo to have handling of GT3 or F430 on the track. On main streets USA, however, it's going to be a debate which car is best.
Considering the 7:52 ring time (the **very best** of any car designed primarily to be a daily driver for the streets, until the excellent but heavy, big, and quite unattractive GTR comes along), it's obvious any criticisms were made IN COMPARISON to the very best track cars out there. My personal experience, at least at a lower, amateur level, confirms this: the tail end feels NO different from my 997 C2.
You can't expect the Turbo to have handling of GT3 or F430 on the track. On main streets USA, however, it's going to be a debate which car is best.
Quote:
nberry said:
The loose backend of the TT was its downfall. From the beginning, car reviewers have identified this as a problem with the 997TT.
Re: Nissan GT-R R35 vs Porsche 997 Turbo
Dont know why everyone is getting so excited about the comments on the GT-R being better than turbo I am sure it is a great car but personally wouldnt buy one despite price benefit over Turbo as dont like the look of exterior or interior and it is not clearl it is as good as that supercar daily driver. Also it being good doesnt make the turbo bad. The 996 Turbo was criticised for being too neutral and the 997 is more frisky at the cost of a few seconds on the track so what ! If you want a track car by a GT3RS or as I am doing a Scuderia neither of which will better the turbo as a daily driver in rain , snow , wind etc.The real test for the GT-R for me at least is on the poor road surfaces in Britain. Also noticed the trubo on the track was tiptronic which on a track will never compete against the paddle shift or manual box.
Re: Nissan GT-R R35 vs Porsche 997 Turbo
Go ahead and compare street cars all you want; or do something else to waste your time. 
I just did 250 miles yesterday in my TT.
In traffic, on a clean-green interstate, on a rural highway, in crummy city traffic: it's simply the best friggin' car on the road. Not only that, because of the power under your right foot, it's the best Porsche made for driving: period.
After a few months of ownership (traded in my 997S) it makes me wonder why Porsche sells NA road cars (no kidding, think about it).
When I got to where I was going and I didn't even want to get out of the car. It's a dream come true.
Rave over.
I just did 250 miles yesterday in my TT.
In traffic, on a clean-green interstate, on a rural highway, in crummy city traffic: it's simply the best friggin' car on the road. Not only that, because of the power under your right foot, it's the best Porsche made for driving: period.
After a few months of ownership (traded in my 997S) it makes me wonder why Porsche sells NA road cars (no kidding, think about it).
When I got to where I was going and I didn't even want to get out of the car. It's a dream come true.
Rave over.
Re: Nissan GT-R R35 vs Porsche 997 Turbo
I agree with NMD, how many cars are out there that are comfortable fast and can be used on daily basis while they can keep up with some of the most exotic cars; Lambo's and Ferrari.....etc. and wear the badge TURBO. I don't care what you drive no one knocks the 997TT unless they have something missing from..... 
Track it all you want but this car was not designed for the track while it still does a pretty decent job as a street car on a track
Track it all you want but this car was not designed for the track while it still does a pretty decent job as a street car on a track
Re: Nissan GT-R R35 vs Porsche 997 Turbo
Quote:
MMD said:
Go ahead and compare street cars all you want; or do something else to waste your time.
I just did 250 miles yesterday in my TT.
In traffic, on a clean-green interstate, on a rural highway, in crummy city traffic: it's simply the best friggin' car on the road. Not only that, because of the power under your right foot, it's the best Porsche made for driving: period.
After a few months of ownership (traded in my 997S) it makes me wonder why Porsche sells NA road cars (no kidding, think about it).
When I got to where I was going and I didn't even want to get out of the car. It's a dream come true.
Rave over.
What he said!
Re: Nissan GT-R R35 vs Porsche 997 Turbo
Quote:
edz61 said:
I agree with NMD, how many cars are out there that are comfortable fast and can be used on daily basis while they can keep up with some of the most exotic cars; ...
My '08 C6 certainly can and if you even need more power get the Z06.
Re: Nissan GT-R R35 vs Porsche 997 Turbo
Quote:
ADias said:Quote:
edz61 said:
I agree with NMD, how many cars are out there that are comfortable fast and can be used on daily basis while they can keep up with some of the most exotic cars; ...
My '08 C6 certainly can and if you even need more power get the Z06.
LOL, rainy/snow/cold day here in Philly. I blew by the limping C6 in this weather.
Re: Nissan GT-R R35 vs Porsche 997 Turbo
Quote:
ADias said:Quote:
edz61 said:
I agree with NMD, how many cars are out there that are comfortable fast and can be used on daily basis while they can keep up with some of the most exotic cars; ...
My '08 C6 certainly can and if you even need more power get the Z06.
