Crown

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MKSGR said:

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mp said:

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eclou said:

Well, since it is 4 seconds faster, perhaps there is something more to this "rumor"?

As per the latest issue of SportAuto the difference between the former Supertest 997TT and a recently tested 997TT is 2s (not 4s). Maybe Kreso refers to some additional changes not yet published

I guess Porsche won't give up until the car achieves the advertised 7:49 .

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Crash said:

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MKSGR said:

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mp said:

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eclou said:

Well, since it is 4 seconds faster, perhaps there is something more to this "rumor"?

As per the latest issue of SportAuto the difference between the former Supertest 997TT and a recently tested 997TT is 2s (not 4s). Maybe Kreso refers to some additional changes not yet published

I guess Porsche won't give up until the car achieves the advertised 7:49 .

The funny thing is: they even advertised 7:40 (if I recall correctly). Giving HvS a 5s margin on WR this should imply a SportAuto NBR time of 7:45... Highly unlikely, that they will ever achieve this The factory claim is simply far off the reality

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Whoopsy said:
If HvS, with his limited skill in driving the 997TT can achieve a 2 second gain, then I guess WR can get into the 30s with the new set up?

Seriously, I think the 2 second gain is within the margin of error and maybe HvS learned more about how to drive the 997TT between tests and hence the gain. We all know he is well underachieved driving the 997TT on the 'ring so there are more to gain to bring that time up to his 'standard', unless his limited skills has already been maxed on this latest test.

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MKSGR said:

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Whoopsy said:
If HvS, with his limited skill in driving the 997TT can achieve a 2 second gain, then I guess WR can get into the 30s with the new set up?

Seriously, I think the 2 second gain is within the margin of error and maybe HvS learned more about how to drive the 997TT between tests and hence the gain. We all know he is well underachieved driving the 997TT on the 'ring so there are more to gain to bring that time up to his 'standard', unless his limited skills has already been maxed on this latest test.

You start speculating again without proper knowledge of the facts SportAuto mentions in the recent issue that the 2s better time was achieved on a car with a modified setup (meaning a different setup than the Supertest 997TT had).

BTW: Please discontinue repeating stuff like "we all know he is well underachieving driving the 997TT". We are not in the Kindergarten here and the patience of the well informed Rennteam community should not be tested beyond a certain limit The quality of this board suffers if such unfounded and unqualified statements are posted again and again.

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MKSGR said:

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Whoopsy said:
If HvS, with his limited skill in driving the 997TT can achieve a 2 second gain, then I guess WR can get into the 30s with the new set up?

Seriously, I think the 2 second gain is within the margin of error and maybe HvS learned more about how to drive the 997TT between tests and hence the gain. We all know he is well underachieved driving the 997TT on the 'ring so there are more to gain to bring that time up to his 'standard', unless his limited skills has already been maxed on this latest test.

You start speculating again without proper knowledge of the facts SportAuto mentions in the recent issue that the 2s better time was achieved on a car with a modified setup (meaning a different setup than the Supertest 997TT had).

BTW: Please discontinue repeating stuff like "we all know he is well underachieving driving the 997TT". We are not in the Kindergarten here and the patience of the well informed Rennteam community should not be tested beyond a certain limit The quality of this board suffers if such unfounded and unqualified statements are posted again and again.

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Whoopsy said:
If HvS, with his limited skill in driving the 997TT can achieve a 2 second gain, then I guess WR can get into the 30s with the new set up?

Seriously, I think the 2 second gain is within the margin of error and maybe HvS learned more about how to drive the 997TT between tests and hence the gain. We all know he is well underachieved driving the 997TT on the 'ring so there are more to gain to bring that time up to his 'standard', unless his limited skills has already been maxed on this latest test.

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MKSGR said:

You start speculating again without proper knowledge of the facts SportAuto mentions in the recent issue that the 2s better time was achieved on a car with a modified setup (meaning a different setup than the Supertest 997TT had).

BTW: Please discontinue repeating stuff like "we all know he is well underachieving driving the 997TT". We are not in the Kindergarten here and the patience of the well informed Rennteam community should not be tested beyond a certain limit The quality of this board suffers if such unfounded and unqualified statements are posted again and again.

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Whoopsy said:

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MKSGR said:

You start speculating again without proper knowledge of the facts SportAuto mentions in the recent issue that the 2s better time was achieved on a car with a modified setup (meaning a different setup than the Supertest 997TT had).

BTW: Please discontinue repeating stuff like "we all know he is well underachieving driving the 997TT". We are not in the Kindergarten here and the patience of the well informed Rennteam community should not be tested beyond a certain limit The quality of this board suffers if such unfounded and unqualified statements are posted again and again.

