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    Nov 21, 2007 9:02:24 PM

    fritz
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    fritz
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    Reply to: cannga

    Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

    Quote:
    cannga said:
    What you mentioned are more or less considered good changes, at least for the more sporty-oriented crowd. I think RC is implying that changes are for the worse: "was."

    >>>Porsche may change something very substantial on the 997 Turbo facelift, something which was always one of the major sales arguments to buy a 911 Turbo.
    >>>>>

    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    Quote:
    RC said:
    Yes, the facelift is rumoured to come next year but there is also another rumour following it and I hope it isn't true. I can't go into details (yet) but only one hint: Porsche may change something very substantial on the 997 Turbo facelift, something which was always one of the major sales arguments to buy a 911 Turbo. We'll see...I hope our sources are wrong, it wouldn't be the first time.



    I hate it when you this.

    Can you give us a hint? Is it related to the engine or something else Maybe it is not going to be as wide or maybe the rear seats will be taken out to save weight? Maybe it will involve eliminating the AWD?





    Eliminating the turbochargers, maybe?

    Nov 21, 2007 10:13:07 PM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Yes, the facelift is rumoured to come next year but there is also another rumour following it and I hope it isn't true. I can't go into details (yet) but only one hint: Porsche may change something very substantial on the 997 Turbo facelift, something which was always one of the major sales arguments to buy a 911 Turbo. We'll see...I hope our sources are wrong, it wouldn't be the first time.






    From my point of view Porsche is doing far too many facelifts these days. Ordering a Porsche is, today, accompanied by many thoughts about when the next FL might be due and whether postponing the order might be a wise decision...

    However, in case of the 997TT a FL might make sense indeed...

    Nov 21, 2007 10:15:20 PM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: KresoF1

    Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    -Production cost(same basic components as DI engine in facelifted 997CS)
    -much lower CO2 emission because of DI
    -new power and torque delivery-much more linear
    -new engine lighter then old one, PDK heavier then TIP, combined it meens same weight for PDK version of facelifted 997 Turbo
    -old 3.6L not suitable for DI

    These are reasons(or could be) for new 3.8L engine in facelifted 997 Turbo



    You forgot to mention a little detail: the only valid reason from your list is the first (margin improvement). The other aspects will just be used to hide the true reason from the public

    Nov 21, 2007 10:40:05 PM

    Turbo4ever
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

    i still dont think the old block gonna go, there are still some new stuffs could be upgrade on it, but if thats what Porsche going to do, thats mean thats the end of the old block and we have heard quite a lot rms problem with it on the GT3 already. so my bet is they gonna come up with a better engine. seriously we are talking about GT2/3/RS/TT. People willing to buy those cars are comparing them with Ferrari, Lambo etc. do you think they gonna put a cheap and less reliable engine inside?

    Nov 21, 2007 10:42:56 PM

    WBH
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

    Anecdotally, sounds like surprisingly higher incidence of RMS/reliability issues w/997GT3 (vs 996GT3) ....perhaps the originally robust motor template has been over-stressed already????...and P warranty repair costs are impacting profit margins....perhaps factors P is considering as it plans future advances/changes vs other existing motor templates....

    Nov 21, 2007 11:22:38 PM

    nberry Online
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    Reply to: Alex_997TT

    Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

    Is a Supercharger cleaner burning than the Turbocharger?

    Nov 22, 2007 2:12:02 AM

    chuckd
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

    I think that Porsche will put a system in to stop modifications, so there will be no way of increasing horsepower.

    I always thought that was a great selling point of the TT: Increased horsepower potential!

    Nov 22, 2007 3:10:28 AM

    Dock (Atlanta)
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    Reply to: chuckd

    Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

    Quote:
    chuckd said:
    I think that Porsche will put a system in to stop modifications, so there will be no way of increasing horsepower.



    I agree.

    Nov 22, 2007 2:43:29 PM

    mp
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:

    However, in case of the 997TT a FL might make sense indeed...



