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    Nov 7, 2007 4:33:41 PM

    Crash
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: GTR Review by Motor Trend...

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    The GT-R is only limited to the extend that dealerships purchasing new equipment to service the car.

    At about $65,000, the car is affordable given leasing and other finance plans. The Mustang is now near $50,000 if you purchase Rousch/Shelby models.

    The performance at the Ring beats every Porsche except the CGT and 997GT2. It's 0-60 time of 3.5 beats them all.

    So why would anyone buy a Porsche given they are both middle class cars?



    Nick, you are NOT seriously comparing supercars by 0-60 times, are you? Also, the Turbo Tip matches the GT-R if you want to play it that way. Let's just wait for independent tests to see how Porky here really does in the real world.

    Nov 7, 2007 11:03:58 PM

    GaussM
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: GTR Review by Motor Trend...

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    The GT-R is only limited to the extend that dealerships purchasing new equipment to service the car.

    At about $65,000, the car is affordable given leasing and other finance plans. The Mustang is now near $50,000 if you purchase Rousch/Shelby models.

    The performance at the Ring beats every Porsche except the CGT and 997GT2. It's 0-60 time of 3.5 beats them all.

    So why would anyone buy a Porsche given they are both middle class cars?



    Porsche is no middle class car...not in my book anyway.

    Nov 8, 2007 1:18:07 PM

    charliepug
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    Reply to: GaussM

    Re: GTR Review by Motor Trend...

    At an estimated $170,000 Aud for a GTR, and $250,000 Aud for a basic C2S, Nick you can hardly state that they are "affordable". I don't know what middle class you're on about, but where I live, most middle class folks do not own cars in this price range.Perhaps cars are that much cheaper in the States that it is more affordable. BTW even lightly tuned GTR's will have Ferrari's and Lambo's for breakfast and morning tea, but is it the more desirable choice? Depends on your (exclusive) cup of tea I guess.

    Nov 8, 2007 3:03:22 PM

    Jeannot
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    Reply to: charliepug

    Re: GTR Review by Motor Trend...

    Porsche a middleclass car is really funny...or arrogant...depends how you look at it...

    Nov 8, 2007 3:36:48 PM

    Porsche-Jeck
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    Reply to: Jeannot

    Re: GTR Review by Motor Trend...

    Quote:
    Jeannot said:
    Porsche a middleclass car is really funny...or arrogant...depends how you look at it...



    You should know best, as Switzerland has the highest P-density (P-cars/1,000 population) of all countries in the world

    Nov 8, 2007 4:00:27 PM

    WAY
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    Reply to: Porsche-Jeck

    Re: GTR Review by Motor Trend...

    Cars are dirt cheap in the US, hence Porsches being middle class car. If Nick lives in Singapore, he may be driving a Miata instead. :P

    Nov 8, 2007 4:45:27 PM

    nberry Offline
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    Reply to: Jeannot

    Re: GTR Review by Motor Trend...

    Quote:
    Jeannot said:
    Porsche a middleclass car is really funny...or arrogant...depends how you look at it...



    I guess I struck a nerve.

    I was under the impression or at least based on those that post on this site that their main concern in buying an automobile was reliability and performance. Thus they are quite happy with their Porsche's.

    However, when I point out it is a middle class car I encounter hostility. The reality is, Porsche are very affordable to the average car enthusiast. They are basically the same price as a Corvette and as a result, at least in California, Florida, New York and other states there are a ton of them.

    When you also consider the claim by Porsche that 80% of all Porsche ever built are still on the road along with their mass production today, Porsche are more ubiquitous than Corvettes Saturns and Toyota Z's.

    Porsche is a car for the average guy and Porsche marketing couldn't be happier.

    Nov 8, 2007 4:58:13 PM

    Jeannot
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: GTR Review by Motor Trend...