And you are the one properly informed? Please. You keep quoting SA like it's the bible but you do not know for certain HOW SA test their cars and under WHAT condition. You keep saying they did published how they test before but that was so long ago that a lot of the condition could have changed. Heck a test in the spring time could very well be different than one taken in the middle of summer even in the same car. If SA test criteria is really strict, why don't they post their criteria on their website?

Just as you are doubtful of Prosche's claims, there are others like me who are doubtful of SA's claim. So you are allowed to doubt Porsche but we are not allowed to doubt SA? Now that's some childish behaviour. This is a internet forum and there will be all sorts of different views, we tolerate your narrowed minded opinions, we tolerated Nick sour remarks but somehow you don't want people to doubt your idol HvS?

SA can claim whatever they want without fear of lawsuits but Porsche is liable to be sue if their claims are false. That's the difference why Porsche's claim is more reliable. Plus Porsche had someone who know the car intimately to do the tests.

The cars may hav a differet setup, but a 2 second differece on a lap time of 7:54 is only 0.4%, miniscule consider the track length. It could very well have come from temperature, track condition, better line out of a corner or whatever combinations of factors other than a different setup.

HvS have a log lists of cars he tested and most of them he drove well, but can you not accept that he might be less accomplished in a awd rear engine-ed 997TT which is 'tricky' at the limit? HvS is not god and there will be a car configuration that he cannot handle, just like Michael Jordan is great in basketball, but he is not as good in baseball or golf, he still plays the other 2 sports well but just not as good as he is in basketball.

Fact is, this is not 'HvS-is-my-idol-and-I-will-not-question-his-skills board', the big difference between his time and the factory time is what brought me to question his skill in a 997TT. You have as much rights in questioning the factory time as I have in questioning HvS's skills in a 997TT.

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MKSGR said:

You start speculating again without proper knowledge of the facts SportAuto mentions in the recent issue that the 2s better time was achieved on a car with a modified setup (meaning a different setup than the Supertest 997TT had).

BTW: Please discontinue repeating stuff like "we all know he is well underachieving driving the 997TT". We are not in the Kindergarten here and the patience of the well informed Rennteam community should not be tested beyond a certain limit The quality of this board suffers if such unfounded and unqualified statements are posted again and again.

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mp said:

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MKSGR said:

You start speculating again without proper knowledge of the facts SportAuto mentions in the recent issue that the 2s better time was achieved on a car with a modified setup (meaning a different setup than the Supertest 997TT had).

BTW: Please discontinue repeating stuff like "we all know he is well underachieving driving the 997TT". We are not in the Kindergarten here and the patience of the well informed Rennteam community should not be tested beyond a certain limit The quality of this board suffers if such unfounded and unqualified statements are posted again and again.

It would appear you have good knowledge of SA's Supertest. Did H.V.S. use PSM or didn't he? Could the greater than usual difference in lap times between SA and Porsche's official claim boil down to the Turbo's PSM deficiencies? IMO, it's hard to think Porsche would deliberately "lie" about its vehicles' performance - when they are usually conservative, even about their power ratings.

By the way, with all due respect, just because one magazine (SA) makes a claim, doesn't mean everyone on this forum "must" agree - no matter how good their track record is. Some of us take different approaches in evaluating cars - and that should be just fine IMO.

Sorry to beat a dead horse.

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Crash said:

Whoopsy, Horst has handled the GT2 around the NS as fast as Walter. That speaks volumes of his skills. Also, RC was complaining about the car's handling attributes long before the Supertest was published, when we still expected a sub 7:50 time. The sheer fact that Porsche had redesigned the PTM setup and had Sport Auto retest the car speaks volumes and pretty much confirms Markus' claims. Porsche screwed up with the setup and now they're fixing it. Tell me, does a man who drove a CGT at 7:32 on the NS (without hitting a wall while trying) qualify as an objective arbiter or not?

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Whoopsy said:

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Crash said:

Whoopsy, Horst has handled the GT2 around the NS as fast as Walter. That speaks volumes of his skills. Also, RC was complaining about the car's handling attributes long before the Supertest was published, when we still expected a sub 7:50 time. The sheer fact that Porsche had redesigned the PTM setup and had Sport Auto retest the car speaks volumes and pretty much confirms Markus' claims. Porsche screwed up with the setup and now they're fixing it. Tell me, does a man who drove a CGT at 7:32 on the NS (without hitting a wall while trying) qualify as an objective arbiter or not?