    Yes, we all know how disappointed you are with the 997tt.

    IMO, it not only is a major improvement over the 996tt but is hardly in need of a FL. Still the best in its class.

    Life is too short to be waiting for the next best thing. Most of us only keep our vehicles 2-3 years anyway.

    RC seems to enjoy teasing us with partial "inside" knowledge. Either share it fully with us or wait. Some on this forum will lose sleep waiting for full disclosure.

    What really distinguishes the tt from its competition? IMO only these:

    1. 4 seats
    2. turbo
    3. daily driver

    Nov 22, 2007 5:07:43 PM

    WBH
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    Reply to: mp

    Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

    Quote:
    mp said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:

    However, in case of the 997TT a FL might make sense indeed...



    Yes, we all know how disappointed you are with the 997tt.

    IMO, it not only is a major improvement over the 996tt but is hardly in need of a FL. Still the best in its class.

    Life is too short to be waiting for the next best thing. Most of us only keep our vehicles 2-3 years anyway.

    RC seems to enjoy teasing us with partial "inside" knowledge. Either share it fully with us or wait. Some on this forum will lose sleep waiting for full disclosure.

    What really distinguishes the tt from its competition? IMO only these:

    1. 4 seats
    2. turbo
    3. daily driver





    Not sure how "distinguishing" those characteristics are....

    4 seats are a joke....rear seats don't fit anyone but midgets...and not sure how crashworthy are those vestigial rear seat structures/head restraints for human use....and any animals/inanimate objects kept back there are simply intra-car missles waiting to launch...

    Turbo is poss negative....lag/nonlinearity issues vs a high-tq NA motor...

    Daily driver....ignore passive safety and IMO any new F is more daily-driveable (better ground clearance; fuel tank capac; size of trunk; Bluetooth/iPod..and equal reliability)...and, if incl active/passive safety, CL63 is arguably ultimate daily commuting missle anyway....

    Suspect coming CA GT and SL63 Blk are forcing P to speed up its lethargic R&D pace and re-consider pricing/lease terms vs competition.....net, net great times for consumers in a slowing economy with active competition among mfrs....

    Nov 22, 2007 5:40:06 PM

    Crash
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    Reply to: mp

    Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

    Quote:
    mp said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:

    However, in case of the 997TT a FL might make sense indeed...



    Yes, we all know how disappointed you are with the 997tt.

    IMO, it not only is a major improvement over the 996tt but is hardly in need of a FL. Still the best in its class.

    Life is too short to be waiting for the next best thing. Most of us only keep our vehicles 2-3 years anyway.

    RC seems to enjoy teasing us with partial "inside" knowledge. Either share it fully with us or wait. Some on this forum will lose sleep waiting for full disclosure.

    What really distinguishes the tt from its competition? IMO only these:

    1. 4 seats
    2. turbo
    3. daily driver





    The new AWD setup is a joke, compared to the old one and it's not faster than the competition (which was out at least a year or more before its introduction). Markus has a good point, at least from the perspective of relative improvement.

    Nov 22, 2007 6:18:46 PM

    ALDOM
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    Reply to: Crash

    Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    The new AWD setup is a joke, compared to the old one and it's not faster than the competition (which was out at least a year or more before its introduction). Markus has a good point, at least from the perspective of relative improvement.



    It's not true Crash. I have owned both cars and the new AWD makes the 997 tt more neutral then the 996 tt was. You will say 996 tt neutral?? - and you are right - the 996 tt had a lot of understeer. The 997 tt has still understeer but not so much as the old one. And show me any Porsche without understeer! Each Porsche has understeer (even GT3)- some more some less. What is very important when driving a Porsche is slow in the turn and fast out. Many and I mean really many drive to fast in the turn and then they get much understeer.

    The 997 tt is much more stable compared to the weak 996 tt. Not to speak about the power and the torque curve. So no chance to think even a second about a 996 tt when compared to 997 tt. Even my old 997 C4S with X51 was better then my previous 996 tt.