    If you struck a nerve...it probably is the one of the 'average guy' who cannot really afford one...even if they are 'very affordable'...
    By the way, when I drove 2000 Miles in California this summer, I did not see that many EXCEPT Beverly Hills and Monterey where there must have been some contest or something during that week-end. Outside of that, they are RARE if not ABSENT. As pointed above, we have a very high density of Porsches here, but nobody would see them as 'middle class' or 'very affordable'...
    Overall, you seem to bring the usual Ferrari vs. Porsche discussion to the next level: you even contest Porsche existence and cannot understand WHY some people choose to buy one. Tell me, would you feel better if Porsche went belly up (not that it is likely any time soon) ? Would you go then and troll say the GTR or the R8 forums?

    Nov 8, 2007 5:31:03 PM

    thuggy
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    Reply to: Jeannot

    Re: GTR Review by Motor Trend...

    LOL.. Nick! You crack me up! I love that you are rennteams version of shock jock Howard Stern... or for free radio So Cal people Tom Leykis. Median income in the US is $48,201 so Porsches are still out of reach for the middle class. But Nick does live in San Diego, as of the last census, Southern California does have 561,255 households with net worth greater than $1 million.

    Nov 8, 2007 6:23:30 PM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: thuggy

    Re: GTR Review by Motor Trend...

    Thuggy, Nick is not really a shock jock type.

    He is a clever Marque Wrecker and Brand Sabotuer who uses
    False Adulation to make his anti Porsche points that track with his personal reactionary and plutocratic beliefs.

    He has as much love for Porsche as a dog does for a cat!

    Nov 8, 2007 6:26:16 PM

    Porsche-Jeck
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    Reply to: thuggy

    Re: GTR Review by Motor Trend...

    LoL - it's all a matter of perspective. Don't forget, Nick lives in La Jolla, where even the gardeners can afford a Porsche

    Actually I'm astonished how "class conscious" some US guys are - I thought the original idea of the US was to overcome the British class system

    In terms of car enthusiasm I actually have more respect for an "average guy" having fun on the road with a 5 y/o Miata than for the snobs showing off in their "exotics".

    But sometimes it's fun seeing prejudices turn into reality:
    If you go to the Ring on a sunny weekend you can spot quite some really nice F-cars. The only strange thing is that almost all of them are parked all day long in front of the track's entry without doing one single lap - the drivers just enjoy the poor masses admiring (and photographing) their fine cars

    Just for the record - I like Ferraris a lot (and hope that those parking lot posers represent a minority of F-owners).

    Also there is no doubt, that P-cars are ridiculously inexpensive in the US (compared to other markets). For the base price of a GT3 (which definitely is a brilliant gem in the sportscar world) you get a fully specced CaymanS in Germany But I'm not envious - if more people can enjoy their Porsche in the US, I'm happy for them

    One more thing: I recall Nick accusing Porsche of making obscene profits selling their cars to blinded Porsche-lovers.
    But if at the same time these fine cars are affordable for the average guys in the US, it must be a really brilliant business concept. Huge profits make the manufacturer happy, low price tags make the customer happy - a perfect win-win scenario Capitalism at it's best - invented in "socialist" Germany

    Nov 8, 2007 6:39:39 PM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: Porsche-Jeck

    Re: GTR Review by Motor Trend...

    PJ, The recent epidemic of faux entitlement and class consciousness of the rich will recede in the US soon.

    The media hyped and self proclaimed geniuses of the financial industry may be driving home in Hyundais very soon!

    If only we could have Stalinesque "Show Trials" for them!

    Nov 8, 2007 6:43:12 PM

    Porsche-Jeck
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    Reply to: JimFlat6

    Re: GTR Review by Motor Trend...

    Jim, do I smell some nasty Schadenfreude in your post ?

    Nov 8, 2007 7:01:01 PM

    nberry Offline
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    Reply to: thuggy

    Re: GTR Review by Motor Trend...