But a vette is not in the league of the porsche despite it's awsome performance. I am a car enthusiast and appreciate all hi performance cars including vettes but on the streets in Southern CA no one gives vettes the attention they give 997TT's not even close
Re: Nissan GT-R R35 vs Porsche 997 Turbo
Quote:
MMD said:Quote:
ADias said:
My '08 C6 certainly can and if you even need more power get the Z06.
LOL
Yes, somebody will always voice the opinion that the GM Corvette is equivalent to the Porsche Turbo.
Now that that's out of the way... .
Out of whose way?
You guys can continue to be delusional for what I care. You have clearly never driven the new Vette, because if you had you would not babbling to the wind.
I grant you that a Turbo will have better traction in bad weather. I know, I used to drive a C4.
Re: Nissan GT-R R35 vs Porsche 997 Turbo
Quote:
edz61 said:Quote:
ADias said:Quote:
edz61 said:
I agree with NMD, how many cars are out there that are comfortable fast and can be used on daily basis while they can keep up with some of the most exotic cars; ...
My '08 C6 certainly can and if you even need more power get the Z06.
But a vette is not in the league of the porsche despite it's awsome performance. I am a car enthusiast and appreciate all hi performance cars including vettes but on the streets in Southern CA no one gives vettes the attention they give 997TT's not even close
Many owners will not mention it but they will choose the 997 variants over the Vette
because you will never look as wealthy in a Vette.
Re: Nissan GT-R R35 vs Porsche 997 Turbo
Awwww Sheeeet, now the Vette thing.
Okay my reasons for not preferring it over TT:
GM interior.
Exhaust sounds like NASCAR. I like F1.
Has a muscle-car heritage which I don't like.
Styling looks too dramatic for me.
Styling is "messy" because it tries to incorporate too many cues from past models while it tries to look trendy.
Lacks true GT comfort compared to Porsche.
Not boasting here: I got the money and I wasn't looking for a "good value." (BTW, they are both an equally good waste of money)
FWIW, I personally don't know anybody who would buy a Porsche to make themselves "look wealthy." A few lesser inspired guys I do know might buy one because it's "the best" and that's what they're used to.
Okay my reasons for not preferring it over TT:
GM interior.
Exhaust sounds like NASCAR. I like F1.
Has a muscle-car heritage which I don't like.
Styling looks too dramatic for me.
Styling is "messy" because it tries to incorporate too many cues from past models while it tries to look trendy.
Lacks true GT comfort compared to Porsche.
Not boasting here: I got the money and I wasn't looking for a "good value." (BTW, they are both an equally good waste of money)
FWIW, I personally don't know anybody who would buy a Porsche to make themselves "look wealthy." A few lesser inspired guys I do know might buy one because it's "the best" and that's what they're used to.
Re: Nissan GT-R R35 vs Porsche 997 Turbo
Quote:
eclou said:
Nick, the backend problem is merely a symptom of front end problems. The TT has a mere -0.4 deg camber on the front end. This is nowhere near what is require for any performance cornering. Track cars run -3.0 to -4.0 degrees camber in front, the GT3 and Gt3RS run -1.2 in the street setup. Only commuter cars run such little front camber. This simple adjustment eliminates a large amount of understeer, which in turn allows sharper turn-in without having to compensate with throttle oversteer. I and others have made this adjustment and the transformation is remarkable.
Your comments make sense. However, if that is the case why would Porsche engineers set the TT up with that configuration knowing it would create an oversteer problem in performance situations?
I suppose for daily driving, an understeer problem is safer than an oversteer problem.
Jan 18, 2008 5:39:19 PM
- SpeedYellow997S
- Newbie
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- Loc: Los Angeles
- Posts: 7, Gallery
- Registered on: Jan 19, 2005
- Reply to: Pentium
Re: Nissan GT-R R35 vs Porsche 997 Turbo
+1 Grant
Been driving my 2008 Turbo for 3 months now. The stock setup is for street driving and tire wear only, most Turbo owner don't really take their cars to the limit. The ones who do probably know about the camber adjustment already, basically only the magazine folks take a stock setup Turbo to the track.
Comparing to my C2S, Turbo suspension is quite a bit softer and it's more stable through corners. However, Turbo steer and change direction slower than C2S due to the 4WD system and some people might call this "understeer".
The rear end really don't give up at all until you reach the limit, it's really the tire patch not contacting the ground surface. I would say that it's a suspension setup issue, not a suspension design problem. If you add 1 to 1.5 negative camber to the rear, problem solved but the rear tires will wear much quicker. If you add negative camber to the front, this actually increase steering.
