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Re: Boxster sales drop sharply
VinceSF, I'm in a similar situation with a production date in the winter/spring of next year, and I too thought about the now-or-later debate.
My question is this: Do you think a longer wait and potentially ugly "new" styling tweaks are worth (an assumed) 25hp more?? Yeah, the car will be a hair faster, but would it be any more enjoyable??
For me, the bottom line is that I like the boxster s the way it is. A more expensive, newer and faster car there will always be; I'll stick with what I like!
My question is this: Do you think a longer wait and potentially ugly "new" styling tweaks are worth (an assumed) 25hp more?? Yeah, the car will be a hair faster, but would it be any more enjoyable??
For me, the bottom line is that I like the boxster s the way it is. A more expensive, newer and faster car there will always be; I'll stick with what I like!
Re: Boxster sales drop sharply
awai08:
I really have no idea as to what the '09 will look like, as it seems a minor tweak in styling. From what I have seen, I like the current styling more. I am intrigued that you have a build-date for an '08 for winter/spring of next year, as I have been speculating that the '09 build dates will probably start in Feb. or March, but I'm just speculating. My build date for an '08 is December 2007 and a delivery of Jan./Feb.
I really have no idea as to what the '09 will look like, as it seems a minor tweak in styling. From what I have seen, I like the current styling more. I am intrigued that you have a build-date for an '08 for winter/spring of next year, as I have been speculating that the '09 build dates will probably start in Feb. or March, but I'm just speculating. My build date for an '08 is December 2007 and a delivery of Jan./Feb.
Re: Boxster sales drop sharply
The 997 launched before the 987, so why shouldn't the facelift be staggered too ?
There are loads of unsold cars in the UK showrroms at present - i wouldn't be surprised is PCGB decreased its orders on the factory to help move current cars and then got a glut of facelift build slots, whatever time that is.
There are loads of unsold cars in the UK showrroms at present - i wouldn't be surprised is PCGB decreased its orders on the factory to help move current cars and then got a glut of facelift build slots, whatever time that is.
Re: Boxster sales drop sharply
Quote:
nberry said:
The Soprano comment that the Boxster is a girlie car has taken its toll. As long as Porsche continues to under power it and treat as a stepchild to the 911 it will continue to have sluggish sales.
Even with more power, it wouldn't keep up with 911 sales...simply because it is no 911 and people love to stick to famous names and numbers.
The problem of the Boxster is the same problem the Cayman has: for a two-seater Porsche "daily driver" for "ordinary people", it is TOO EXPENSIVE. My wife's Boxster S costs the same amount of money as a new BMW M3. Ouch.
My wife's next car will be the BMW 335i Cabriolet, simply because she needs the back seats for the kids and the Boxster S is too expensive if you look at what it offers. A good suspension setup isn't enough and the fact that the "regular" Boxster buyer is a woman, adolescent or a "youngtimer" doesn't really help either.
Re: Boxster sales drop sharply
Quote:
RC said:Quote:
nberry said:
The Soprano comment that the Boxster is a girlie car has taken its toll. As long as Porsche continues to under power it and treat as a stepchild to the 911 it will continue to have sluggish sales.
Even with more power, it wouldn't keep up with 911 sales...simply because it is no 911 and people love to stick to famous names and numbers.
The problem of the Boxster is the same problem the Cayman has: for a two-seater Porsche "daily driver" for "ordinary people", it is TOO EXPENSIVE. My wife's Boxster S costs the same amount of money as a new BMW M3. Ouch.
My wife's next car will be the BMW 335i Cabriolet, simply because she needs the back seats for the kids and the Boxster S is too expensive if you look at what it offers. A good suspension setup isn't enough and the fact that the "regular" Boxster buyer is a woman, adolescent or a "youngtimer" doesn't really help either.
Our wives think alike. Mine has told me the BMW Cab is her next purchase. She is thinking of the M3 but I am discouraging her. The 335i is plenty.
Re: Boxster sales drop sharply
Quote:
mcdelaug said:Quote:
berty987 said:
I think the only people that seriously ask those questions are ones that have never driven the 987 or that prefer the 911 for some psychological reasons (posing, status, childhood memories or aspirations). Only a very small minority seem to enjoy the challenge of mastering the 911's rear engine dynamics.
The 911 is a more engaging drive than a Boxster, that's what makes it better.