    Quote:
    thuggy said:
    LOL.. Nick! You crack me up! I love that you are rennteams version of shock jock Howard Stern... or for free radio So Cal people Tom Leykis. Median income in the US is $48,201 so Porsches are still out of reach for the middle class. But Nick does live in San Diego, as of the last census, Southern California does have 561,255 households with net worth greater than $1 million.



    Must I remind you that median is midpoint or to be more specific over half of the households make more than $46,000 per year?

    Even at $46,000 an individual can afford a Porsche. As a matter of fact, a couple years ago there was an article in the LA Times discussing that very fact. They pointed out that many individuals renting low income apartments also owned Porsche's. Why? Because they are affordable and have a cachet.

    The marque has become a magnet for those who do not have and yet want to show the world otherwise by their ownership of a Porsche. As a result, many people who are in the know look upon Porsche ownership as nothing more then a masquerade. However, I will acknowledge that many also own Porsche because of its performance and reliability. You just cannot tell who has substance and who is the fraud.

    Nov 8, 2007 7:58:37 PM

    thuggy
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: GTR Review by Motor Trend...

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    thuggy said:
    LOL.. Nick! You crack me up! I love that you are rennteams version of shock jock Howard Stern... or for free radio So Cal people Tom Leykis. Median income in the US is $48,201 so Porsches are still out of reach for the middle class. But Nick does live in San Diego, as of the last census, Southern California does have 561,255 households with net worth greater than $1 million.



    Must I remind you that median is midpoint or to be more specific over half of the households make more than $46,000 per year?

    Even at $46,000 an individual can afford a Porsche. As a matter of fact, a couple years ago there was an article in the LA Times discussing that very fact. They pointed out that many individuals renting low income apartments also owned Porsche's. Why? Because they are affordable and have a cachet.

    The marque has become a magnet for those who do not have and yet want to show the world otherwise by their ownership of a Porsche. As a result, many people who are in the know look upon Porsche ownership as nothing more then a masquerade. However, I will acknowledge that many also own Porsche because of its performance and reliability. You just cannot tell who has substance and who is the fraud.



    Yeah... median, as in midpoint, kinda like middle class is what... the mid point between lower and upper... or were you defining middle class by some other measure other than income as you were talking about affordability

    By the same argument Nick, with the superior resale value of Ferrari, the residual on a lease will be higher and therefore Ferrari's, if able to get one, would also be affordable by the same argument. Since lease payments are primarily determined by depreciation.

    Nov 8, 2007 8:27:29 PM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: Porsche-Jeck

    Re: GTR Review by Motor Trend...

    Quote:
    Porsche-Jeck said:
    Jim, do I smell some nasty Schadenfreude in your post ?



    Lets just say that I am not surprised! Our geniuses seem to be on a roll..from the early and often ridiculous dotcom business models to selling morgtages to people with no proof of income..our geniuses have exceeded all expectations! Somehow in the 80's university education took a wierd turn....

    Next they sink to what? Declaring David Hasselhof the new Messiah?

    Its a very greasy world!

    Nov 8, 2007 8:52:52 PM

    nberry Offline
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    Reply to: JimFlat6

    Re: GTR Review by Motor Trend...

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Quote:
    Porsche-Jeck said:
    Jim, do I smell some nasty Schadenfreude in your post ?



    Lets just say that I am not surprised! Our geniuses seem to be on a roll..from the early and often ridiculous dotcom business models to selling morgtages to people with no proof of income..our geniuses have exceeded all expectations! Somehow in the 80's university education took a wierd turn....

    Next they sink to what? Declaring David Hasselhof the new Messiah?

    Its a very greasy world!



    Jim in the past 4 months I have attended two high end European new car model feedback sessions. Both were very limited invitees. In surveying the invitees on both occasions, over half were mortgage brokers. Many were under 40 years old.

    Nov 8, 2007 9:13:38 PM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: GTR Review by Motor Trend...

    Nick, Next time those guys will be there for the free food!

    I bet they can hear the Repomans' trucks coming.

    Many of them are probably now even hiding their leased trophy cars in the parking lots of subsidized housing.

