Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: What is yr Nuernburg ring time ? - Page1

Sep 25, 2007 2:25:53 AM

BjoernB: Rennteam Master; Loc: Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 4100, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 19, 2004

What is yr Nuernburg ring time ?

Reading all those posts about the GT2 and comparisons to TT's and reasons and disbeliefs of the times achieved I wanted to post a question of who might be the quickest (honest

) fellow rennteamer to get a comparison between a cars capability and the real world...
I for my part have only joined in a 964RS a couple of times with a def. + 9 min time and some traffic (handstopped) and it scared the hell out of me. So what it yr time ?

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Sep 25, 2007 5:39:02 AM

pierre: Veteran; Loc: there , Switzerland; Posts: 1192, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 7, 2002; Reply to: BjoernB

Re: What is yr Nuernburg ring time ?

Are you talking BTG time or full Nordschleife?

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Sep 25, 2007 5:45:36 AM

Moogle: Rennteam Master; Loc: Bay Area , United States; Posts: 5019, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 9, 2003; Reply to: pierre

Re: What is yr Nuernburg ring time ?

I've broken into the 8:xx minutes, on a very clear day at a private trackdays, but yes, it is a VERY scary place.

Drove on a public day once, will never do it again. Far too dangerous and way too many inexperienced people and random vehicles /etc.

People seem to blatantly break the rules, videocameras/etc, trying to prove themselves.

Lot's of poorly equipped cars and many very inexperienced drivers. The place seems to be overrun these days, which explains the climbing accident/fatality rates.

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Sep 25, 2007 4:36:30 PM

MKW: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Palo Alto and North Lake Tahoe , United States; Posts: 2491, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 22, 2002; Reply to: Moogle

Re: What is yr Nuernburg ring time ?

I would bet Micheal Schumacher, HvS, Walter Rohrl, etc., driving a 4 cylinder delivery van will whip anyone on this board drving any street legal unmodded supercar of their choice in a match race on the Ring.
At the end of the day, let's just enjoy the existence of all these cars , not raising our blood pressures " internet bench racing" over a few seconds on that famous 15 mile drive !

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Sep 25, 2007 4:59:49 PM

Porsche-Jeck: Rennteam Master; Loc: Rheinland , Germany; Posts: 4856, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2005; Reply to: BjoernB

Re: What is yr Nuernburg ring time ?

Here is a (random) list of some hobby-racers

with various cars/bikes

http://bridgetogantry.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=section&id=4&Itemid=28

As a rule of thumb I'd say:

10 min.: you're just starting to feel the "flow"
9 min: nice - IMO not achievable for a novice (whatever the car...)
< 9 min: pretty fast (I'm still working on it

- though not with a 997 TT

)
8 min: sounds like a pro

Of course I have to agree with MKW

Mind you of the famous lap Sabine Schmitz did with a Ford transit

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg4a1rc4Xjk

I like this remark on the BTG website, especially the reference to the moonphase

"Note: The new calculated power to weight ratio is only as accurate as the data supplied with the claim. The lower the number, the faster the vehicle. Theoretically. The reason the higher numbers can be faster than the lower numbers is driver/tyres/suspension/moonphase."

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Sep 25, 2007 5:33:31 PM

MKW: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Palo Alto and North Lake Tahoe , United States; Posts: 2491, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 22, 2002; Reply to: Porsche-Jeck

Re: What is yr Nuernburg ring time ?

Quote:
Porsche-Jeck said:

Of course I have to agree with MKW Mind you of the famous lap Sabine Schmitz did with a Ford transit

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg4a1rc4Xjk

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Sep 25, 2007 5:57:29 PM

Porsche-Jeck: Rennteam Master; Loc: Rheinland , Germany; Posts: 4856, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2005; Reply to: BjoernB

Re: What is yr Nuernburg ring time ?

Quote:
BjoernB said:
who might be the quickest (honest ) fellow rennteamer

Sergini seems to do quite o.k.

http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=374297&page=&fpart=1&vc=1

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Sep 25, 2007 6:16:05 PM

WBH: Expert; Loc: CA; Posts: 1963, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 2, 2004; Reply to: MKW

Re: What is yr Nuernburg ring time ?

Quote:
MKW said:
I would bet Micheal Schumacher, HvS, Walter Rohrl, etc., driving a 4 cylinder delivery van will whip anyone on this board drving any street legal unmodded supercar of their choice in a match race on the Ring.
At the end of the day, let's just enjoy the existence of all these cars , not raising our blood pressures " internet bench racing" over a few seconds on that famous 15 mile drive !

Well said...

