Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Thank God we have choices! - Page1

Dec 12, 2007 5:12:57 AM

cookie monster: Senior; Loc: US , United States; Posts: 564, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 8, 2005

PDK rollout on 997

Judging from all sources, it looks like PDK is due together with 997 facelift to be rolled out September next year. If that's the case, would you all think that this box will borrow much from the current S tronic or DSG technology from AUDI And VW? Would tiptronic boxes be completely replaced?

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Dec 12, 2007 7:46:00 AM

MarekN: Pilot; Loc: Czech Republic; Posts: 409, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 7, 2006; Reply to: cookie monster

Re: PDK rollout on 997

Yes, I think this situation will mean there is no place for tiptronic.

The new box will be an evolution of the current systems and will strive to be better and more efficient, if for no lesser reason than to have a one up on the competition.

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Dec 12, 2007 10:23:09 AM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12680, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: MarekN

Re: PDK rollout on 997

PDK is definitely the substitute fot the tiptronic, though price for it will surely be twice as high...

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Dec 12, 2007 2:19:13 PM

Greentree: Co-Pilot; Loc: Texas, USA , United States; Posts: 151, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 1, 2007; Reply to: Rossi

Re: PDK rollout on 997

Does this mean there will be three available transmissions --the manual, the Tiptronic, and the PDK?

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Dec 12, 2007 2:40:49 PM

OAB: Co-Pilot; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 155, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 16, 2003; Reply to: Greentree

Re: PDK rollout on 997

Quote:
Greentree said:
Does this mean there will be three available transmissions --the manual, the Tiptronic, and the PDK?

Over the entire model range yes but not in the same car. PDK will replace Tiptronic.

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Dec 12, 2007 2:48:52 PM

Turbo4ever: Senior; Loc: HK , Hong Kong; Posts: 723, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 13, 2007; Reply to: OAB

Re: PDK rollout on 997

I am still not sure Porsche gonna release PDK for MY09.

Have not seen any spy pics yet.

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Dec 12, 2007 3:17:04 PM

Nugget: Co-Pilot; Loc: Houston Texas USA , United States; Posts: 237, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 29, 2006; Reply to: Turbo4ever

Re: PDK rollout on 997

Just out of curiosity, how would you expect to be able to tell from a spy pic if the car had a PDK transmission?

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Dec 12, 2007 3:51:09 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: Nugget

Re: PDK rollout on 997

Just to "confirm," I'm 99% certain I read in Excellence or Panorama that Tiptronic will no longer be available when optional PDK is a reality.

Seems odd though that a more expensive and "exotic" tranny will replace the Tiptronic which is usually ordered so the wives can drive the car.

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Dec 12, 2007 5:08:41 PM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: MMD

Re: PDK rollout on 997

I think one of the ways to find out if PDK is actually on its way is if PAG registers any patent with the US Patent Office for the PDK. Anyone know if PAG has done this?

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Dec 12, 2007 6:45:13 PM

Boxster Coupe GTS: Rennteam Master; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 5884, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 23, 2005; Reply to: easy_rider911

Multi-plate clutch for double clutch transmission

Multi-plate clutch, particularly for a double clutch transmission...

Inventor: Hoebel, et al.
Date Issued: October 24, 2006
Application: 11/202,073
Filed: August 12, 2005
Inventors: Peter Hoebel; Michael Sternberg
Assignee: Dr. Ing. h.c.F. Porsche Aktiengesellschaft

Abstract:

"A multi-plate clutch, particularly for a dual clutch transmission, has at least one clutch housing alternately holds externally and internally toothed plate disks, a hub arranged at the end face on the clutch housing. The hub has a central opening for receiving a gear shaft and openings disposed to reduce weight. Additional openings are provided in the lateral surface of the clutch basket, with at least a portion of the openings distributed over at least a section of the configured as triangular recesses."

Multi-plate-clutch_Patent-link

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Dec 12, 2007 7:31:56 PM

Greentree: Co-Pilot; Loc: Texas, USA , United States; Posts: 151, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 1, 2007; Reply to: Boxster Coupe GTS

Re: Multi-plate clutch for double clutch transmission

Hmm, no Tiptronic for the 911? Just the PDK and the manual? Somehow, from a marketing standpoint, that doesn't make sense. Many women and some men would refuse to drive a PDK equipped car. It would be too new, too unfamiliar. I rather suspect the PDK will be offered much like the PCCB: a very expensive option.