    AM

    Nov 22, 2007 6:43:57 PM

    mp
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    Reply to: WBH

    Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

    Quote:
    WBH said:

    Not sure how "distinguishing" those characteristics are....

    4 seats are a joke....rear seats don't fit anyone but midgets...and not sure how crashworthy are those vestigial rear seat structures/head restraints for human use....and any animals/inanimate objects kept back there are simply intra-car missles waiting to launch...

    Turbo is poss negative....lag/nonlinearity issues vs a high-tq NA motor...

    Daily driver....ignore passive safety and IMO any new F is more daily-driveable (better ground clearance; fuel tank capac; size of trunk; Bluetooth/iPod..and equal reliability)...and, if incl active/passive safety, CL63 is arguably ultimate daily commuting missle anyway....

    Suspect coming CA GT and SL63 Blk are forcing P to speed up its lethargic R&D pace and re-consider pricing/lease terms vs competition.....net, net great times for consumers in a slowing economy with active competition among mfrs....



    You seem to be obsessed with "Safety". Your posts always mention something about "safety" features. Stick with MB but don't compare them to Porsche - especially the CL63, while a great car, just in a completely different category. Even the SL63 will need a major upgrade/diet (unlikely), to overcome its excess weight (4200+lbs).

    As for the rear seats - yes, they can only be used by children/pets (dogs) or small adults for short rides. But it is a great feature to have, especially for those with only one vehicle.

    Many prefer a Turbo for its low-end torque and ease of upgrading. I have mixed feelings. The lag drives my crazy when pushing it but its low-end torque delivers effortless power - a mixed bag.

    Finally, you can't be serious about Ferraris being better daily drivers? You really can't drive them much or their resale value will absolutely plummet. Does anyone really own just a Ferrari for daily use?

    We seems to agree on only one thing - yes, it is a great time for consumers.

    Nov 22, 2007 7:02:08 PM

    Crash
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    Reply to: ALDOM

    Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

    Quote:
    mumbasic said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    The new AWD setup is a joke, compared to the old one and it's not faster than the competition (which was out at least a year or more before its introduction). Markus has a good point, at least from the perspective of relative improvement.



    It's not true Crash. I have owned both cars and the new AWD makes the 997 tt more neutral then the 996 tt was. You will say 996 tt neutral?? - and you are right - the 996 tt had a lot of understeer. The 997 tt has still understeer but not so much as the old one. And show me any Porsche without understeer! Each Porsche has understeer (even GT3)- some more some less. What is very important when driving a Porsche is slow in the turn and fast out. Many and I mean really many drive to fast in the turn and then they get much understeer.

    The 997 tt is much more stable compared to the weak 996 tt. Not to speak about the power and the torque curve. So no chance to think even a second about a 996 tt when compared to 997 tt. Even my old 997 C4S with X51 was better then my previous 996 tt.

    AM



    AM,

    granted I've only driven the 996TT hard and not the 997TT, but how do you comment on RC's impressions about the AWD systems?

    By the way, ever bought those skis?

    Nov 22, 2007 7:33:52 PM

    RR4
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    Reply to: Crash

    Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

    Back in the day one reason you would buy a Turbo was to get the wide body, but that doesn't make a diff now since the C4 shares the same body.

    It could only be removal of the wing - which is barely noticeable in the new models compared to the old. Or removal of the Turbo.

    Nov 22, 2007 8:52:20 PM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: mp

    Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

    Quote:
    mp said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:

    However, in case of the 997TT a FL might make sense indeed...



    Yes, we all know how disappointed you are with the 997tt.

    IMO, it not only is a major improvement over the 996tt but is hardly in need of a FL. Still the best in its class.