    Don't you worry. Good lawyers are indespensible no matter if the economy is going up or down.

    Nov 8, 2007 10:00:02 PM

    95jersey
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    Reply to: JimFlat6

    Re: GTR Review by Motor Trend...

    Couple of things, someone made a comment that a Porsche is the same price as a Corvette...WAY OFF on that one! I am thinking the lowest optioned 911 is easily $70k. The Cayman is easily $60k, and the Boxster is $50k. I can actually buy a brand new 6.2 Liter C6Z51 with 430hp for $42k easily and walk a 575/997/Cayman S on a road course.

    I think many middle class folks in major metropolitan areas can afford $50-60k cars as they all seem to have these big expensive SUV's. I just think sports cars are out of style for most American's, and they prefer utility to fun. If you only got $50k to spend on a vehicle and got 3 kids, what are you going to buy? Expensive sports cars are MOSTLY someone's 2nd or 3rd car, which puts them out of average middle class. So NOI guess if you make $5M a year, someone who makes $500k a year may be middle class?

    Nov 9, 2007 11:33:25 AM

    thuggy
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: GTR Review by Motor Trend...

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Quote:
    Porsche-Jeck said:
    Jim, do I smell some nasty Schadenfreude in your post ?



    Lets just say that I am not surprised! Our geniuses seem to be on a roll..from the early and often ridiculous dotcom business models to selling morgtages to people with no proof of income..our geniuses have exceeded all expectations! Somehow in the 80's university education took a wierd turn....

    Next they sink to what? Declaring David Hasselhof the new Messiah?

    Its a very greasy world!



    Jim in the past 4 months I have attended two high end European new car model feedback sessions. Both were very limited invitees. In surveying the invitees on both occasions, over half were mortgage brokers. Many were under 40 years old.



    Lots of pain in mortgages and debt markets right now, Merrill, Citi, Morgan, Lehman etc are taking huge hits! Not sure how many new super cars are on these guys to buy lists this bonus season.

    Goldman is making out though... their bonus pool this year is big enough to BUY Bear Sterns!

    Nov 9, 2007 2:27:12 PM

    The Groom
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    Reply to: thuggy

    Re: GTR Review by Motor Trend...

    Citi and Merill only got hammered for being more honest than Goldman. In fact Goldman are among the most exposed.

    Accounting rules are changing next week. Owners of so-called "Level 3" assets (illiquid and for which no real valuation exists) will have to mark them down. That's where it gets interesting.

    Ratio of Level 3 assets to equity:
    Morgan Stanley 251%
    Goldman Sachs 185%
    Lehman Bros 159%
    Bear Sterns 154%
    Merill Lynch 38%
    (Citigroup 105%)

    Source: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=ap42s_XrP58Q&refer=home

    Nov 9, 2007 4:09:30 PM

    thuggy
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    Reply to: The Groom

    Re: GTR Review by Motor Trend...

    Quote:
    The Groom said:
    Citi and Merill only got hammered for being more honest than Goldman. In fact Goldman are among the most exposed.

    Accounting rules are changing next week. Owners of so-called "Level 3" assets (illiquid and for which no real valuation exists) will have to mark them down. That's where it gets interesting.

    Ratio of Level 3 assets to equity:
    Morgan Stanley 251%
    Goldman Sachs 185%
    Lehman Bros 159%
    Bear Sterns 154%
    Merill Lynch 38%
    (Citigroup 105%)

    Source: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=ap42s_XrP58Q&refer=home



    "More honest", love when it is used as a relative term but very appropriate.

    Nov 9, 2007 8:12:57 PM

    The Groom
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    Reply to: thuggy

    Re: GTR Review by Motor Trend...

    Indeed, it's all relative. Truth is, nobody knows yet how deep the rabbit hole goes. Even those who did announce write-offs.

    I doubt investment bankers and hedgies will start buying GT-Rs instead of Ferraris, though.