The Boxster does most things well, it's a 'best of breed', compared to the rest of the convertibles on the road. Other droptops come close and offer similar pleasures, but the 911 is unique, it has to be driven a certain way and is unlike any other modern car on sale today. That's why it's the daddy
Re: Boxster sales drop sharply
I had this dialog with someone today:
"Nice Porsche!"
"Thanks, it's a fun drive."
"What kind is it?"
"Boxster S"
"Well, it's still a Porsche!"
I had to laugh. These cars definitely have a stigma about them.
nberry, if it had been me and the (now ex) girlfriend about a month ago, we would probably have had the same conversation with you and you'd have made our day.
She and I both love the F430. Someday, someday...
"Nice Porsche!"
"Thanks, it's a fun drive."
"What kind is it?"
"Boxster S"
"Well, it's still a Porsche!"
I had to laugh. These cars definitely have a stigma about them.
nberry, if it had been me and the (now ex) girlfriend about a month ago, we would probably have had the same conversation with you and you'd have made our day.
She and I both love the F430. Someday, someday...
Sep 19, 2007 12:03:11 PM
- Martin Tyler
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Reply to:
RC
Re: Boxster sales drop sharply
Quote:
RC said:the fact that the "regular" Boxster buyer is a woman, adolescent or a "youngtimer" doesn't really help either.
That isnt the case in the UK from my experience.. is that really true in germany and the states or do people just like to think it is?
Sep 19, 2007 1:16:24 PM
- racerx
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Re: Boxster sales drop sharply
I think it was true in the beginning being a softtop and that created a stigma.
RC is right that it is too expensive as an entry level vehicle.
I sat in a cayman a while back when I testdrove a 997 c2s and I think the Cayman has a nicer interior.
What's it matter (except on resale) what others think as long as you enjoy it?
RC is right that it is too expensive as an entry level vehicle.
I sat in a cayman a while back when I testdrove a 997 c2s and I think the Cayman has a nicer interior.
What's it matter (except on resale) what others think as long as you enjoy it?
Sep 19, 2007 4:31:53 PM
- easy_rider911
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Re: Boxster sales drop sharply
Whilst I think the 911 has a more masculine appeal in the UK at least (probably 90:10), I don't think the Boxster has a 'mainly feminine' appeal. I think it's more accurate to say that the Boxster appeals to both sexes in the UK (probably 60:40).
It's unfair to criticise the Boxster for not being 'masculine enough' simply because it does appeal to some women. It is IMHO really unfair to criticise a car for not being 'masculine enough' just because its clientele are not overwhelmingly male.
It's unfair to criticise the Boxster for not being 'masculine enough' simply because it does appeal to some women. It is IMHO really unfair to criticise a car for not being 'masculine enough' just because its clientele are not overwhelmingly male.
Sep 19, 2007 4:37:57 PM
- Porsche-Jeck
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Re: Boxster sales drop sharply
Quote:
Martin Tyler said:Quote:
RC said:the fact that the "regular" Boxster buyer is a woman, adolescent or a "youngtimer" doesn't really help either.
That isnt the case in the UK from my experience.. is that really true in germany and the states or do people just like to think it is?
Martin, it's what some people think (image)
but it's not supported by facts 
For the US buyers' demographics as reported state 18% of buyers are females and the majority of buyers are 36-55 y/o.
I'm not sure about the RoW demographics but I'd say in my neck of the woods it should be quite similar.
In my region I definitely observe more women behind the wheel of a 911 (mostly cabs, but cab share is very high over here) than behind the wheel of a Boxster
Though (hard facts/actual demographics put aside) there is not doubt that the 911 wins the "image contest", which is important for a lot of buyers.
I for one don't care about the image thing and enjoy the superb driving fun with my car
There's no way I would swap my Boxey for a 40k premium to get a base 997 cab just to impress my neighbours
A GT3 would be another story - not for the image, which may be even a bit questionable due to the rear wing
but for the performance/driving fun.
As for the pricing: I agree with DFGA0001 that the cost/fun-factor for the Boxster S is excellent within P's product portfolio. IMO that's no contradiction to what RC said, because the image seekers who don't want to spend 911-money may stay away from the Boxster/Cayman and save some thousand bucks by buying a BMW/MB/Audi.
