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    Oct 20, 2007 7:46:45 PM

    fritz
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    Reply to: Porsche-Jeck

    Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...

    Quote:
    Porsche-Jeck said:
    Quote:
    WBH said:
    poss primitive PASM/PSM vs public, imperfect roads (which often don't correlate well vs NBR)....



    What are you talking about, WBH ? Nordschleife with all it's bumps, patches of various surfaces, cracks in the tarmac etc. is definitely more "imperfect" than a lot of public roads - that's why they test production cars there, not racecars.


    @ Fritz & Turbo-Al: great posts



    Thanks PJ.

    At the risk of sounding like we two have joined the same Mutual Admiration Society, I also thought your observation on WBH/VKSF's remark on Nürburgring not correlating to "imperfect roads" was absolutely right. I have yet to drive a normal asphalted public road more "imperfect" than the Karussel at the 'Ring.

    WBH/VKSF has obviously not yet had the opportunity to visit the Nürburgring, otherwise he would know better than to make that remark.

    Oct 20, 2007 7:59:57 PM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: fritz

    Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...

    You guys forgot to mention the 'Rings errant suicide bikers, confused english tourists and elderly drivers getting the last 2kph out of their dying VW 411's...

    Oct 20, 2007 8:26:40 PM

    fritz
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    Reply to: JimFlat6

    Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    You guys forgot to mention the 'Rings errant suicide bikers, confused english tourists and elderly drivers getting the last 2kph out of their dying VW 411's...




    Dying VW 411s?

    That species has been extinct for decades.

    When was the last time you were in Germany, Jim?

    Oct 20, 2007 8:41:44 PM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: fritz

    Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...

    AD 2001 .... Is it safe for me to come back now?

    I actually saw a 411 in Berlin then. Painted a lurid spray can metallic gold with a huge wing on the back! So much for re unification!

    Oct 20, 2007 9:12:21 PM

    fritz
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    Reply to: JimFlat6

    Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    AD 2001 .... Is it safe for me to come back now?

    I actually saw a 411 in Berlin then. Painted a lurid spray can metallic gold with a huge wing on the back! So much for re unification!



    I think serious misdemeanors can be followed up here for 30 years, so call me when you get back here in 2032.

    Re lurid gold 411 seen in Berlín: That guy was probably coming from a Trabant, so he was still moving up-market.

    Oct 20, 2007 10:07:37 PM

    WhoopsyM Offline
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    Reply to: AAHTT

    Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...

    Quote:
    AAHTT said:

    You beat me to it, I think it is the only answer. it looks like HVS was more confortable driving the GT2 near its limits than the TT. There is no other explanation for that huge difference in time.




    Exactly what I have been saying for the past few months, HvS is just not comfortable driving the 997TT fast and his time is not what the car is truely capable of. Compared with the 997TT, the GT2 is without the awd system and completely different suspension tuning, it's a completely different car that requires a different driving style, and I am not surprised that HvS had a good time.

    Oct 21, 2007 2:02:45 AM

    HLisk
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    Reply to: WhoopsyM

    Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...

    All of this positive information on the GT2 really makes me glad I put a deposit on one even after the dealer said that he didn't know if Porsche was going to build any. I was informed by the dealer that my build date would be June 2008.

    Oct 21, 2007 7:59:38 AM

    AUM
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    Reply to: HLisk

    Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...

    HsV is one of the fastest and most experienced Ring testers alive today. He has driven almost all 911s at their limit on the Ring for years.

    If he has difficulty with the 997 TT at the limit (as most experienced drivers do) the car has problems on a race track.

    Fortunately the return of the king restores both Porsche and HsV credibility..

    For

    Oct 21, 2007 8:13:56 AM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: TB993tt

    Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...

    Quote:
    TB993tt said:
    Re the 997GT2's 0-300kph. If it turns out ~32s I consider that pretty disappointing.



    Disappointing??? You must be kidding

    This is in the same league as CGT, 599GTB, LP640, SLR etc.

    Given the rather fair pricing (even in Europe, not to speak of the US where the GT2 is sold really cheap) 33s are excellent

    Oct 21, 2007 8:20:42 AM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: KresoF1

    Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Quote:
    turbosteff said:
    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    BTW, where are now all Horst von Saurma sceptics

    Few weeks ago:"von Saurma do not know how to drive 997...","997 Turbo is too much for him..." etc.