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Dec 12, 2007 8:22:11 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: Greentree

Re: Multi-plate clutch for double clutch transmission

Quote:
Greentree said:
Hmm, no Tiptronic for the 911? Just the PDK and the manual? Somehow, from a marketing standpoint, that doesn't make sense. Many women and some men would refuse to drive a PDK equipped car. It would be too new, too unfamiliar. I rather suspect the PDK will be offered much like the PCCB: a very expensive option.

I disagree. PDK can be driven in automatic mode, just like Tip, but better performance (no slipping like torque-converter). I do agree that it will be an expensive option though...

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Dec 12, 2007 8:33:39 PM

Dave63: Junior; Loc: Oregon; Posts: 104, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 8, 2006; Reply to: Grant

PDK no slouch......

I predict that in time to come that the PDK will be VERY popular, just as Ferrari sells more of the paddle shift transmission than it does manual tranny. It will be worth the wait and an exemplary transmission.

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Dec 12, 2007 9:56:13 PM

Joost: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Dordrecht , Netherlands; Posts: 8054, Gallery; Registered on: May 3, 2004; Reply to: Dave63

Re: PDK no slouch......

Wow, sounds interesting. If you read on carefully, the patent seems to care about the weightsaving mainly:

Quote:
...he object of the invention is to provide additional weight saving measures in a clutch housing...

The weight saving should come down to 30%:

Quote:
...With this weight reduction, the mass moments of inertia can be reduced by up to 30% compared to a clutch housing structure without recesses...

I can already see the press releases in the style of the PCCC (clutch on the Carrera GT, of which the small diameter made for some exceptionally low placement of the engine and therefore low centre of gravity of the car)
-Joost-

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Dec 13, 2007 12:45:42 AM

Turbo4ever: Senior; Loc: HK , Hong Kong; Posts: 723, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 13, 2007; Reply to: Nugget

Re: PDK rollout on 997

Quote:
Nugget said:
Just out of curiosity, how would you expect to be able to tell from a spy pic if the car had a PDK transmission?

I mean interior spy pics. There would be paddles behind the steering wheel.

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Dec 13, 2007 10:04:21 PM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12680, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Dave63

Re: PDK no slouch......

Quote:
Dave63 said:
I predict that in time to come that the PDK will be VERY popular, just as Ferrari sells more of the paddle shift transmission than it does manual tranny. It will be worth the wait and an exemplary transmission.

Agreed!

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Dec 14, 2007 1:36:36 AM

Greentree: Co-Pilot; Loc: Texas, USA , United States; Posts: 151, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 1, 2007; Reply to: Rossi

Re: PDK no slouch......

I was in stop and go traffic for several miles tonight. You know, start off in first, go a few car lengths, put in the clutch and stop... Over and over...

What's the PDK going to be like in that situation? A lot of bumping and jerking? After all, there is no torque converter and clutches have just two states: engaged and disengaged.

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Dec 14, 2007 9:07:03 AM

The Groom: Expert; Loc: EU; Posts: 1779, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 23, 2005; Reply to: Greentree

Re: PDK no slouch......

If you know what the slipping point is, a computer can, too.

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Dec 14, 2007 12:28:11 PM

Ed J: Pilot; Loc: London; Posts: 407, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 4, 2004; Reply to: Greentree

Re: PDK no slouch......

Quote:
Greentree said:
I was in stop and go traffic for several miles tonight. You know, start off in first, go a few car lengths, put in the clutch and stop... Over and over...

What's the PDK going to be like in that situation? A lot of bumping and jerking? After all, there is no torque converter and clutches have just two states: engaged and disengaged.

Suggest you try a DSG transmission in a VW. Although the Porsche - I'm sure - will be a better version, they will essentially be the same. The DSG I had in an Audi TT about 4 years ago was very good actually.

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Dec 14, 2007 5:30:06 PM

Modrocket_stereo: Veteran; Loc: Chicago; Posts: 1178, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 8, 2003; Reply to: Ed J

Re: PDK no slouch......

I am down with PDK. Give it to me!

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Dec 14, 2007 9:51:52 PM

Le Chef: Veteran; Loc: Chicago , United States; Posts: 1059, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 3, 2003; Reply to: Modrocket_stereo

Thank God we have choices!

I've driven Ferrari's F1, Aston's whatever it's called, Maserati's Cambiocorsa, DSG and they're all horrible jerky affairs that take the pleasure out of driving.

If you want an automatic go drive a Mercedes or Lexus and get over any kind of idea that you might be driving a sports car.

But why bother? The clutch on the 997 is as light as a Honda Civic's. And if that's too heavy for you I suggest you spend the money from the PDK option on some sessions with a trainer at the gym.

