Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: 997TT vs. 996TT? - Page3

Nov 21, 2007 5:23:36 AM

sawasde: Newbie; Loc: CA; Posts: 3, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 19, 2007

997TT vs. 996TT?

I'm looking for reasons to upgrade my 996TT M6 to a 997TT M6? While I'm committed to remaining with an (old school) stick, and I've read endless amounts of literature on how the 997TT is superior in every way, I still need a little help getting over the hump of depreciation hangover...lol...so that I can take the plunge into a new PT.

My current plan is to keep it simple by ordering a new 997TT 6M, GT Silver, with black leather and Sport Chrono.

I have no interest in Tip or PDK as I'm still loving the stick thanks to a recent 996 Tip test drive...Ugghhh! Very dissapointed...

Thanks guys. Great Forum...

Cheers,

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Nov 21, 2007 10:07:54 AM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: sawasde

Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

Quote:
sawasde said:

I'm looking for reasons to upgrade my 996TT M6 to a 997TT M6? While I'm committed to remaining with an (old school) stick, and I've read endless amounts of literature on how the 997TT is superior in every way, I still need a little help getting over the hump of depreciation hangover...lol...so that I can take the plunge into a new PT.

My current plan is to keep it simple by ordering a new 997TT 6M, GT Silver, with black leather and Sport Chrono.

I have no interest in Tip or PDK as I'm still loving the stick thanks to a recent 996 Tip test drive...Ugghhh! Very dissapointed...

Thanks guys. Great Forum...

Cheers,

The facelift comes next year, so wait until then.

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Nov 21, 2007 10:47:08 AM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: sawasde

Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

I would love to say that the 997 Turbo is in any way superior over the 996 Turbo but I can't. Would I switch back from my 997 Turbo back to a 996 Turbo? Definetely not. The 997 Turbo is a very fast car, the 996 Turbo definetely plays a league lower (2 seconds from 0-125 mph are a HUGE difference). On the other hand, I like the 4WD setup of the 996 Turbo much better but I guess this is a matter of personal preference.

You can't compare the 996 Turbo Tiptronic to the 997 Turbo Tiptronic.
Porsche (Mercedes) put a lot of work into changing the setup and the shifting behaviour, the 997 Turbo Tip is definetely much better.
If you're into manual though, stick with it.

Yes, the facelift is rumoured to come next year but there is also another rumour following it and I hope it isn't true. I can't go into details (yet) but only one hint: Porsche may change something very substantial on the 997 Turbo facelift, something which was always one of the major sales arguments to buy a 911 Turbo. We'll see...I hope our sources are wrong, it wouldn't be the first time.

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Nov 21, 2007 11:23:29 AM

palenimbus: Expert; Loc: Baden-Württemberg, Germany; Posts: 1824, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 6, 2004; Reply to: RC

Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

Quote:
RC said:

Yes, the facelift is rumoured to come next year but there is also another rumour following it and I hope it isn't true. I can't go into details (yet) but only one hint: Porsche may change something very substantial on the 997 Turbo facelift, something which was always one of the major sales arguments to buy a 911 Turbo. We'll see...I hope our sources are wrong, it wouldn't be the first time.

Sometimes I think that I would rather hear nothing at all instead of an enigma like that

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Nov 21, 2007 11:24:48 AM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: palenimbus

Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

Engine...

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Nov 21, 2007 11:32:09 AM

palenimbus: Expert; Loc: Baden-Württemberg, Germany; Posts: 1824, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 6, 2004; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

Interesting, so the rumor is the Turbo will get the Carrera's leaky wet-sump engine.. at least until RC denys this

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Nov 21, 2007 11:35:19 AM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: palenimbus

Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

Or dry sump, DI, Biturbo version of facelifted 997 Carrera S engine...