    So, what are your comments NOW

    I was repeating like a Parrot that GT2 results in von Saurma hands will be truly amazing...

    Hi Kreso !
    It makes no sense to start the old discussion again. I think all is posted. But I have only one question and I try to ask this as neutral as possible not to generate a bad mood in this thread:
    How can it be that HvS achieved after doing 2 laps (according to supertests policy one intro lap and one fast lap) nearly the same lap time as WR (who is imho one of the fastest driver on the planet) who did hundreds of laps with the GT2?

    If the lap times of HvS would have been between 7,35 and 7,38 for the GT2 that would sound realistic to me and I would not criticize the supertest anymore.



    Here is a potential answer-new 997 GT2 is much easier car to drive on the limit then 997 Turbo(manual with optional LSD). Apparently GT2 offeres better traction(dry track) and high speed stability on straight line and in corners then 997 Turbo. This is the reason IMO. I spoke about it with my friend who works for Motorpresse(company that publishe AMS and Sport Auto).

    One 997 Turbo TIP(and TIP version can not have optional LSD) owner said to me that car is pain in the ass for track driving on the limit or near it. Go figure...



    Another consideration: I recall earlier WR quotes where he claimed a 7:29 or so on the NBR (which would make sense BTW as his CGT time was reportedly 7:28, thus 7:32 would be far slower than CGT even on old CGT tires...). Thus, the "true" difference between WR and HvS could be 7:33 minus 7:29 = 4s which would be perfectly in line with many earlier tests (including the CGT test)

    P.S.: The available figures highlight that the CGT is still a much faster car than the GT2 (despite Porsche's marketing claims) - the CGT was quicker in the hands of WR and HvS on both NBR and HHR. And these CGT results were achieved on old tires. With current tire technology the CGT would be much quicker than the GT2. Of course, this should not be a surprise to anybody. The CGT is a gem

    Oct 21, 2007 8:23:29 AM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: fritz

    Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Despite some of the posts we have read here recently expressing doubt about HvS's ability, I suspect that he also has the talent and experience to get the best out of a car with very little seat time.




    Seems so, if he can lap the Ring in 7:33 or 7:32 (CGT) he should have some talent

    Oct 21, 2007 11:15:11 AM

    TB993tt
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    TB993tt said:
    Re the 997GT2's 0-300kph. If it turns out ~32s I consider that pretty disappointing.



    Disappointing??? You must be kidding

    This is in the same league as CGT, 599GTB, LP640, SLR etc.

    Given the rather fair pricing (even in Europe, not to speak of the US where the GT2 is sold really cheap) 33s are excellent


    Not interested in other brands, CGT has the Cd worse than a Cayenne..... I expected 530 "Porsche hp" to dip below 30s. I wonder how much the downforce increases after 200kph, it already "weighs" 1535kg by 200kph.
    I mentioned before my 993tt 2WD with plastic arches running ~30s 0-300 with ~540 real hp - expected the 997GT2 2WD to be at least as fast

    Oct 21, 2007 11:37:05 AM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: TB993tt

    Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...

    Quote:
    TB993tt said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    TB993tt said:
    Re the 997GT2's 0-300kph. If it turns out ~32s I consider that pretty disappointing.



    Disappointing??? You must be kidding

    This is in the same league as CGT, 599GTB, LP640, SLR etc.

    Given the rather fair pricing (even in Europe, not to speak of the US where the GT2 is sold really cheap) 33s are excellent


    Not interested in other brands, CGT has the Cd worse than a Cayenne..... I expected 530 "Porsche hp" to dip below 30s. I wonder how much the downforce increases after 200kph, it already "weighs" 1535kg by 200kph.
    I mentioned before my 993tt 2WD with plastic arches running ~30s 0-300 with ~540 real hp - expected the 997GT2 2WD to be at least as fast



    If I recall correctly, your modified 993 has a special aerodynamic setup to achieve such good acceleration? Also, what was the top speed (i.e. gearing) of your 993 again? Also, I assume that your 993 could also be tested with some 32s or so, depending on the environmental parameters, right?