    As you might have anticipated I have to disagree slightly. From my perspective the 996TT is more fun to drive. The 997TT comes with many small refinements. However, the combined effect in terms of driving experience is negative. Also, the performance is not significantly better

    Nov 22, 2007 8:54:23 PM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: ALDOM

    Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

    Quote:
    mumbasic said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    The new AWD setup is a joke, compared to the old one and it's not faster than the competition (which was out at least a year or more before its introduction). Markus has a good point, at least from the perspective of relative improvement.



    It's not true Crash. I have owned both cars and the new AWD makes the 997 tt more neutral then the 996 tt was. You will say 996 tt neutral?? - and you are right - the 996 tt had a lot of understeer. The 997 tt has still understeer but not so much as the old one. And show me any Porsche without understeer! Each Porsche has understeer (even GT3)- some more some less. What is very important when driving a Porsche is slow in the turn and fast out. Many and I mean really many drive to fast in the turn and then they get much understeer.

    AM



    Adnan, you are the only 997TT driver I know (in person) who actually claims that the new PTM is superior to the old 996TT AWD...

    Nov 22, 2007 9:59:14 PM

    mp
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    mp said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:

    However, in case of the 997TT a FL might make sense indeed...



    Yes, we all know how disappointed you are with the 997tt.

    IMO, it not only is a major improvement over the 996tt but is hardly in need of a FL. Still the best in its class.




    As you might have anticipated I have to disagree slightly. From my perspective the 996TT is more fun to drive. The 997TT comes with many small refinements. However, the combined effect in terms of driving experience is negative. Also, the performance is not significantly better



    I suppose your definition of "significantly better" is vastly different than mine (and most others). Near 996GT2 acceleration and about 8 seconds faster 0-300 than the 996tt. In addition, it provides the performance of 430/Gallardo for a fraction of the cost.

    Defining "more fun to drive" is subjective. In my opinion, the 997tt's handling capabilities are extraordinary and far exceed what should be attempted on public roads (at least in USA). Not sure if any 997tt owners are being beaten by 996tt's on the track?

    If it didn't initially make you happy, simple suspension adjustments or modifications (as discussed elsewhere on this forum) would surely solve any handling issues you may have had.

    Hope either GT2/599 will make you happy.

    Nov 22, 2007 10:10:39 PM

    Dock (Atlanta)
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    Dock (Atlanta)
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    Reply to: ALDOM

    Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

    Quote:
    mumbasic said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    The new AWD setup is a joke, compared to the old one and it's not faster than the competition (which was out at least a year or more before its introduction). Markus has a good point, at least from the perspective of relative improvement.



    It's not true Crash. I have owned both cars and the new AWD makes the 997 tt more neutral then the 996 tt was. You will say 996 tt neutral?? - and you are right - the 996 tt had a lot of understeer. The 997 tt has still understeer but not so much as the old one. And show me any Porsche without understeer! Each Porsche has understeer (even GT3)- some more some less. What is very important when driving a Porsche is slow in the turn and fast out. Many and I mean really many drive to fast in the turn and then they get much understeer.

    The 997 tt is much more stable compared to the weak 996 tt. Not to speak about the power and the torque curve. So no chance to think even a second about a 996 tt when compared to 997 tt. Even my old 997 C4S with X51 was better then my previous 996 tt.

    AM



    Have you driven a 996 Turbo with X73?

    Nov 23, 2007 10:22:37 AM

    ALDOM
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    ALDO
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    Reply to: Dock (Atlanta)

    Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

    Regarding handling maybe a X73 996 tt will be better on a track then a normal 997 tt. My old 997 C4s with X51 and -20mm and LSD had a much better handling then my 996 tt. To be honest my personal feeling was that the handling of the C4S was also better then that of 997 tt.

    But - the big BUT - as a daily car the 997 tt is in every aspect much better then 996 tt, 996 tt wit X73, 997 C4S with X51 ..... the car offers everything you need. It is fast, it is smooth, it is secure,.... and it looks good (mine in white). I can drive it in every garage, on bumps ... with mine C4S -20mm it was terrible.