Also would suspect most guys who can afford $150K+ cars tend to have decent risk/reward judgment, exercised in many settings, incl driving...whether urban traffic/derestricted AB/track/mtn twisties....and have little interest in approaching near limits of perf/safety of any car and risking own life/health.....

Basic Darwinian selection....they don't hand out certain cars and occupations to just anyone....

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Sep 25, 2007 6:29:46 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: Porsche-Jeck

Re: What is yr Nuernburg ring time ?

Quote:
Porsche-Jeck said:
Of course I have to agree with MKW Mind you of the famous lap Sabine Schmitz did with a Ford transit

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg4a1rc4Xjk

Is it just me or did watching a chick with a german accent jumping up and down and squealing "faster" make anybody else quite content?

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Sep 25, 2007 9:36:24 PM

Whoopsy: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Vancouver,BC , Canada; Posts: 16151, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 19, 2006; Reply to: Crash

Re: What is yr Nuernburg ring time ?

haha good one. wishful thinking that they will all act like that.

On second thought no, my half sisters are half german and to think they are acting that way is pretty disgusting :P

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Sep 26, 2007 5:15:37 AM

AUM: Veteran; Loc: Germany; Posts: 1203, Gallery; Registered on: May 2, 2006; Reply to: MKW

Re: What is yr Nuernburg ring time ?

Quote:
MKW said:
I would bet Micheal Schumacher, HvS, Walter Rohrl, etc., driving a 4 cylinder delivery van will whip anyone on this board drving any street legal unmodded supercar of their choice in a match race on the Ring.

I've tracked many hundreds of laps at the Ring in the last two years but I never time them. I just drive fast and have fun competing with the best cars of the day.

But I bet any experienced amateur Ringer in a TT, GT3, CSL or even an M3 would be far ahead of any pro in a delivery van. BTG laps of around 8.00 are not unusual for experienced amateurs. The key to faster Ring times is track knowledge based on lots of experience.

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Sep 26, 2007 7:54:47 AM

Porsche-Jeck: Rennteam Master; Loc: Rheinland , Germany; Posts: 4856, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2005; Reply to: AUM

Re: What is yr Nuernburg ring time ?

Quote:
AUM said:
I just drive fast and have fun competing with the best cars of the day.

That's the correct approach - nobody is waiting with a winner's cup at the gantry

Agree that the delivery van example is a bit too extreme - It just illustrates the essence of the wisdom that track knowledge beats HP

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Sep 26, 2007 7:25:09 PM

MKW: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Palo Alto and North Lake Tahoe , United States; Posts: 2491, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 22, 2002; Reply to: Porsche-Jeck

Re: What is yr Nuernburg ring time ?

Quote:
Porsche-Jeck said:
Quote:
AUM said:
I just drive fast and have fun competing with the best cars of the day.

That's the correct approach - nobody is waiting with a winner's cup at the gantry
Agree that the delivery van example is a bit too extreme - It just illustrates the essence of the wisdom that track knowledge beats HP

Nerves play a part , too. You may have a faster solo flying lap on an empty track vs a pro in a van( alright , how about a generic sedan) , but refer to my first post : I referred to a MATCH race . With Schumacher playfully tapping on your bumper in every corner - sooner or later you'll probably kiss a tree !

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Sep 27, 2007 3:10:22 AM

BjoernB: Rennteam Master; Loc: Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 4100, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 19, 2004; Reply to: BjoernB

Re: What is yr Nuernburg ring time ?

Well - thanks for all the comments but in general it confirms to me (besides Sergini - WOW

) that most of us despite having the "equipment" will never be able or willing to explore the full potential of our cars - t4 the discussions about Ferrari,Porsches,Corvettes being faster or not are pretty questionable.

- unless in hands of a true racer.

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Sep 27, 2007 1:38:55 PM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8234, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: BjoernB

Re: What is yr Nuernburg ring time ?

There are a couple more members who drive quite competitively, some even competing in VLN races.

After all, I absolutely share your point of view. See those published factory or magazine laptimes as an absolute performance limit to achieve with these cars, some people might be better of never to make such an attempt. Furthermore I stand by my previous comments that there is no room for mistakes on the Nordschleife, especially driven by a beginner.

The more you will get involved in those subjects, the more you will realize how much effort (man & machine) is needed to achieve such a laptime - and how many variables are influencing the result.

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Sep 27, 2007 2:27:49 PM

dreamcar: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Hampshire , United Kingdom; Posts: 8797, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 19, 2004; Reply to: Porsche-Jeck

Re: What is yr Nuernburg ring time ?

Classic tip from Sabine Schmitz

"Never enter Karussell when on the brakes! I have gone round there on the roof, I know what I'm talking about."