    Assuming that a car with close to 700hp (RS or Ruf) did 0-300 in 23s-27s (depending on the test...) and that the 460hp GT2 (Mk1) did 41s in a AMS high-speed test I would argue that 33s for the new GT2 is a fairly remarkable and good result

    Oct 21, 2007 11:58:01 AM

    Porsche-Jeck
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    Reply to: fritz

    Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    I have yet to drive a normal asphalted public road more "imperfect" than the Karussel at the 'Ring.




    LoL - on a normal public road some drivers might initiate court actions against the local authorities due to the terrible rattle stones shaking the car's suspension like crazy - but then, you always can drive on the right side of the curve, which isn't that bad after all

    @ MKSGR: good point re the tires
    The tiny gap in laptime W.R vs. HvS (even if you take WR's unofficial 7:29) is still amazing IMO, if you consider that the gap in the easy to drive and far less powerful 987S was 5 sec. (I actually would expect the gap to widen in a supercar like the GT2, which should require definitely both better driving skills and bigger balls to drive it at the limit on NoS).

    Kudos to both, Porsche for obviously having built a fantastic car and HvS for mastering it that well at the limit

    Oct 21, 2007 12:04:04 PM

    TB993tt
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...

    Aero mods are pod mirrors and Ruf screen gutter inserts - negative aero mods are 993GT2 arches, stock gearing, maximum speed 312kph. Worst of 3 runs was ~31.2s

    I think you know that my belief is that many people "throw" hp numbers around too easily and that real Porsche hp, even an extra say 20 costs a loot of money and usually makes a significant difference to performance. The 700hp Ruf's have right around the 650 which Alois states and for RS's top 996/7 engine package of ~680PS will cost you 150K Euro and will include the very expensive Secan intercoolers....

    If the 460hp GT2 did 0-300 in 41secs, then another 70 real hp could IMO lop 11secs off the time....
    I have some more data showing a heavyish Ruf Nardo (590hp) running a ~28s 0-300....
    To be fair I guess I'm splitting hairs here, 32s is pretty fast, I am just interested in what the downforce effect will have on slowing the acceleration over 200kph - on the CGT it really takes hold with the car "weighing" ~1800kg by 300kph

    Oct 21, 2007 4:33:19 PM

    VGA18
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...

    That is an amazing number. So GT2 proved that again it is the king of tracks..

    I was expecting a time about 7.40 but i was wrong. So this also proves that HVS is still great driver and Sport Auto tests are the best ones suitable for real life From my older posts i was wondering the comments if HVS get a 7.40 time on 997 GT2 which means slower than WR.(HVS go and retire and do barbeque rofl!!)

    21 second faster than 997 Turbo which is an amazing difference also.

    Oct 21, 2007 8:33:18 PM

    turbolite
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    Reply to: VGA18

    Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...

    Quote:
    VGA18 said:
    That is an amazing number. So GT2 proved that again it is the king of tracks..

    I was expecting a time about 7.40 but i was wrong. So this also proves that HVS is still great driver and Sport Auto tests are the best ones suitable for real life From my older posts i was wondering the comments if HVS get a 7.40 time on 997 GT2 which means slower than WR.(HVS go and retire and do barbeque rofl!!)

    21 second faster than 997 Turbo which is an amazing difference also. [/
    quote]


    which goes to show one thing: the 997 tt dynamics are flawed!

    whatever people say, this becomes clear when u see the time of the 997tt versus the 996tt an the new gt2. just 4 seconds better than a 996 but with sports tires and ceramics, ridiculous! and 21 seconds worse than the gt2 with only 50hp more and a small weight difference.
    the 997tt will get a BIG revision with the facelift, I'm convinced of that. and the biggest change will not happen with the DI but the chassis setup of that car...

    Oct 21, 2007 8:49:09 PM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: TB993tt

    Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...

    Quote:
    TB993tt said:
    Aero mods are pod mirrors and Ruf screen gutter inserts - negative aero mods are 993GT2 arches, stock gearing, maximum speed 312kph. Worst of 3 runs was ~31.2s




    Ahh.... Based on Ruf information the shorter 310kph gearing might bring 2s (0-300). Thus, adding these 2s to the 31s you mention above... you get 33s, the GT2 time. Obviously, your car has some 10, 20 hp more than the GT2. In essence, the GT2 time does make sense then, doesn't it

    Oct 21, 2007 9:07:12 PM

    fritz
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    TB993tt said:
    Aero mods are pod mirrors and Ruf screen gutter inserts - negative aero mods are 993GT2 arches, stock gearing, maximum speed 312kph. Worst of 3 runs was ~31.2s