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Nov 21, 2007 12:40:03 PM

Alex_997TT: Rennteam Master; Loc: Reading , United Kingdom; Posts: 3320, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 20, 2005; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

Aren't the Turbo/GT2/GT3 engines made by Porsche whereas the Carrera engines are out-sourced?!

Only sales reasons I know of in going for Turbo against other 911 variants are:

- Turbo charger so great torque (unlikey to change)
- 4wd (unlikey to change)
- More road, less track setup (unlikey to change)
- Not fixed wing (unlikey to change)
- Lots of GT creature comforts vs stripped out GT3/2 cars (unlikey to change)

What others are there?!

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Nov 21, 2007 12:50:22 PM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: Alex_997TT

Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

-Production cost(same basic components as DI engine in facelifted 997CS)
-much lower CO2 emission because of DI
-new power and torque delivery-much more linear
-new engine lighter then old one, PDK heavier then TIP, combined it meens same weight for PDK version of facelifted 997 Turbo
-old 3.6L not suitable for DI

These are reasons(or could be) for new 3.8L engine in facelifted 997 Turbo

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Nov 21, 2007 1:23:34 PM

Alex_997TT: Rennteam Master; Loc: Reading , United Kingdom; Posts: 3320, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 20, 2005; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

Surely a 3.8L DI engine would produce WAY more than 505bhp?! ..by my calc about 525bhp.

Mind you, the 4.8L Turbo DI engine from the Cayenne throws out 500bhp, so I am sure they could tune it down a little.

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Nov 21, 2007 1:27:12 PM

Alex_997TT: Rennteam Master; Loc: Reading , United Kingdom; Posts: 3320, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 20, 2005; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

Quote:
KresoF1 said:
These are reasons(or could be) for new 3.8L engine in facelifted 997 Turbo

Why would changing to a 3.8L be LESS of a sales argument to get a 911 Turbo though?

From RC's phrasing above it looks like he's suggesting one of the major plus points of buying the 911 Turbo is going away.

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Nov 21, 2007 1:29:19 PM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: Alex_997TT

Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

Because old engine is bulletproof and could last at least 200.000kms... Tuning is also important-just ask RC about tuning of new 3.8L DI Biturbo....

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Nov 21, 2007 1:31:58 PM

Alex_997TT: Rennteam Master; Loc: Reading , United Kingdom; Posts: 3320, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 20, 2005; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

Yes, that is indeed a good point.

Perhaps it will keep residuals up for the pre-facelift version then

Reliability sacrificed by Porsche for CO2 emission gains.

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Nov 21, 2007 1:34:15 PM

Porsche-Jeck: Rennteam Master; Loc: Rheinland , Germany; Posts: 4856, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2005; Reply to: Alex_997TT

Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

Quote:
Alex_ said:
Why would changing to a 3.8L be LESS of a sales argument to get a 911 Turbo though?

From RC's phrasing above it looks like he's suggesting one of the major plus points of buying the 911 Turbo is going away.

Alex, the engines of the TT and the GT-models are based on the old engine block of the 964 series - different design and said to be more robust compared to the normal M96/97 engines. Indeed it's a reason for some customers to prefer a P-car with these more robust engines (not prone to RMS-issue for example..

)
Other reason is the "real" drysump, though I'm sure this can be added to the newer engine as well (just a matter of $$, not of technology)

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Nov 21, 2007 1:36:12 PM

Alex_997TT: Rennteam Master; Loc: Reading , United Kingdom; Posts: 3320, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 20, 2005; Reply to: Porsche-Jeck

Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

Quote:
Porsche-Jeck said:
Quote:
Alex_ said:
Why would changing to a 3.8L be LESS of a sales argument to get a 911 Turbo though?

From RC's phrasing above it looks like he's suggesting one of the major plus points of buying the 911 Turbo is going away.

Alex, the engines of the TT and the GT-models are based on the old engine block of the 964 series - different design and said to be more robust compared to the normal M96/97 engines. Indeed it's a reason for some customers to prefer a P-car with these more robust engines (not prone to RMS-isue for example.. )

Great, I am very glad then that my Turbo is rolling off the production line next week and not in a year's time!!