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Sep 27, 2007 2:49:45 PM

pierre: Veteran; Loc: there , Switzerland; Posts: 1192, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 7, 2002; Reply to: Ferdie

Re: What is yr Nuernburg ring time ?

Quote:
Ferdie said:
After all, I absolutely share your point of view. See those published factory or magazine laptimes as an absolute performance limit to achieve with these cars, some people might be better of never to make such an attempt. Furthermore I stand by my previous comments that there is no room for mistakes on the Nordschleife, especially driven by a beginner.

I totally agree! And beginners should avoid the public days and start learning the track by attending an organized course there. Just my 2 cents...

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Sep 27, 2007 3:06:06 PM

AUM: Veteran; Loc: Germany; Posts: 1203, Gallery; Registered on: May 2, 2006; Reply to: MKW

Re: What is yr Nuernburg ring time ?

Quote:
MKW said:
Quote:
Porsche-Jeck said:
Quote:
AUM said:
I just drive fast and have fun competing with the best cars of the day.

That's the correct approach - nobody is waiting with a winner's cup at the gantry
Agree that the delivery van example is a bit too extreme - It just illustrates the essence of the wisdom that track knowledge beats HP

Nerves play a part , too. You may have a faster solo flying lap on an empty track vs a pro in a van( alright , how about a generic sedan) , but refer to my first post : I referred to a MATCH race . With Schumacher playfully tapping on your bumper in every corner - sooner or later you'll probably kiss a tree !

Pros and experienced amateurs are less than one minute apart in the same cars.

If a pro is driving a 10.00-minute car at 100% his lap time will be 10.00 minutes. If an experienced amateur is driving a 7.50 car at 90% his lap time will be less than 9 minutes.

MS would never get near the bumper of a car that is two minutes faster (driven by an experienced amateur).

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Sep 27, 2007 4:18:09 PM

Porsche-Jeck: Rennteam Master; Loc: Rheinland , Germany; Posts: 4856, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2005; Reply to: AUM

Re: What is yr Nuernburg ring time ?

Quote:
AUM said:
Pros and experienced amateurs are less than one minute apart in the same cars.

Yes, actually this "one minute rule" makes sense - I could verify it myself as a passenger of experienced drivers, but all of them had a couple of hundred laps under their belt (some of them even with a 4 digit lap-count

).

But if you say "experienced" it could be misleading: if one is experienced and competent in driving his car (even if he's experienced driving it on normal tracks like HHR etc.) that doesn't say much about achievable NBR-times. Finally all the fast amateurs agree that you need at least 50 laps before you really know what you're doing... and 50 laps translates into more than 1,000 km.

I'm just adding this to prevent anyone reading this thread and feeling "experienced and competent" (and maybe he actually IS experienced mastering his car at the limit) from trying to do something stupid driving to the Ring on a sunny Sunday afternoon, setting his stopwatch at the bridge near Antoniusbuche with the Supertest-laptime in his head....

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Sep 27, 2007 5:09:40 PM

AUM: Veteran; Loc: Germany; Posts: 1203, Gallery; Registered on: May 2, 2006; Reply to: Porsche-Jeck

Re: What is yr Nuernburg ring time ?

Quote:
Porsche-Jeck said:
Quote:
AUM said:
Pros and experienced amateurs are less than one minute apart in the same cars.

Yes, actually this "one minute rule" makes sense - I could verify it myself as a passenger of experienced drivers, but all of them had a couple of hundred laps under their belt (some of them even with a 4 digit lap-count ).

But if you say "experienced" it could be misleading: if one is experienced and competent in driving his car (even if he's experienced driving it on normal tracks like HHR etc.) that doesn't say much about achievable NBR-times. Finally all the fast amateurs agree that you need at least 50 laps before you really know what you're doing... and 50 laps translates into more than 1,000 km.

I'm just adding this to prevent anyone reading this thread and feeling "experienced and competent" (and maybe he actually IS experienced mastering his car at the limit) from trying to do something stupid driving to the Ring on a sunny Sunday afternoon, setting his stopwatch at the bridge near Antoniusbuche with the Supertest-laptime in his head....

Yes indeed.

Experienced amateur at the Ring to me begins at about 100 laps or 2000 km. But fast (8.30 in an 8.00-minute car) and safe Ring knowledge takes most drivers many hundreds of laps to achieve.

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Sep 27, 2007 5:15:12 PM

AUM: Veteran; Loc: Germany; Posts: 1203, Gallery; Registered on: May 2, 2006; Reply to: AUM

Re: What is yr Nuernburg ring time ?

Here are some amateur BTG videos and times.

http://bridgetogantry.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=section&id=4&Itemid=28

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