Crash, again the GT2 is a different car configuration than the 997TT, rwd vs awd. CGT is a mid-engine rwd and they all drives differently. As RC and numerous others have noted, the 997TT is tricky at the limit and has some weird handling quirks and this is the bases on which I think HvS is just not used to or comfortable driving the 997TT fast at the limit. WR had hundreds of laps in that car, myabe the 7:40 is only do-able by him but I think if HvS was given the chance to proerly learn the car's quirks and get comfortable, he will have a better time. What I have been claiming all along is that HvS because of his personal limits never fully exploited the car. I have never question his skills on other type of car configurations, in fact, he looks most promising in midengine cars judging by his times, I am just saying rear engine awd is not his specialty.

If Porche screwed up on the PTM, the one tuning the handling, WR, would not have sign off on it. It could very well be that WR was happy with the first one but the customers were not and they retune it this time around. Just like what WR said on the GT3, he could very well tuned another 3 seconds into the car but he THINKS the customer would not like that setup, he could be wrong and Porsche might have to retune that one to the faster setup.

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Whoopsy said:
WR said in an interview that he didn't tune the 997TT for absolute speed, he made it more livable and comfortable on the street in keeping with the GT classification, it could very well be this 'soften up' setup that people are having trouble with, they didn't dirve it as it was intended and keep mistaken the 997TT as a track oriented car. It's not.

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Crash said:

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mp said:

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MKSGR said:

You start speculating again without proper knowledge of the facts SportAuto mentions in the recent issue that the 2s better time was achieved on a car with a modified setup (meaning a different setup than the Supertest 997TT had).

BTW: Please discontinue repeating stuff like "we all know he is well underachieving driving the 997TT". We are not in the Kindergarten here and the patience of the well informed Rennteam community should not be tested beyond a certain limit The quality of this board suffers if such unfounded and unqualified statements are posted again and again.

It would appear you have good knowledge of SA's Supertest. Did H.V.S. use PSM or didn't he? Could the greater than usual difference in lap times between SA and Porsche's official claim boil down to the Turbo's PSM deficiencies? IMO, it's hard to think Porsche would deliberately "lie" about its vehicles' performance - when they are usually conservative, even about their power ratings.

By the way, with all due respect, just because one magazine (SA) makes a claim, doesn't mean everyone on this forum "must" agree - no matter how good their track record is. Some of us take different approaches in evaluating cars - and that should be just fine IMO.

Sorry to beat a dead horse.

mp, Porsche probably weren't lying about the performance, but getting a 7:49 out of the car is damn near impossible without making dozens of practice laps and knowing the car inside-out (like WR does). That being said, the car is riding on Pilot Sport Cups and when you replace those with regular tyres, even the Sport Auto 996TT time would compare with the 997TT, driven by WR (if you accept the claim that semi-slicks get you an additional 5-10 seconds - 7:49 vs. 7:56). Anyway, I'd much rather take the word of a man who is an accomplished driver and can almost match the times of one of the best drivers in the world over a naysayer who just happens to disagree. That being said, I would love to get one regardless of its NS performance, but discrediting such an authority on nothing but ramblings of an individual just seems unfair.

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Whoopsy said:

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MKSGR said:


So you are allowed to doubt Porsche but we are not allowed to doubt SA?

You are 100% right on this.

You cannot expect to be taken serious when talking about a topic you obviously have no clue about

Your posts are a waste of server space. Sorry, but I don't have the patience to repeat my points again and again.

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Crash said:

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Whoopsy said:

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MKSGR said:

You start speculating again without proper knowledge of the facts SportAuto mentions in the recent issue that the 2s better time was achieved on a car with a modified setup (meaning a different setup than the Supertest 997TT had).

BTW: Please discontinue repeating stuff like "we all know he is well underachieving driving the 997TT". We are not in the Kindergarten here and the patience of the well informed Rennteam community should not be tested beyond a certain limit The quality of this board suffers if such unfounded and unqualified statements are posted again and again.

And you are the one properly informed? Please. You keep quoting SA like it's the bible but you do not know for certain HOW SA test their cars and under WHAT condition. You keep saying they did published how they test before but that was so long ago that a lot of the condition could have changed. Heck a test in the spring time could very well be different than one taken in the middle of summer even in the same car. If SA test criteria is really strict, why don't they post their criteria on their website?

Just as you are doubtful of Prosche's claims, there are others like me who are doubtful of SA's claim. So you are allowed to doubt Porsche but we are not allowed to doubt SA? Now that's some childish behaviour. This is a internet forum and there will be all sorts of different views, we tolerate your narrowed minded opinions, we tolerated Nick sour remarks but somehow you don't want people to doubt your idol HvS?

SA can claim whatever they want without fear of lawsuits but Porsche is liable to be sue if their claims are false. That's the difference why Porsche's claim is more reliable. Plus Porsche had someone who know the car intimately to do the tests.