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Nov 21, 2007 1:36:20 PM

atomic80: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Bellevue, WA USA , United States; Posts: 2596, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2006; Reply to: Alex_997TT

Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

Quote:
Alex_ said:
Aren't the Turbo/GT2/GT3 engines made by Porsche whereas the Carrera engines are out-sourced?!

Where did you hear that they were outsourced? Porsche makes ALL their engines in-house. I went on the factory tour twice and was able to watch them build their engines for the Turbo, Carrera, etc. The only engines that I didn't see them build was the V8 engines but that's probably because they're built up in Leipzig.

Like RC said, opinions vary. Personally, I think the 997TT is a much better car than the 996TT in almost every aspect except maybe a few slight parts of the interior between the two. The 996TT has a much more artistic design whereas the 997TT is more technical.

I felt that overall the 997 platform is a "leap" forward over the 996. It seems that with the advent of every new Porsche generation starting from the 993 (at least for me), the "white knuckle" knuckle factor becomes lessened-so.

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Nov 21, 2007 1:42:56 PM

Alex_997TT: Rennteam Master; Loc: Reading , United Kingdom; Posts: 3320, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 20, 2005; Reply to: atomic80

Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

Quote:
atomic80 said:
Quote:
Alex_ said:
Aren't the Turbo/GT2/GT3 engines made by Porsche whereas the Carrera engines are out-sourced?!

Where did you hear that they were outsourced? Porsche makes ALL their engines in-house. I went on the factory tour twice and was able to watch them build their engines for the Turbo, Carrera, etc. The only engines that I didn't see them build was the V8 engines but that's probably because they're built up in Leipzig.

I am sure I read on the 997 board about a year ago that some componets of the Carrera engines were made outside of Porsche, and then assembled later on by the Porsche engineers. The Turbo/GT3/GT2 engines are solely made by Porsche though. Let me see if I can dig up the thread, it was a really long one if memory serves.

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Nov 21, 2007 1:48:41 PM

bostonmini: Veteran; Loc:; Posts: 924, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 31, 2003; Reply to: Alex_997TT

Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

I think some of us are barking up the wrong tree, I doubt it would be the engine that changes, if only bc the GT2 was just intro'd....

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Nov 21, 2007 1:52:18 PM

Alex_997TT: Rennteam Master; Loc: Reading , United Kingdom; Posts: 3320, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 20, 2005; Reply to: bostonmini

Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

Well there was the rumor a while back that the 997 Turbo X50 would be 3.8L, hence not able to retrofit. So I think Kreso may be on to something.

There is a LOT of pressure to drastically reduce CO2 emissions right now and I wouldn't at all be surprised if Porsche decided to sacrifice something major to achieve that.

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Nov 21, 2007 2:06:43 PM

Marwan Arakji: Senior; Loc: Lebanon , Lebanon; Posts: 572, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 11, 2006; Reply to: sawasde

Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

how about a second generation 996 GT2!!! sounds like the car suited for your driving pleasure!

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Nov 21, 2007 2:20:56 PM

bostonmini: Veteran; Loc:; Posts: 924, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 31, 2003; Reply to: Marwan Arakji

Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

Im thinking RC is talking more MSRP lol, that would be a reason to by a 911 in the past anyway, something CLOSE to reasonable...maybe?

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Nov 21, 2007 2:26:19 PM

Turbo4ever: Senior; Loc: HK , Hong Kong; Posts: 723, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 13, 2007; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

Quote:
KresoF1 said:
-Production cost(same basic components as DI engine in facelifted 997CS)
-much lower CO2 emission because of DI
-new power and torque delivery-much more linear
-new engine lighter then old one, PDK heavier then TIP, combined it meens same weight for PDK version of facelifted 997 Turbo
-old 3.6L not suitable for DI

These are reasons(or could be) for new 3.8L engine in facelifted 997 Turbo

why no DFI for the old block?

that's mean the RS also 3.8?

