Crown

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Whoopsy said:
997 Turbo is a extremely fast car but it needs an expert to extract 10/10 out of it, HvS has already proved that he is incapable of extracting 10/10, what makes people think he will be able to extract 10/10 out of the GT2? If HvS is unable to extract 10/10 out of every car he has driven, then his list is meaingless as the comparisons will all be compromised, one car will be compared at 10/10 and another will be at 9/10 or 8/10.

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KresoF1 said:


Last thing-997 GT2 is faster in 0-300km/h then 599 GTB...

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Whoopsy said:If HvS is unable to extract 10/10 out of every car he has driven, then his list is meaingless as the comparisons will all be compromised, one car will be compared at 10/10 and another will be at 9/10 or 8/10.

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eclou said:
The RUF 550 TT 0-300kph time is 30-32 seconds. The Gt2 time should be less since there is 1)less drivetrain losses 2)less weight

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svtrader1 said:

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KresoF1 said:


Last thing-997 GT2 is faster in 0-300km/h then 599 GTB...

This is utter nonsense! Just Porsche marketing in overdrive!

The 599 0-300kph time is 30 sec. The 911 turbo time is over 40 sec. with 480 hp and now Porsche wants everybody to believe with only 50hp more - the GT2 can knock more than sec. off the turbo's time.

Time for a reality check Porsche.

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KresoF1 said:
Markus,
GT2 0-300km/h is 33.0s and longer gearing is not that much longer since at 329km/h(or even little bit more) car is almost at the limiter...

Oh, you forgot again that 997 Turbo is AWD and use two differantials(front + rear). Rear tire size is different etc. These cars are pretty different but, most people here is comparing them...

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Crash said:

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svtrader1 said:

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KresoF1 said:


Last thing-997 GT2 is faster in 0-300km/h then 599 GTB...

This is utter nonsense! Just Porsche marketing in overdrive!

The 599 0-300kph time is 30 sec. The 911 turbo time is over 40 sec. with 480 hp and now Porsche wants everybody to believe with only 50hp more - the GT2 can knock more than sec. off the turbo's time.

Time for a reality check Porsche.

I seriously doubt the validity of the 599GTB 0-300 km/h time. That car was quicker to 200 km/h than the Enzo. I'd say the time will be around 32-33 seconds for a production example.

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MKSGR said:

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Whoopsy said:If HvS is unable to extract 10/10 out of every car he has driven, then his list is meaingless as the comparisons will all be compromised, one car will be compared at 10/10 and another will be at 9/10 or 8/10.

The question is: is it likely that a skilled driver like him will only get 80% out of one car but 100% out of another. And also: how likely is it that he (who has driven each and every Porsche 1000 times on the NBR over the last 20 years or so) gets 80% out of a Porsche but 100% our of a Z06, Ferrari, Lamborghini...

Guys: your thinking (turbosteff included in particular ) is wishful thinking and is unlikely to have much in common with reality

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turbosteff said:

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MKSGR said:

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Whoopsy said:If HvS is unable to extract 10/10 out of every car he has driven, then his list is meaingless as the comparisons will all be compromised, one car will be compared at 10/10 and another will be at 9/10 or 8/10.

The question is: is it likely that a skilled driver like him will only get 80% out of one car but 100% out of another. And also: how likely is it that he (who has driven each and every Porsche 1000 times on the NBR over the last 20 years or so) gets 80% out of a Porsche but 100% our of a Z06, Ferrari, Lamborghini...

Guys: your thinking (turbosteff included in particular ) is wishful thinking and is unlikely to have much in common with reality

In the case of your godfather HvS you are not objective and bullheaded. With the proven lap time of the GT2 your arguments in your crusade against the Porsche company sounds more and more strange...(at this time I write this not Porsche addicted but with the pleasant anticipation of maybe ordering the 430 scuderia next week )

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MKSGR said:
The question is: is it likely that a skilled driver like him will only get 80% out of one car but 100% out of another. And also: how likely is it that he (who has driven each and every Porsche 1000 times on the NBR over the last 20 years or so) gets 80% out of a Porsche but 100% our of a Z06, Ferrari, Lamborghini...