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Dec 14, 2007 10:25:57 PM

John H: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cheshire, UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 7682, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 20, 2005; Reply to: Le Chef

Re: Thank God we have choices!

Quote:
Le Chef said:
If you want an automatic go drive a Mercedes or Lexus and get over any kind of idea that you might be driving a sports car.

As one who once owned a Lexus SC430 and has just handed back a Merc S Class loaner, you are right on the money.

The epitome of a sports car is the involvement you get with a manual box. Take away your left foot and you become a passenger.

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Dec 14, 2007 10:40:35 PM

The Groom: Expert; Loc: EU; Posts: 1779, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 23, 2005; Reply to: John H

Re: Thank God we have choices!

Synchromesh, power steering, hydraulic brakes, e-Gas, ABS/ESP, PASM, all make you a passenger. Bring back the 1885 Benz!

All those innovations free your attention and let you focus on more important matters. Same goes for automated manual gearboxes.

What you call the epitome of a sports car, I call the epitome of an obsolete, soulless, painful econobox.

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Dec 14, 2007 10:51:27 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: The Groom

Re: Thank God we have choices!

Quote:
The Groom said:
Synchromesh, power steering, hydraulic brakes, e-Gas, ABS/ESP, PASM, all make you a passenger. Bring back the 1885 Benz!

That would turn us all into pedestrians.

There were no gas stations in 1885.

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Dec 15, 2007 11:01:10 AM

John H: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cheshire, UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 7682, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 20, 2005; Reply to: The Groom

Re: Thank God we have choices!

Quote:
The Groom said:
Synchromesh, power steering, hydraulic brakes, e-Gas, ABS/ESP, PASM, all make you a passenger. Bring back the 1885 Benz!

All those innovations free your attention and let you focus on more important matters. Same goes for automated manual gearboxes.

What you call the epitome of a sports car, I call the epitome of an obsolete, soulless, painful econobox.

The term 'automated manual' appears oxymoronic.

The items of engineering advancement you list above apply more, in the main, to measures of improved safety than driving skill and technique.

I wouldn't mind the lack of synchromesh too much - I still have to double de-clutch and heel & toe with my '67 Lotus Elan. Factors still applicable to extracting maximum satisfaction from my 997S during spirited driving..

I also use Steptronic on my BMW 8-Series.

The point I was agreeing with and, of course, it's only my opinion, is that PURE INVOLVEMENT is only achievable with a manual box AND a clutch.

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Dec 20, 2007 7:51:06 AM

cookie monster: Senior; Loc: US , United States; Posts: 564, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 8, 2005; Reply to: Ed J

Re: PDK no slouch......

Quote:
Ed J said:
Quote:
Greentree said:
I was in stop and go traffic for several miles tonight. You know, start off in first, go a few car lengths, put in the clutch and stop... Over and over...

What's the PDK going to be like in that situation? A lot of bumping and jerking? After all, there is no torque converter and clutches have just two states: engaged and disengaged.

Suggest you try a DSG transmission in a VW. Although the Porsche - I'm sure - will be a better version, they will essentially be the same. The DSG I had in an Audi TT about 4 years ago was very good actually.

The new AUDI TT's S tronic DSG is very fast and very efficient. Only problem for the WIVES would be that on hills... the car tends to roll back which is quite different from the currrent torque converter tip s which doesn't roll back. However, the AUDI TT is pretty much an auto. It would be hard to imagine 997 being practical and an everyday supercar catering to mass to take out auto/tiptronic completely. I imagine the new PDK is simply another term for a borrowed Stronic from AUDI and DSG from VW... basically a better version of tiptronic catering to wives. They can't afford not to cater to less engaged drivers?

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Dec 21, 2007 8:23:43 PM

Jim48: Senior; Loc: Virginia, USA; Posts: 639, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 24, 2005; Reply to: MMD

Re: PDK rollout on 997

Quote:
MMD said:
Just to "confirm," I'm 99% certain I read in Excellence or Panorama that Tiptronic will no longer be available when optional PDK is a reality.

Seems odd though that a more expensive and "exotic" tranny will replace the Tiptronic which is usually ordered so the wives can drive the car.

Great point. Why not offer all the options, if they can do it profitably? I say "profitably" as Porsche will want to continue to make a buck. My guess is that the PDK will be at such a higher price that it will, at first, include enough of a margin to take care of any warranty costs.

Just a guess. Also, I think they will wait until the world-wide global economic jitters are over. But maybe there are really no jitters outside of the US and the UK.

Jim

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