    Nov 9, 2007 8:31:48 PM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: The Groom

    Re: GTR Review by Motor Trend...

    Watch the Bond Market.

    It could get nasty as bond ratings sink because their garauntors have declining share prices.
    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ffe67a8e-8e26-11dc-8591-0000779fd2ac.html

    When US municipal and other bonds thought to be "safe" start to lose their high ratings because their garauntors (monoline insurance companys)suffer asset declines due to their decreased share prices - thereby making them unable to garuntee the value of the bonds they insure - all sorts of nightmare scenarios can appear.

    Combine that with the other factors present today of huge company losses,high oil prices, low consumer spending,real property value declines and a tragic downward economic momentum will begin.

    You may see the "perfect storm." Beware!

    Nov 9, 2007 9:33:43 PM

    The Groom
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    Reply to: JimFlat6

    Re: GTR Review by Motor Trend...

    I'm aware of the bond insurer issue. For what it's worth, they're all history.

    The current financial crisis is first and foremost a crisis of trust. Real-estate appraisers have failed to appraise property. Banks have failed to even glance at their customers' creditworthiness. Rating agencies have failed to give accurate ratings. Bond insurance companies and CDS writers have failed to fund their liabilities. The SEC has failed to prevent banks from pulling an Enron. Central Banks have failed to keep monetary creation in check.

    Everyone knows the other guy is lying as well. Trust is gone. Without trust, there can be no market.

    Nov 9, 2007 9:41:50 PM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: The Groom

    Re: GTR Review by Motor Trend...

    Well said Groom.

    The Central Banks enabled the snowball to be built and now it may roll downhill growing exponentially and crushing everything in its path! Let us hope that the geniuses in SF/Basel/Greenwich/London that made this monster also feel the monster roll thru their "leafy suburbs."

    Nov 9, 2007 10:25:39 PM

    The Groom
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    Reply to: JimFlat6

    Re: GTR Review by Motor Trend...

    There's nothing Central Banks can do. Even dropping rates to 0. It's a matter of trust. Trust is the ultimate intangible. It cannot be purchased.
    (In fact, dropping rates to 0 will make it obvious to anyone that the situation is indeed desperate. Ask the Bank of Japan! )

    It's like the Z06 and the GT-R. Great performance for the money, but most Ferrari buyers won't be caught dead in one.

    Maybe GM and Nissan should double their prices if they want to be taken seriously.

    Nov 10, 2007 12:17:56 AM

    nberry Offline
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    Reply to: The Groom

    Re: GTR Review by Motor Trend...

    You obviously are well informed.

    I agree the issue is more perception than reality. Investors often look to the past and conclude that no matter the seriousness of the financial situation, the economy/markets will always bounce back.

    Those in the know will see this as a buying opportunity. For an example, the Euro today can be used to buy US stocks at a discount.

    Nov 10, 2007 3:24:31 PM

    The Groom
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: GTR Review by Motor Trend...

    Problem is, markets don't always bounce back. The current financial crisis is a private credit bubble. Private credit bubbles always end in deflation. Many end in outright depressions.

    The "Long Depression" (1873-1896), the "Great Depression" (1929-1940), the Japanese "Lost Decade" (1990-?) are the most infamous examples of what happens when a private credit bubble bursts. Guess who's coming to dinner?



    By the way, for a European investor, it makes no sense to buy most US stocks, assuming the USD loses 10% per year (and that's conservative IMHO).
    For the record, the IMF considers that even at 1.50 to the EUR, the USD is still wildly overvalued.

    Nov 10, 2007 4:24:18 PM

    nberry Offline
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    Reply to: The Groom

    Re: GTR Review by Motor Trend...

    Never underestimate the power of our Federal Reserve Bank. Prior Depression's occurred before the creation of the Bank.

    FWIW, some of the companies that have the credit issues have some of the best PE's. Look at the PE for Citicorp, AIG, and so on. You will be pleasantly surprised.
     
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