Guys: your thinking (turbosteff included in particular ) is wishful thinking and is unlikely to have much in common with reality

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Whoopsy said:

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MKSGR said:
The question is: is it likely that a skilled driver like him will only get 80% out of one car but 100% out of another. And also: how likely is it that he (who has driven each and every Porsche 1000 times on the NBR over the last 20 years or so) gets 80% out of a Porsche but 100% our of a Z06, Ferrari, Lamborghini...

Guys: your thinking (turbosteff included in particular ) is wishful thinking and is unlikely to have much in common with reality

EXACTLY MY POINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If HvS can only get 80% out of the Porsche and 100% out of a Z06, that means he is incapable of making a fair comparison, his list is biased and compromised. He did not represent the true performance of the car and a lap time by someone else more capable should be used instead.

Rear engines car known to NOT be easy to drive, unlike the more forgiving mid-engine and front engine cars. It really takes an expert with intimate knowledge in order to extract 10/10 out of it. It's what seperate the man from the boys with HvS in the boy catagory and WR in the former.

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KresoF1 said:
Markus,

You are lately(well last 12 months at least) hard on Porsche...

BUT, marketing BS example are all over car industry IMHO... Look at Audi R8 for example. Audi claimed Ring time of 7.55min and Horst "Nicht Immer so Schnell" von Saurma achived only 8.04min... R8 fans still do not belive in von Saurma time and praise EVO Bedford track time(pure BS CRAP BTW IMHO)... Recently von Slowly drove new M3 on the Ring and belive it or not time was something like 8.03min(CUP+ tires)! So, what is right now going on in R8 owners mind? Probably something like: "Audi is even worst then Porsche in marketing crap...".

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Whoopsy said:
Hmm, I kinda start seeing a trend, make 'god' HvS's weakness is driving AWD cars, the extra traction just confuses his brain.

I skipped the 996 Turbo because I don't think it has enough performance for the price, even when I absolutely LOVED that car's styling and especially the headlamp design. I hated the bug eyes on the 997 Turbo but I still bought one because of the improved performance.

I do not and probably will not go even to 7/10 of the car and I probably used maybe 3/10 of it everyday. But within that 3/10 I felt there was a major improvement over the 996 Turbo and THAT was the reason I bought it.

For the pundits like MKSGR, what's your beef? The car is super fast but only in the right hands, and don't quote HvS because he has already shown the world that he is incapable of extracting a good time out of the 997 Turbo when WR has no problem going fast in one.

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MKSGR said:

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Whoopsy said:
Hmm, I kinda start seeing a trend, make 'god' HvS's weakness is driving AWD cars, the extra traction just confuses his brain.

I skipped the 996 Turbo because I don't think it has enough performance for the price, even when I absolutely LOVED that car's styling and especially the headlamp design. I hated the bug eyes on the 997 Turbo but I still bought one because of the improved performance.

I do not and probably will not go even to 7/10 of the car and I probably used maybe 3/10 of it everyday. But within that 3/10 I felt there was a major improvement over the 996 Turbo and THAT was the reason I bought it.

For the pundits like MKSGR, what's your beef? The car is super fast but only in the right hands, and don't quote HvS because he has already shown the world that he is incapable of extracting a good time out of the 997 Turbo when WR has no problem going fast in one.

Your logic has a serious flaw. Why was HvS so quick in the 996TT? Why was he so quick in the Gallardo? Why was he so quick in the LP640?

You don' honestly believe that he is quick in all the above AWD cars but suddenly screws it in the 997TT.

Again, you and turbosteff try to justify the 997TT because you bought one. I understand that it is hard to accept the obvious in that situation. BTW: there are a few 997TT owners on Renntean which fully accept the critical arguments regarding the 997TT AWD concept. And some of them use way more than 3/10 of the car's potential

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Crash said:

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MKSGR said:

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Whoopsy said:
Hmm, I kinda start seeing a trend, make 'god' HvS's weakness is driving AWD cars, the extra traction just confuses his brain.