Been driving my 2008 Turbo for 3 months now. The stock setup is for street driving and tire wear only, most Turbo owner don't really take their cars to the limit. The ones who do probably know about the camber adjustment already, basically only the magazine folks take a stock setup Turbo to the track.
Comparing to my C2S, Turbo suspension is quite a bit softer and it's more stable through corners. However, Turbo steer and change direction slower than C2S due to the 4WD system and some people might call this "understeer".
The rear end really don't give up at all until you reach the limit, it's really the tire patch not contacting the ground surface. I would say that it's a suspension setup issue, not a suspension design problem. If you add 1 to 1.5 negative camber to the rear, problem solved but the rear tires will wear much quicker. If you add negative camber to the front, this actually increase steering.
Re: Nissan GT-R R35 vs Porsche 997 Turbo
Grant (& eclou) , thanks for the technical expertise. Nick, as Grant has mentioned, I think you might have misread eclou's writing. Benign, less negative front camber, the way Porsche sets up the Turbo, REDUCES oversteer, not exacerbates it.
For others at my non-pro level, this is my favorite short discussion of toe in, caster, camber: http://www.ozebiz.com.au/racetech/theory/align.html
What I've noticed is that for every suspension change, read the part about toe in for example, there will be some positive's, AND THERE WILL BE NEGATIVE'S. The Porsche Turbo is the way it is because, I bet, Porsche wanted it THAT way, EXACTLY: The number one supercar daily driver in the world
. It doesn't mean advanced level drivers like eclou can't modify it to their liking. It does mean those blindly critical of its performance best look elsewhere: As an example, GT3, a better track car with low ride height, bone rattling suspension, and low torque, high strung engine.
Kidding aside, from the article:
"While maintaining the ideal camber angle throughout the suspension travel assures that the tire is operating at peak efficiency, designers often configure the front suspensions of passenger cars so that the wheels gain positive camber as they are deflected upward. The purpose of such a design is to reduce the cornering power of the front end relative to the rear end, so that the car will understeer in steadily greater amounts up to the limit of adhesion. Understeer is inherently a much safer and more stable condition than oversteer, and thus is preferable for cars intended for the public."
Nick, as Grant has mentioned, I think you might have misread eclou's writing. Benign, less negative front camber, the way Porsche sets up the Turbo, REDUCES oversteer, not exacerbates it.
For others at my non-pro level, this is my favorite short discussion of toe in, caster, camber: http://www.ozebiz.com.au/racetech/theory/align.html
What I've noticed is that for every suspension change, read the part about toe in for example, there will be some positive's, AND THERE WILL BE NEGATIVE'S. The Porsche Turbo is the way it is because, I bet, Porsche wanted it THAT way, EXACTLY: The number one supercar daily driver in the world
. It doesn't mean advanced level drivers like eclou can't modify it to their liking. It does mean those blindly critical of its performance best look elsewhere: As an example, GT3, a better track car with low ride height, bone rattling suspension, and low torque, high strung engine.
Kidding aside, from the article:
"While maintaining the ideal camber angle throughout the suspension travel assures that the tire is operating at peak efficiency, designers often configure the front suspensions of passenger cars so that the wheels gain positive camber as they are deflected upward. The purpose of such a design is to reduce the cornering power of the front end relative to the rear end, so that the car will understeer in steadily greater amounts up to the limit of adhesion. Understeer is inherently a much safer and more stable condition than oversteer, and thus is preferable for cars intended for the public."
Re: Nissan GT-R R35 vs Porsche 997 Turbo
Quote:
SlvSurfer said:Quote:
MMD said:
Exhaust sounds like NASCAR. I like F1.
What does the TT sound like? Nothing to close to an F1 car..
Correct, I just like high-pitched whines as opposed to a booming throaty V8.
A Carrera GT revving is orgasmic.
I like my 997TT because it's quieter than you'd expect and doesn't scare the sh*t outta the other driver's I'm passing.
here's something to listen to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XEZwoTvN18
Re: Nissan GT-R R35 vs Porsche 997 Turbo
While we are the topics of happy rear end, thought I should also point out that the single review in major US mags that complains about off throttle oversteer in the Turbo, the one in Car and Driver I believe, also criticizes the Porsche GT3 for the same thing.
So I think this is simply a "desirable trait" that are particularly more prominent in cars whose engines hang behind the rear axle, that makes ownership of all 911's so much fun, and that even amateurs like me know about going in? Otherwise, we would be looking for mid-engine cars, no? Never owned a 996 but I've read Porsche made it more neutral and people did NOT like that?
Speaking of mid-engine, remember the Audi R8? Another "Porsche killer" that we don't even talk about anymore, and a major US mag (I know, it's only a mag) recently even gave it the dreaded soul-LESS label! After the honeymoon period, my prediction is that the GTR will suffer the same fate on this board.