Sep 19, 2007 4:41:39 PM
- easy_rider911
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Re: Boxster sales drop sharply
I wish people would judge the car on its merits and not by the type of people that might actually buy it or wish to buy it. Otherwise, we could all fall into the following well known prejudices:
Bentley Continental GT: footballers, drug dealers, gangsta rappers
Merc SLK: hairdressers
Merc S Class: Presidents, military dictators, Colombian druglords
Aston Martin: James Bond wannabees
Porsche 911s: investment bankers spending their bonuses
BMW M3: pimps, drug pushers, thugs & general lowlife
Jaguar: boring middle aged Englishmen
Surely there is truth beyond these crude stereotypes?
Bentley Continental GT: footballers, drug dealers, gangsta rappers
Merc SLK: hairdressers
Merc S Class: Presidents, military dictators, Colombian druglords
Aston Martin: James Bond wannabees
Porsche 911s: investment bankers spending their bonuses
BMW M3: pimps, drug pushers, thugs & general lowlife
Jaguar: boring middle aged Englishmen
Surely there is truth beyond these crude stereotypes?
Sep 19, 2007 4:55:47 PM
- Porsche-Jeck
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Re: Boxster sales drop sharply
Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
Porsche 911s: investment bankers spending their bonuses
hahaha, you fit the image quite well, Easy
Just kidding of course, bud - I know you're a true enthusiast
, but - as stated before - the ups and downs of sportscar sales are not primarily driven by enthusiasts...
Sep 19, 2007 5:09:49 PM
- easy_rider911
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Re: Boxster sales drop sharply
LOL Actually, I see myself still as a lawyer first and foremost who just so happens to advise an investment bank... 
Sadly, the mainstream buyers are today driven to buy a particular car for all sorts of reasons e.g. "J Lo has one", "It will attract hot women", or, worse still, "I don't care what car it is as long as it matches my handbag"...uugghhh!
Actually, I see myself still as a lawyer first and foremost who just so happens to advise an investment bank...
Sadly, the mainstream buyers are today driven to buy a particular car for all sorts of reasons e.g. "J Lo has one", "It will attract hot women", or, worse still, "I don't care what car it is as long as it matches my handbag"...uugghhh!
Sep 19, 2007 5:53:38 PM
- wtsnet
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Sep 19, 2007 5:56:33 PM
- Porsche-Jeck
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Re: Boxster sales drop sharply
Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
LOL
Imagewise; is this better or even worse ?
As for the "attracting hot women" remark: next time you visit us please advise my better half, that hot women will find a GT3 just disgusting (the ugly wing, the terrible noise), otherwise she might revoke her O.K. to get one in the future (and please don't laugh while you do so - I know you can do it. Lawyers are good at such things)
Sep 19, 2007 6:10:35 PM
- Ferdie
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Re: Boxster sales drop sharply
Someone from Audi told me once, that the A8 is regarded as a pimp's car in some markets. Quite unlikely in Germany, I would say. That should be proof enough to realize that stereotypes work in a rather limited surrounding.
Apart from that the Mercedes SLK is far from being a hairdressers' car in Germany.
True, but...
Apart from that the Mercedes SLK is far from being a hairdressers' car in Germany.
Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
I wish people would judge the car on its merits and not by the type of people that might actually buy it or wish to buy it.
True, but...
Re: Boxster sales drop sharply
People naturally find comfort and simplicity in "conventional wisdom" and stereotypical classifications since no intellectual effort is required. To appreciate the Boxster or Cayman as true Porsches and see beyond "the numbers" (price a/o performance figures) one needs to have acquired some background in Porsche history to provide perspective and continuity within the marque. Since the 911 is instantly recognized by even the "peasantry" as essentially synonymous with Porsche no neuronal effort is required to peg it.
Sep 19, 2007 8:02:48 PM
- easy_rider911
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Re: Boxster sales drop sharply
LOL
Which one to call myself? Lawyer v investment banker....actually Porsche-Jeck, the former is the lesser of 2 evils here in the UK. People seem to hate lawyers just a little bit less here than investment bankers. After all, people hate lawyers but recognise that they do need lawyers from time to time whereas nobody thinks they NEED investment bankers so when they hear about investment bankers flashing their cash, it makes them jealous and filled with contempt.
As for Mrs. Porsche-Jeck, sure, I'll tell her anything you want just as long as you take me as a passenger around the 'Ring!!