I skipped the 996 Turbo because I don't think it has enough performance for the price, even when I absolutely LOVED that car's styling and especially the headlamp design. I hated the bug eyes on the 997 Turbo but I still bought one because of the improved performance.

I do not and probably will not go even to 7/10 of the car and I probably used maybe 3/10 of it everyday. But within that 3/10 I felt there was a major improvement over the 996 Turbo and THAT was the reason I bought it.

For the pundits like MKSGR, what's your beef? The car is super fast but only in the right hands, and don't quote HvS because he has already shown the world that he is incapable of extracting a good time out of the 997 Turbo when WR has no problem going fast in one.

Your logic has a serious flaw. Why was HvS so quick in the 996TT? Why was he so quick in the Gallardo? Why was he so quick in the LP640?

You don' honestly believe that he is quick in all the above AWD cars but suddenly screws it in the 997TT.

Again, you and turbosteff try to justify the 997TT because you bought one. I understand that it is hard to accept the obvious in that situation. BTW: there are a few 997TT owners on Renntean which fully accept the critical arguments regarding the 997TT AWD concept. And some of them use way more than 3/10 of the car's potential

Markus, you forgot to mention that it's the 997TT that is hardly an improvement over the 996TT. I would wager that a 996TT X50 with the LSD and X73 would tear the 997TT a new rectum around the NS .

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Whoopsy said:
[...] It's like comparing my golf game with my wife's. [...]

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MKSGR said:

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Crash said:

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MKSGR said:

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Whoopsy said:
Hmm, I kinda start seeing a trend, make 'god' HvS's weakness is driving AWD cars, the extra traction just confuses his brain.

I skipped the 996 Turbo because I don't think it has enough performance for the price, even when I absolutely LOVED that car's styling and especially the headlamp design. I hated the bug eyes on the 997 Turbo but I still bought one because of the improved performance.

I do not and probably will not go even to 7/10 of the car and I probably used maybe 3/10 of it everyday. But within that 3/10 I felt there was a major improvement over the 996 Turbo and THAT was the reason I bought it.

For the pundits like MKSGR, what's your beef? The car is super fast but only in the right hands, and don't quote HvS because he has already shown the world that he is incapable of extracting a good time out of the 997 Turbo when WR has no problem going fast in one.

Your logic has a serious flaw. Why was HvS so quick in the 996TT? Why was he so quick in the Gallardo? Why was he so quick in the LP640?

You don' honestly believe that he is quick in all the above AWD cars but suddenly screws it in the 997TT.

Again, you and turbosteff try to justify the 997TT because you bought one. I understand that it is hard to accept the obvious in that situation. BTW: there are a few 997TT owners on Renntean which fully accept the critical arguments regarding the 997TT AWD concept. And some of them use way more than 3/10 of the car's potential

Markus, you forgot to mention that it's the 997TT that is hardly an improvement over the 996TT. I would wager that a 996TT X50 with the LSD and X73 would tear the 997TT a new rectum around the NS .

Absolutely correct.

The 997TT has (compared to the 996TT tested with a NBR time of 7:56 in 2000):

- 60hp more
- Cup tires that are (based on Porsche statements) up to 7s faster per NBR lap
- LSD
- same or slightly less weight
- new AWD.

The result of all this: 2s faster than the old 996TT... But hey, I forgot, it is just that HvS had a bad day when he tested the 997TT. The car is so much faster than its predecessor from the 90s

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Ziggy said:

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MKSGR said:

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Crash said:

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MKSGR said:

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Whoopsy said:
Hmm, I kinda start seeing a trend, make 'god' HvS's weakness is driving AWD cars, the extra traction just confuses his brain.

I skipped the 996 Turbo because I don't think it has enough performance for the price, even when I absolutely LOVED that car's styling and especially the headlamp design. I hated the bug eyes on the 997 Turbo but I still bought one because of the improved performance.