Comparisons that such and such cars kill the Turbo make me happy. It shows while this car is far from perfect, it's quite relevant & still resides at the head of its class. Nick (a closet P-phile
until proven otherwise) wouldn't be posting here so frequently otherwise.
So I think this is simply a "desirable trait"
that are particularly more prominent in cars whose engines hang behind the rear axle, that makes ownership of all 911's so much fun, and that even amateurs like me know about going in? Otherwise, we would be looking for mid-engine cars, no? Never owned a 996 but I've read Porsche made it more neutral and people did NOT like that?
Speaking of mid-engine, remember the Audi R8? Another "Porsche killer" that we don't even talk about anymore, and a major US mag (I know, it's only a mag) recently even gave it the dreaded soul-LESS label! After the honeymoon period, my prediction is that the GTR will suffer the same fate on this board.
Comparisons that such and such cars kill the Turbo make me happy. It shows while this car is far from perfect, it's quite relevant & still resides at the head of its class. Nick (a closet P-phile
until proven otherwise) wouldn't be posting here so frequently otherwise.
Re: Nissan GT-R R35 vs Porsche 997 Turbo
The limited camber of the 997tt causes initial understeer, so then you either
1)crank the steering wheel over more and try to throttle thru the turn
2)lift like a newbie
both of which then give you snap oversteer in a rear heavy car. Dialing in more neg camber will eliminate alot of the initial understeer and allow drivers to more smoothly initiate and complete the turn with less steering and throttle inputs - you get a much smoother turn. Watch the video in my sig and you'll see no jerky fishtailing high speed antics when you bump the front to -1.2 camber
1)crank the steering wheel over more and try to throttle thru the turn
2)lift like a newbie
both of which then give you snap oversteer in a rear heavy car. Dialing in more neg camber will eliminate alot of the initial understeer and allow drivers to more smoothly initiate and complete the turn with less steering and throttle inputs - you get a much smoother turn. Watch the video in my sig and you'll see no jerky fishtailing high speed antics when you bump the front to -1.2 camber
Re: Nissan GT-R R35 vs Porsche 997 Turbo
I hear TTs driving around here all the time and it doesn't sound that nice.. Definitely not a strong point of the car.
In the defense of the TT, other than the looks and sound, I think the rest of the characteristics such as performance are very good.
In the defense of the TT, other than the looks and sound, I think the rest of the characteristics such as performance are very good.
Re: Nissan GT-R R35 vs Porsche 997 Turbo
As much as I love the 997 Turbo, I agree that for me at least sound is the number one problem with the car. Even my 997 C2 makes "better" noise: most definitely louder and more "bubbly," a lump thump thump sound instead of the smooth and continuous note of the Turbo. I know this well because I park in an enclosed garage and get a taste of my own exhaust sound daily. I am afraid that someone (Stradale?) is right when he says it sounds like a vacuum cleaner.
But then MMD loves it, so this is a matter of preference. I would guess though that if we were to take a poll, a majority of Turbo owners would vote for a different exhaust note.
Does anyone have a technical explanation as to why the sound is so different from NA to Turbo?
daily. I am afraid that someone (Stradale?) is right when he says it sounds like a vacuum cleaner.But then MMD loves it, so this is a matter of preference. I would guess though that if we were to take a poll, a majority of Turbo owners would vote for a different exhaust note.
Does anyone have a technical explanation as to why the sound is so different from NA to Turbo?
Re: Nissan GT-R R35 vs Porsche 997 Turbo
eclou,
Thanks for the clarification. I've been told (AND experienced) once or twice that high speed foot-on-gas-pedal corner entry, leading to understeer, leading to fear-induced increase of steering angle and right foot lift, is the beginning of a happy rear end and an unhappy ending for many a racers.
I am sure this is the reason instructors always tell their students slow-in fast-out and to brake into corner.
Physics dictates that off throttle oversteer is worse with a rear engine car. That's why I am puzzled at the remark by the pro drivers at Car & Driver. Surely they must have known this is a "desirable" trait of 911's?
Thanks for the clarification. I've been told (AND experienced
) once or twice that high speed foot-on-gas-pedal corner entry, leading to understeer, leading to fear-induced increase of steering angle and right foot lift, is the beginning of a happy rear end and an unhappy ending for many a racers.
I am sure this is the reason instructors always tell their students slow-in fast-out and to brake into corner.
Physics dictates that off throttle oversteer is worse with a rear engine car. That's why I am puzzled at the remark by the pro drivers at Car & Driver. Surely they must have known this is a "desirable" trait
of 911's?
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