Which one to call myself? Lawyer v investment banker....actually Porsche-Jeck, the former is the lesser of 2 evils here in the UK. People seem to hate lawyers just a little bit less here than investment bankers. After all, people hate lawyers but recognise that they do need lawyers from time to time whereas nobody thinks they NEED investment bankers so when they hear about investment bankers flashing their cash, it makes them jealous and filled with contempt.
As for Mrs. Porsche-Jeck, sure, I'll tell her anything you want just as long as you take me as a passenger around the 'Ring!!
Sep 20, 2007 12:53:47 PM
- Martin Tyler
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Re: Boxster sales drop sharply
Quote:
Porsche-Jeck said:
In my region I definitely observe more women behind the wheel of a 911 (mostly cabs, but cab share is very high over here) than behind the wheel of a Boxster
I see the same in London, but it doesnt make me think the 911 is a womans car either
Sep 20, 2007 5:57:00 PM
- vincesf
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Re: Boxster sales drop sharply
I think a lot of you are missing the point. What I am interpretting is that the car must be soft, if it's easy enough to drive or attracts women drivers. Ergo, Porsche shot themselves in the foot in making the car less attractive to men. Quite frankly, Porsche's across the board are a piece of cake to drive, and some Porsche's even have electronic dual personalities with PASM and Sports Chrono. The trend has and will continue to go towards driver's ease of use, which will enevitably attract less skilled drivers. If car makers make the car too edgy, the car is dogged with bad write ups (not great for the real world). Case in point is Lotus, which noone would characterize as a "women's" car, a great car on the track and some spirited driving, but many tire of on the road and real world driving conditions. I never really liked the shifter on the Elise, as I thought it was going to come off in my hand, as well as other parts I kept repairing on the spot. In short, Porsche, Ferrari, etc. are all making cars that grandpa and even grandma could drive with ease, and invariably you will see that opening up a market for cars beyond just "men". Excuse me while I pull I my 427 AC Cobra out of the garage, I need an arm and leg workout.
vincesf
vincesf
Sep 20, 2007 7:07:14 PM
- easy_rider911
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Re: Boxster sales drop sharply
With all due respect, the thoughts you expressed are illogical and muddled.
If:
"Porsche's across the board are a piece of cake to drive" AND
"The trend has and will continue to go towards driver's ease of use, which will enevitably attract less skilled drivers" THEN
these statements you have made should logically apply equally to both the Boxster AND the 911
however, you state that:
"Porsche shot themselves in the foot in making the [Boxster] less attractive to men"
how is that? Surely by your logic, both cars are softer and therefore equally attractive to women.
However, the whole point of this thread is that it is being postulated that the Boxster is more attractive to women than the 911 is. The statistics don't back your argument IMO. They differentiate between the two cars whereas your logic would imply that both cars are equally "soft".
With respect, why do people equate "less skilled" with women? Such sexist nonsense.
Men overestimate their driving skill and perceive men as being more skilled than women. Women underestimate their skill and perceive men as being less safe.
Enough analysis of your post. I think it needs to be thought through better.
If:
"Porsche's across the board are a piece of cake to drive" AND
"The trend has and will continue to go towards driver's ease of use, which will enevitably attract less skilled drivers" THEN
these statements you have made should logically apply equally to both the Boxster AND the 911
however, you state that:
"Porsche shot themselves in the foot in making the [Boxster] less attractive to men"
how is that? Surely by your logic, both cars are softer and therefore equally attractive to women.
However, the whole point of this thread is that it is being postulated that the Boxster is more attractive to women than the 911 is. The statistics don't back your argument IMO. They differentiate between the two cars whereas your logic would imply that both cars are equally "soft".
With respect, why do people equate "less skilled" with women? Such sexist nonsense.
Men overestimate their driving skill and perceive men as being more skilled than women. Women underestimate their skill and perceive men as being less safe.
Enough analysis of your post. I think it needs to be thought through better.
Sep 20, 2007 8:47:21 PM
- vincesf
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Re: Boxster sales drop sharply
Easy Rider:
It is not my opinion, rather I was interpreting the inferences from the prior posts, and not agreeing with them. Yes, both the Boxster and 911's are a piece of cake to drive, hence my reference to Porsche, and not one vs. the other. The previous posts are inferring that the Boxster is a "chick" car, whereas the 911 is not. I just don't buy into that line of argument, and find that both cars can be driven by anyone; however, what can be extracted from each will always come down to driver's skill, whether you are man, woman, old, young, experienced... As for why sales are down on the Boxster, I can sum it up in one word... Cayman.