I do not and probably will not go even to 7/10 of the car and I probably used maybe 3/10 of it everyday. But within that 3/10 I felt there was a major improvement over the 996 Turbo and THAT was the reason I bought it.

For the pundits like MKSGR, what's your beef? The car is super fast but only in the right hands, and don't quote HvS because he has already shown the world that he is incapable of extracting a good time out of the 997 Turbo when WR has no problem going fast in one.

Your logic has a serious flaw. Why was HvS so quick in the 996TT? Why was he so quick in the Gallardo? Why was he so quick in the LP640?

You don' honestly believe that he is quick in all the above AWD cars but suddenly screws it in the 997TT.

Again, you and turbosteff try to justify the 997TT because you bought one. I understand that it is hard to accept the obvious in that situation. BTW: there are a few 997TT owners on Renntean which fully accept the critical arguments regarding the 997TT AWD concept. And some of them use way more than 3/10 of the car's potential

Markus, you forgot to mention that it's the 997TT that is hardly an improvement over the 996TT. I would wager that a 996TT X50 with the LSD and X73 would tear the 997TT a new rectum around the NS .

Absolutely correct.

The 997TT has (compared to the 996TT tested with a NBR time of 7:56 in 2000):

- 60hp more
- Cup tires that are (based on Porsche statements) up to 7s faster per NBR lap
- LSD
- same or slightly less weight
- new AWD.

The result of all this: 2s faster than the old 996TT... But hey, I forgot, it is just that HvS had a bad day when he tested the 997TT. The car is so much faster than its predecessor from the 90s

Your argumentation (Crash and MKSGR) make once more perfect sense but I think Kreso got the info from a Porsche engineer that the 996tt's 7.56 time never really happened and is just a "dreamed" lap time.

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MKSGR said:

Hmmm. The problem is: 997TT has AWD, PSM etc. etc. Should be much easier to drive compared to RWD Z06 etc. as you state correctly.

Now, you guys argue that HvS had problems with the AWD 997TT but not with all these RWD sportscars like CGT, 599GTB, old GT2, old GT3...

Sorry, this is not logical at all

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Ferdie said:
Every human sitting behind the wheel of a car has some good and bad days, not to forget the track conditions at each particular day. See these numbers as an orientation,

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RR4 said:
This argument is going nowhere until someone tells me if Auto Sport - with HVS - are lapping the Ring AND timing each car they post on their TOP RING TIMES always on a CLOSED course or always on a public day, AND always in the same conditions? If they aren't then the times that are posted by Auto Sport mean nothing.

There is absolutely no statistical significance to any of the times, in the least, if they are not identifying the track conditions of each lap time they post AND whether they were performed on a closed track, or a public day track.

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Porsche-Jeck said:

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Ferdie said:
Every human sitting behind the wheel of a car has some good and bad days, not to forget the track conditions at each particular day. See these numbers as an orientation,

BTW obviously HvS had some similar thoughts himself after he published the 997TT Supertest. In the recent Sportauto copy he actually referred to this test in the (Techart) GT Street Supertest. He stated that he did another hot lap with another 997TT just to confirm his impressions - result: 2 sec. faster compared to the Supertest (2 sec. certainly is within the normal range of volatile lap-times).
He once more stated, that the 997TT showed some tumbling motion ("Taumelbewegung") at the limit - this tricky behaviour was absent (according to HvS) in the GT Street.

If I recall correctly RC also has reported some tricky behaviour of the car at the limit (abrupt change from understeer to oversteer or vice versa).

Forget about WR laptimes - the guy has been elected as "Driver of the Century" for some good reasons
I guess he is able to squeeze amazing laptimes even out of cars, which we mortal drivers would describe as "undriveable"

Check the vid showing him driving on NoS in the rain with a 997 GT3 on almost gone tyres and you know what I mean

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=E93ag4Rp-Gg&eurl=