The cars may hav a differet setup, but a 2 second differece on a lap time of 7:54 is only 0.4%, miniscule consider the track length. It could very well have come from temperature, track condition, better line out of a corner or whatever combinations of factors other than a different setup.

HvS have a log lists of cars he tested and most of them he drove well, but can you not accept that he might be less accomplished in a awd rear engine-ed 997TT which is 'tricky' at the limit? HvS is not god and there will be a car configuration that he cannot handle, just like Michael Jordan is great in basketball, but he is not as good in baseball or golf, he still plays the other 2 sports well but just not as good as he is in basketball.

Fact is, this is not 'HvS-is-my-idol-and-I-will-not-question-his-skills board', the big difference between his time and the factory time is what brought me to question his skill in a 997TT. You have as much rights in questioning the factory time as I have in questioning HvS's skills in a 997TT.

Whoopsy, Horst has handled the GT2 around the NS as fast as Walter. That speaks volumes of his skills. Also, RC was complaining about the car's handling attributes long before the Supertest was published, when we still expected a sub 7:50 time. The sheer fact that Porsche had redesigned the PTM setup and had Sport Auto retest the car speaks volumes and pretty much confirms Markus' claims. Porsche screwed up with the setup and now they're fixing it. Tell me, does a man who drove a CGT at 7:32 on the NS (without hitting a wall while trying) qualify as an objective arbiter or not?

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mp said:

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MKSGR said:

You start speculating again without proper knowledge of the facts SportAuto mentions in the recent issue that the 2s better time was achieved on a car with a modified setup (meaning a different setup than the Supertest 997TT had).

BTW: Please discontinue repeating stuff like "we all know he is well underachieving driving the 997TT". We are not in the Kindergarten here and the patience of the well informed Rennteam community should not be tested beyond a certain limit The quality of this board suffers if such unfounded and unqualified statements are posted again and again.

It would appear you have good knowledge of SA's Supertest. Did H.V.S. use PSM or didn't he? Could the greater than usual difference in lap times between SA and Porsche's official claim boil down to the Turbo's PSM deficiencies? IMO, it's hard to think Porsche would deliberately "lie" about its vehicles' performance - when they are usually conservative, even about their power ratings.

By the way, with all due respect, just because one magazine (SA) makes a claim, doesn't mean everyone on this forum "must" agree - no matter how good their track record is. Some of us take different approaches in evaluating cars - and that should be just fine IMO.

Sorry to beat a dead horse.

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Whoopsy said:

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Crash said:
What I have been claiming all along is that HvS because of his personal limits never fully exploited the car. I have never question his skills on other type of car configurations, in fact, he looks most promising in midengine cars judging by his times, I am just saying rear engine awd is not his specialty.

OMG, OMG, OMG

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MKSGR said:

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mp said:

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MKSGR said:

You start speculating again without proper knowledge of the facts SportAuto mentions in the recent issue that the 2s better time was achieved on a car with a modified setup (meaning a different setup than the Supertest 997TT had).

BTW: Please discontinue repeating stuff like "we all know he is well underachieving driving the 997TT". We are not in the Kindergarten here and the patience of the well informed Rennteam community should not be tested beyond a certain limit The quality of this board suffers if such unfounded and unqualified statements are posted again and again.

It would appear you have good knowledge of SA's Supertest. Did H.V.S. use PSM or didn't he? Could the greater than usual difference in lap times between SA and Porsche's official claim boil down to the Turbo's PSM deficiencies? IMO, it's hard to think Porsche would deliberately "lie" about its vehicles' performance - when they are usually conservative, even about their power ratings.

By the way, with all due respect, just because one magazine (SA) makes a claim, doesn't mean everyone on this forum "must" agree - no matter how good their track record is. Some of us take different approaches in evaluating cars - and that should be just fine IMO.

Sorry to beat a dead horse.

Valid point. However, the 997TT Supertest quotes that the car was tested "according to the Supertest standards, i.e. with de-activated PSM" (page 25)

P.S.: Everybody is allowed to disagree with everything - as long as this is based on suffiicient background knowledge and sound arguments

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KresoF1 said:
GT2 is really great car IMHO but, 7.31min(or even faster) time of W.Rohrl do not mean anything to me. Final judgement for me will be SA Supertest(but, also track test on Oschersleben by Auto Bild Sportscar edition)...

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Whoopsy said:
Markus, now you are really being childish doing personal attacks. Don't think that was called for but o well, different people have different ways of expressing their anger, whatever floats your boat. If you want to continue the prsonal attacks, you are welcome to continue do it using pm instead of wasting thread spaces.

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AUM said:
Let's see if we can find some common ground without resorting to personal attacks.


6. Please remember that manufacturer claims are marketing tools and cannot be taken too seriously.