    AM

    Nov 23, 2007 10:27:37 AM

    ALDOM
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:

    Adnan, you are the only 997TT driver I know (in person) who actually claims that the new PTM is superior to the old 996TT AWD...



    Markus, as I said slow in fast out! But this is correct for every Porsche. The 996 tt was a master piece of understeer. Or I didn't know to drive it. Maybe the truth is somewhere in between . Talking with Porsche Sportscup winner of this year about understeer. He said - every Porsche has understeer - that is how the cars are build today.

    AM


    PS. a joke for you: what is better half inside or half outside?

    Nov 23, 2007 10:32:05 AM

    ALDOM
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    Reply to: Crash

    Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

    Quote:
    Crash said:

    By the way, ever bought those skis?



    Yes of course! Now I have a problem! I have to carry with me SLX and Speedwave. I took the Speedwave 12. So for slalom the SLX and for cruising the speedwave. I have to say, I drive now 80% with the speedwave. It is so relaxing and I have nearly the same fun with less power compared to the SLX. Elan is not building only cool power boats (E42 ) but also cool skis .

    AM

    Nov 23, 2007 11:28:45 AM

    Crash
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    Crash
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    Reply to: ALDOM

    Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

    Quote:
    mumbasic said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:

    By the way, ever bought those skis?



    Yes of course! Now I have a problem! I have to carry with me SLX and Speedwave. I took the Speedwave 12. So for slalom the SLX and for cruising the speedwave. I have to say, I drive now 80% with the speedwave. It is so relaxing and I have nearly the same fun with less power compared to the SLX. Elan is not building only cool power boats (E42 ) but also cool skis .

    AM



    The next thing for you to do is to buy a bike - by Elan .

    Nov 23, 2007 11:31:16 AM

    ALDOM
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    Reply to: Crash

    Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

    it's a pretty cool company. But I will call you, here it is very expensive. Do you have some contacts to Begunje? I mean the contacts we all need

    AM

    Nov 23, 2007 11:32:59 AM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: ALDOM

    Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

    Quote:
    mumbasic said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:


    PS. a joke for you: what is better half inside or half outside?



    I need to think about that

    Nov 23, 2007 11:59:06 AM

    Crash
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    Reply to: ALDOM

    Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

    Quote:
    mumbasic said:
    it's a pretty cool company. But I will call you, here it is very expensive. Do you have some contacts to Begunje? I mean the contacts we all need

    AM



    Not sure about the bike thing, but I could ask.

    Nov 23, 2007 12:31:35 PM

    silvershadow
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    Reply to: Crash

    Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

    RC somehow launched the bomb and disappeared...as he is laughing about all the rumor his words made Isn't it?

    Nov 23, 2007 12:46:00 PM

    ALDOM
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    ALDO
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    mumbasic said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:


    PS. a joke for you: what is better half inside or half outside?



    I need to think about that



    Better half outside - that means your where before inside

    Nov 23, 2007 1:04:09 PM

    Porsche-Jeck
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    Reply to: ALDOM

    Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

    Quote:
    mumbasic said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    mumbasic said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:


    PS. a joke for you: what is better half inside or half outside?



    I need to think about that



    Better half outside - that means your where before inside



    LoL - are you guys talking cars or what
    Ahhh, maybe a TT Cab topless

    Nov 23, 2007 2:24:13 PM

    Dock (Atlanta)
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    Reply to: ALDOM

    Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

    Quote:
    mumbasic said:
    Regarding handling maybe a X73 996 tt will be better on a track then a normal 997 tt. My old 997 C4s with X51 and -20mm and LSD had a much better handling then my 996 tt...
    But - the big BUT - as a daily car the 997 tt is in every aspect much better then 996 tt, 996 tt wit X73, 997 C4S with X51 ..... the car offers everything you need. It is fast, it is smooth, it is secure,.... I can drive it in every garage, on bumps ...



    So have you driven a 996 Turbo with X73? It's a suspension that offers huge improvements to the 996 Turbo...improvements that do not apply just at the track.
     
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