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Nov 21, 2007 3:32:22 PM

atomic80: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Bellevue, WA USA , United States; Posts: 2596, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2006; Reply to: Turbo4ever

Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

Components are definitely outsourced but they're assembled in-house. You'll find that a majority of car manufacturers do this. I have a picture that shows where each component comes from. I'd just have to find it.

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Nov 21, 2007 3:40:49 PM

TT Surgeon: Senior; Loc: Long Island, NY , United States; Posts: 783, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 28, 2004; Reply to: atomic80

Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

There ain't gonna be no x50 in the current 997tt boys

.

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Nov 21, 2007 3:46:13 PM

Jeannot: Expert; Loc: Currently in Hong-Kong , Switzerland; Posts: 1745, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 13, 2005; Reply to: TT Surgeon

Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

Maybe they will just remove the trademark 'Turbo wing'?

I wonder what feature RC is talking about!

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Nov 21, 2007 3:47:50 PM

Alex_997TT: Rennteam Master; Loc: Reading , United Kingdom; Posts: 3320, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 20, 2005; Reply to: TT Surgeon

Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

Yes I get the feeling that the Porsche marketting plans for the 997/998 models have had to completely revamped serveral times in the last year due to the EU CO2 emissions targets for 2012.

Development priorities I guess would have changed and new directions taken - ranging from introduction of Direct Injection and Hybrid technology to future options beyond hybrid.

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Nov 21, 2007 4:14:05 PM

atomic80: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Bellevue, WA USA , United States; Posts: 2596, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2006; Reply to: TT Surgeon

Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

Quote:
TT Surgeon said:
There ain't gonna be no x50 in the current 997tt boys .

Oh yes, there will be...it'll just be called the X52 or something else instead.

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Nov 21, 2007 6:45:58 PM

SoCal Alan: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Orange County , United States; Posts: 7268, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 6, 2004; Reply to: RC

Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

Quote:
RC said:
Yes, the facelift is rumoured to come next year but there is also another rumour following it and I hope it isn't true. I can't go into details (yet) but only one hint: Porsche may change something very substantial on the 997 Turbo facelift, something which was always one of the major sales arguments to buy a 911 Turbo. We'll see...I hope our sources are wrong, it wouldn't be the first time.

I hate it when you this.

Can you give us a hint? Is it related to the engine or something else Maybe it is not going to be as wide or maybe the rear seats will be taken out to save weight? Maybe it will involve eliminating the AWD?

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Nov 21, 2007 6:57:54 PM

cannga: Expert; Loc: Los Angeles's "twisties" :-) , United States; Posts: 1940, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 6, 2005; Reply to: SoCal Alan

Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

What you mentioned are more or less considered good changes, at least for the more sporty-oriented crowd. I think RC is implying that changes are for the worse: "was."

>>>Porsche may change something very substantial on the 997 Turbo facelift, something which was always one of the major sales arguments to buy a 911 Turbo.
>>>>>

Quote:
SoCal Alan said:
Quote:
RC said:
Yes, the facelift is rumoured to come next year but there is also another rumour following it and I hope it isn't true. I can't go into details (yet) but only one hint: Porsche may change something very substantial on the 997 Turbo facelift, something which was always one of the major sales arguments to buy a 911 Turbo. We'll see...I hope our sources are wrong, it wouldn't be the first time.

I hate it when you this.

Can you give us a hint? Is it related to the engine or something else Maybe it is not going to be as wide or maybe the rear seats will be taken out to save weight? Maybe it will involve eliminating the AWD?

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Nov 21, 2007 9:00:28 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: cannga

Re: 997TT vs. 996TT?

Yup! I'm pretty sure the old block is going to go. Which bears another question, this time to Kreso: why is the 964 block unsuitable for a DI application?

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