    Ahh.... Based on Ruf information the shorter 310kph gearing might bring 2s (0-300). Thus, adding these 2s to the 31s you mention above... you get 33s, the GT2 time. Obviously, your car has some 10, 20 hp more than the GT2. In essence, the GT2 time does make sense then, doesn't it



    One of the most decisive factors for acceleration times is the car's weight. The 993 was more compact than the 997, had less safety equipment, and TB993TT's car is probably stripped out to an extent which would not be acceptable to most 997 GT2 buyers. So what was the 993's weight when it achieved those sub-30second times?

    Oct 21, 2007 9:37:00 PM

    nberry Offline
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    Reply to: fritz

    Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...

    Who would buy this car?

    Oct 21, 2007 10:21:54 PM

    thuggy
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Who would buy this car?



    Now that's just silly nick.

    Oct 21, 2007 10:38:06 PM

    Crash
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    Reply to: thuggy

    Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...

    Quote:
    thuggy said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Who would buy this car?



    Now that's just silly nick.



    What Nick doesn't understand is that some people actually buy their sports cars for serious driving, not just cruising the shores of La Jolla .

    Oct 21, 2007 11:43:09 PM

    Erik
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Who would buy this car?



    I think many of us assumed you'd be one of the first to put your name down for one knowing your supreme love for Porsche automobiles and all.

    Oct 22, 2007 12:55:57 AM

    eclou Offline
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    Reply to: Erik

    Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...

    In a 0-300kph sprint, the GT2 driver would have time to smoke a cigarette while spotting the F430 15 or so seconds prior to taking off.

    Oct 22, 2007 2:11:46 AM

    thuggy
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    Reply to: Erik

    Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...

    Quote:
    Erik said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Who would buy this car?



    I think many of us assumed you'd be one of the first to put your name down for one knowing your supreme love for Porsche automobiles and all.



    True, I guess he is now going to say that people are buying the Scuderia because of the superior resale and not because of the increased performance.

    Oct 22, 2007 3:29:13 PM

    BiTurbo
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    Reply to: thuggy

    Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...

    You will never win a race without understanding how tires work.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfTSvkcKRy8

    Oct 22, 2007 4:31:48 PM

    fredb
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    Reply to: BiTurbo

    Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...

    so now, my question is : a red one or a yellow one?

    Dec 25, 2007 1:36:19 PM

    BiTurbo
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    Reply to: fredb

    Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...

    THIS

    Dec 26, 2007 4:20:31 AM

    LAT
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    Reply to: BiTurbo

    Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...

    Quote:
    aerodynmaics:

    cd=0.32
    9 kg and 29 kg downforce at 200 km/h in front/rear



    I wonder how the OEM Aerokit compares to these figures.

    The 997TT has;
    8 Kg lift and 12 Kg downforce in stock trim at 200 km/h in front/rear

    Dec 26, 2007 11:32:28 AM

    TB993tt
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    Reply to: LAT

    Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...

    Quote:
    LAT said:
    Quote:
    aerodynmaics:

    cd=0.32
    9 kg and 29 kg downforce at 200 km/h in front/rear



    I wonder how the OEM Aerokit compares to these figures.

    The 997TT has;
    8 Kg lift and 12 Kg downforce in stock trim at 200 km/h in front/rear


    Christophorus contained a quote from a P engineer saying the 997tt had near zero lift at maximum speed ~310kph and talked about their pride in achieving 0.29Cd yet managing the high speed lift.
    The way they describe the aerodynamic benefits of the new 997tt aerokit I would guess at small positive downforce all the way with little effect on Cd.

    The GT2 aerodynamics have quite a few different features including the airflow through the front PU, wider (more blunt) frontal area and of course the rear spoiler arrangement with the drag inducing inlets....
    The 997GT2 aero balance seems outstanding but comes with the "penalty" of altering the Cd to 0.33.

    Talk on here of "throwing" GT2 front spoilers onto stock 997tts and then putting some "matching" rear wing on, seemingly selected by looking at pictures is IMO a stupid and potentially dangerous thing to do -Porsche worked very hard to get these very fast cars balanced, respect should be shown -caveat: for a sub 100mph poseur car, wing away
     
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