It is not my opinion, rather I was interpreting the inferences from the prior posts, and not agreeing with them. Yes, both the Boxster and 911's are a piece of cake to drive, hence my reference to Porsche, and not one vs. the other. The previous posts are inferring that the Boxster is a "chick" car, whereas the 911 is not. I just don't buy into that line of argument, and find that both cars can be driven by anyone; however, what can be extracted from each will always come down to driver's skill, whether you are man, woman, old, young, experienced... As for why sales are down on the Boxster, I can sum it up in one word... Cayman.
Sep 21, 2007 11:55:00 AM
- easy_rider911
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Re: Boxster sales drop sharply
Agreed vincesf Thanks for clarifying your earlier post.
Regarding your conclusion, it's certainly becoming more apparent that the Cayman has been developing a growing following amongst buyers who perceive that it offers a more focussed handling package than that offered by its soft top sibling.
Cayman owners maintain this to be the case arguing that, given more power, the Cayman would outperform a 911. Boxster owners maintain that the Cayman is no better than a Boxster and since it lacks a retractable roof, offers poorer value.
The truth lies at, or between, these 2 poles of opinion. The truth underlying this seemingly never-ending debate is more subjective than one might at first appreciate.
Just my 2 cents...
Thanks for clarifying your earlier post.Regarding your conclusion, it's certainly becoming more apparent that the Cayman has been developing a growing following amongst buyers who perceive that it offers a more focussed handling package than that offered by its soft top sibling.
Cayman owners maintain this to be the case arguing that, given more power, the Cayman would outperform a 911. Boxster owners maintain that the Cayman is no better than a Boxster and since it lacks a retractable roof, offers poorer value.
The truth lies at, or between, these 2 poles of opinion. The truth underlying this seemingly never-ending debate is more subjective than one might at first appreciate.
Just my 2 cents...
Sep 21, 2007 12:46:44 PM
- Porsche-Jeck
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Re: Boxster sales drop sharply
Quote:
vincesf said:
Yes, both the Boxster and 911's are a piece of cake to drive
That's true. When I first discussed the idea of getting a modern Porsche with my wife she was a bit sceptical because she only knew the old aircooled babies from the late 70s/early 80s. Then - after the first testdrives in a 986/996 - she was almost "shocked" how easy to drive these modern Porsches actually are.
But the entire "easy to drive" thing has nothing to do with men/women, IMO there is another demograhic aspect which is way more important: the ageing societies in most western countries. The golden agers
are an important target market for companies like Porsche - they are willing to spend a lot of money for all the expensive luxury options But of course they are not interested in uncomfortable hardcore sportscars.Go figure: in Germany 1/3 of 911 buyers are > 60 y/o.
Hence if 987 is a chick's car, 997 is Grandpa's fast sofa
Just kidding of course, but I really think the marketing guys in Zuffenhausen do more care about the future age demographics than about puristic sports cars for real men vs. soft girly toys on wheels
Sep 21, 2007 1:45:39 PM
- cym104
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Re: Boxster sales drop sharply
Most exotic cars are owned by old men. It's time's cruel irony that by the time you've got the money, you're too old to be cool. Don't believe me? In Chicago we've got a four block area, the "viagra triangle" named for all the guys in their 430s trolling for bimbos.
To me, a 25 year old, the Boxster is truly a driving tool. Mid-engine perfection, no 911 pretense, in no way fem, and you can drop the top in the nice weather for a 360 driving experience. It doesn't get better than that. And these days, barring the track, you can't exercise a 911 to its extremes, so I can't see the point for me at least. I do love the 993...but that's about its looks and sound, and nostalgia!
To me, a 25 year old, the Boxster is truly a driving tool. Mid-engine perfection, no 911 pretense, in no way fem, and you can drop the top in the nice weather for a 360 driving experience. It doesn't get better than that. And these days, barring the track, you can't exercise a 911 to its extremes, so I can't see the point for me at least. I do love the 993...but that's about its looks and sound, and nostalgia!
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